Ma Malakat Emanakum" A Refutation to Brother Ayman;s understanding
-
Peace all,
MOHSANAT can be divided into 3 categories
- self-protected independent (single, divorced, widowed)
- self-protected married
- self-protected engaged to you (MMA due to oath of engagement)
In 424 "mohsanat" refers to all these 3 categories because of the context, and in 425 refers to category #3 i.e. the MMA from the muhsanat.
peace Bro
where did you get these definitions from? source please,(quran , lane etc) or is it a calculated assumption
more over , i did recheck the reference threads but i colud not find your answer to my following questions
In our houses ,who all do we show our private parts ,other than our spouses ?
"Could you explain , how do you posses someone with this oath business which allowes you to have sex with them or even by your least standards, share your private body parts (which you only do with your Zauj)?
peace
sikandar
-
Salam Siki,
Cross-reference is the key to understand words, but sometimes the context overrides the cross-reference meaning to avoid contradictions with other verses. The Quran is its own dictionary, not only through cross-reference, but also through context.
i am sorry brother i am unable to grasp what you are trying to say, '( '( Ma Malkat emnakum is one, and consistent reference/ context , it has only one meaning. if Mohd Asad is producing a new meaning , it must fit and make sense in every ayat which spells MMA ...and if it does not ..it is a fabrication.
.
Sex is only legal through marriage, which is logical.
who's logic yours? or mine ? brother this legality of sex logic was not left for the individual to determin,The big guy up there, defined this logic and sent it down in 70---29,30
sikandar
-
Peace bro Sikandar,
where did you get these definitions from? source please,(quran , lane etc) or is it a calculated assumption
I think we should focus our discussion only in this thread instead of the other thread.
"Mohsanat" meas "protected/fortified" and is contrasted with "fatayat" in 425. "Fatayat" are parent/guardian protected so logically "mohsanat" are self-protected (because they protect their chastity themselves without permission from parents/guardians). This is very simple and I have already said it in my other post. Thus
MOHSANAT = self-protected
FATAYAT = parent/guardian protected.
Now "mohsanat"/self-protected can protect themselves in various ways.
- They protect their chastity while remaining single - self-protected independent (single, divorced, widowed)
- They protect their chastity through marriage - self-protected married
- They protect their chastity through oath of engagement - self-protected engaged (MMA)
"Could you explain , how do you posses someone with this oath business which allowes you to have sex with them or even by your least standards, share your private body parts (which you only do with your Zauj)?
I never said one is allowed to have sex with MMA or "share" one's private parts with them. This shows you are not really paying attention to my posts !! I will keep repeating myself until you stop putting words in my mouth !!
Please read my posts again and pay attention to what I have written in the following two posts
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13789.msg118323#msg118323 (read what I wrote after the table)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13789.msg118347#msg118347
I will quote the relevant paragraphs from the above posts
In the context of this verse (424) the oath would be oath of engagement, and this verse would mean that one is forbidden to get romantically involved with any self-protected person unless one is committed to her/him by oath of engagement, thus making engagement MANDATORY before marriage. This makes sense because then the couple will have time to get to know each other well before getting married. With this understanding, 235-6 and 7029-30 would mean that one cannot expose their private parts to anyone except their spouses and fiances. This would allow romantic involvement with one's fiance without intercourse, in my opinion.
I am open to any better understandings. Can anyone quote the Classical Arabic dictionary meanings of "aw", whether it includes the meaning of "that is" ? Then Mohammad Asad's translation of 7029-30 and 235-6 will make more sense.
-
Peace Warner,
Peace Tanveer
Sorry for the confusion. Please look at the 596-7 in conjunction with 841 and 3350 with regard to which ?Allah as bestowed upon? and which is ?gained as spoils of war?. Also notice the same set of people the gains are distributed in the 2 verses. Chapters 8 and 59 deal quite a lot on the subject of war and gains of war.
59 6 Yusuf Ali
What Allah has bestowed on His Apostle (and taken away) from them for this ye made no expedition with either cavalry or camelry but Allah gives power to His apostles over any He pleases and Allah has power over all things.Wa ma_ afa_al la_hu ala_ rasu_lihi minhum fama_ aujaftum alaihi min hailiw wa la_ rika_biw wa la_kin nal la_ha yusal lithu rusulahu_ ala_ may yasya_ wal la_hu ala_ kuli sai in qadir
59 7Yusuf Ali
What Allah has bestowed on His Apostle (and taken away) from the people of the townships belongs to Allah to His Apostle and to kindred and orphans the needy and the wayfarer; in order that it may not (Merely) make a circuit between the wealth among you. So take what the Apostle assigns to you and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment.Ma afa_ al la_hu ala_ rasu_lihi min ahlil qura_ falil la_hi wa lir rasu_li walizil qurba_ wal yata_ma_ wal masa_kini wab nis sabili kaila_ yaku_na du_latambainal agniya_i minkum wa ma_ a_ta_kumur rasu_lu fakuzu_ hu wa ma_naha_kum anhu fantahu_ wataqul la_h in nal la_ha sadidul iqa_b
8 41Yusuf Ali
And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war) a fifth share is assigned to Allah and to the apostle and to near relatives orphans the needy and the wayfarer if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the day of testing the day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things.Wa'lamu_ annama_ ganimtum min syai'in fa anna lilla_hi khumusahu_ wa lir rasu_li wa lizil qurba_ wal yata_ma_ wal masa_kini wabnis sabili in kuntum a_mantum billa_hi wa ma_ anzalna_ 'ala_ 'abdina_ yaumal furqa_ni yaumal taqal jam'a_n(i), walla_hu 'ala_ kulli syai'in qadir(un).
It would mean that the MMA mentioned in 3350 were "bestowed" upon the Prophet, meaning he was allowed to marry those women whom he was committed to by oath of support or engagement.
-
Peace bro Sikandar,
235-6 and 7029-30 would mean that one cannot expose their private parts to anyone except their spouses and fiances. This would allow romantic involvement with one's fiance without intercourse, in my opinion.
peace Bro,
Now ,i have doubts regarding my origin, May be, i am THE Alien from Europa'. Sharing sexual body parts with finaces, in a manner ,what one does with spouses ??? Brother thanks for making me aware of this .
Bro warner
i greatly appreciate your inputs brother,
siki
-
Peace bro Sikandar,
I think that Mohammad Asad's translation makes more sense without causing any contradictions
- and who are mindful of their chastity,
(30) with any but their spouses - that is, those whom they rightfully possess - for then, behold, they are free of all blame,
- and who are mindful of their chastity,
(6) with any but their spouses - that is, those whom they rightfully possess
This makes sense. MMA here can be translated as "those you are committed to by oath" and in this context would mean "oath of marriage".
The only thing I would like to check is if Classical Arabic dictionaries give "that is" as one of the possible meanings of "aw". The mystery is then solved !!
424 would then mean that "mohsanat"/self-protected are forbidden to you unless you are married to them (committed by oath of marriage) and then 425 has no contradiction.
-
Peace Tanveer
Quote Tanveer
The words used for slave in al-qur'aan are "imaa" (see 2432) and "raqaba" (see 492, 589, 583).
The word used for slave is "abad". In 2432 ?ibadikum? and ?Imaaikum? is for ?male slave? and ?female slave?. Raqaba is for ?neck? only in the context of ?freeing of a neck/freeing of a slave?.
Sometimes ?ghilma? (5224) meaning youth, young man is also used as servants.
-
Peace all,
ENGLISH USAGE OF "OR"
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
or1 /r; unstressed r/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
?conjunction 1. (used to connect words, phrases, or clauses representing alternatives) books or magazines; to be or not to be.
2. (used to connect alternative terms for the same thing) the Hawaiian, or Sandwich, Islands.
3. (used in correlation) either ? or; or ? or; whether ? or.
4. (used to correct or rephrase what was previously said) His autobiography, or rather memoirs, will soon be ready for publication.
5. otherwise; or else Be here on time, or we'll leave without you.
6. Logic. the connective used in disjunction.Does Arabic allow a similar usage ??
-
Peace Siki and Tanveer
21 91
And (remember) her who guarded her chastity/private parts We breathed into her of Our Spirit and We made her and her son a Sign for all peoples.
Transliteration Wal lati ahsanat farjaha_ fanafakna_ fiha_ mir ru_hina_ wa ja'alna_ha_ wab naha_ a_yatal lil'a_lamin
I guess the above verse gives a better understanding of ?farja/private parts?
-
Peace Tanveer
Tanveer It would mean that the MMA mentioned in 3350 were "bestowed" upon the Prophet, meaning he was allowed to marry those women whom he was committed to by oath of support or engagement.
Do you mean others were not ?bestowed upon by Allah? and not allowed to marry by Allah.
In 3350 please notice the difference between WIVES and MMA.
wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers
thy right hand possesses of those whom Allah hath given thee (as gains of war) -
Peace Siki and Tanveer
21 91
And (remember) her who guarded her chastity/private parts We breathed into her of Our Spirit and We made her and her son a Sign for all peoples.
Transliteration Wal lati ahsanat farjaha_ fanafakna_ fiha_ mir ru_hina_ wa ja'alna_ha_ wab naha_ a_yatal lil'a_lamin
I guess the above verse gives a better understanding of ?farja/private parts?
excellent bro
thanks for finding evidence in support of what i thought about Mohsinnat in my openning post and i quote.Let?s translate this SUBSET OF NISA ?Mohsannat? as every/any women who do not belong to the prohibited list, is chaste, eligible as HALLAL (permitted), and see what happens,
peace
sikandar -
Peace Tanveer
Just as Samia (Where is she anyway?) pointed earlier the use of both AND and OR with regard to Zouja and/or MMA can not happen if we use the ?that is/otherwise/alternatively/AKA? argument.In 3350 both AND and OR occur in connection to Zouja and MMA, will this not create a logical fallacy?
Samia In doing so, we should take into consideration that MME apply to both genders, and that they are mentioned as an alternative to a spouse (azwajukum or MME), except when addressing the prophet, we have (azwajuka wa mmE).
With the THAT IS/ OR ELSE argument of AY and Tanveer the following verse will make no sense in the use of MMA.
24 31 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands their fathers their husbands' fathers their sons their husbands' sons their brothers or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons or their women or the captives whom their right hands possess or male servants free of physical needs or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah that ye may attain Bliss.
Wa qul lilmumina_ti yagdudna min absa_rihin na wa yahfazna furu_jahun na wa la_ yubdina zinatahun na il la_ ma_ zahara minha_ wal yadribna bikumurihin na fala_ juyu_bihin na wa la_ yubdina zinatahun na il la_ libuu_latihin na au a_ba_ ihin na au a_ba_i buu_latihin na au abna_ ihin na au abna_i buu_latihin na au ihwa_nihin na au bani ihwa_nihin na au bani ahwa_tihin na au nisa_ ihin na au ma_ malakat aima_nuhun na awit ta_ bi ina gairil ulil irbati minar rija_li awit tiflil lazina lamyaz haru_ ala_ aura_tin nisa_i wala_ yadrib na biarjulihin na liyulama ma_ yuhfina min zinatihin na wa tu_bu_ ilal la_hi jamian ay yuhal muminu_na la'al lakum tuflihu_n
-
Peace All
Attached flow chart depicts my understanding of different women described in Quran. Inshallah it would cater for every situation about all the categories of women, in every aya of Quran. you may like to verify by testing it
please click the attachment to see the Flow chart
peace
siki
-
Peace Warner,
"Ma malakat aymanukum" means "those you committed to by oath" and the oath could be oath of financial support, adoption, engagement, or marriage depending on the context. The MMA mentioned in 3350 seems to be referring to different group of women than in 7029-30 and 235-6 based on the context.
In 2431, the MMA refers to those committed to by oath of adoption or financial support, and not war captives, for which the word "asra" is used in al-qur'aan.
-
Peace Tanveer
Tanveer Ma malakat aymanukum" means "those you committed to by oath" and the oath could be oath of financial support, adoption, engagement, or marriage depending on the context. The MMA mentioned in 3350 seems to be referring to different group of women than in 7029-30 and 235-6 based on the context.
In 2431, the MMA refers to those committed to by oath of adoption or financial support, and not war captives, for which the word "asra" is used in al-qur'aan.
Sorry Tanveer
Ma malakat aymanukum means ?What your right hands possess?.
Basically,
Ma (What)
Malakat (ownership/possession)
Aymanakum/Yaminukum (Right hand, Right side, Blessing)Asra means captive. To be a war captive/prisoner it has to be enemy combatant (possibly males of fighting age) from the defeated camp. But women and children belonging to the enemy camp/city can not fall in to Asra. They are MMA and they will be assigned to the believers . The Quran lays out a separate set of laws to control and subjugate them at the same time to make sure they are not harmed and compelled and to assure their welfare. Correct me if I am wrong, when we look at the laws regarding captives such as, release free or for ransom or punishment or banishment these can not apply to the women and children. Please read my post on MMA in which I have explained this in detail.
-
Peace Warner,
You used the word "captive" in your translation. MMA does not mean "captive" per your own explanation. The women and children belonging to the enemies should be returned to them unless the husband or father is dead, in which case one can be committed to support them financially or adopt them, and then they become MMA. MMA does not have to be only in case of war; one can commit by oath to ANY other person who is in need and then that person will become MMA.
"Oath" is one of the meanings of "YMN" per Lane Lexicon.
Thus MMA means "those you are committed to by oath", and the oath could be of different kinds. The context of usage of MMA determines what kind of oath is being referred to.
-
Peace Tanveer
When I quote the Quran in my posts I use Yusuf Ali or Pickthal since I have them in my pc and it is easier for me to use them although we find both carry many mistakes. Thank you for pointing this so I can explain it clearly.
Normally anyone from the defeated enemy camp is a captive but the women, children and the weak are treated differently than captive combatant. The way Quran deals with the two sets of captives are different. The women and possibly children are assigned to male or female guardians/masters to live in their homes with certain rules and rights whereas the fighting male captives are dealt differently.
-
Peace Warner,
Sorry Tanveer
Ma malakat aymanukum means ?What your right hands possess?.
Basically,
Ma (What)
Malakat (ownership/possession)
Aymanakum/Yaminukum (Right hand, Right side, Blessing)Yes, you should indeed be sorry. When 589 talks about fasting three days is it for breaking "our right hand" (aymanukum) or breaking our oath? Is 1691 talking about breaking the right hand? Is 5108 talking about returning someone's "right hand"? Is 433 talking about the tying of your right hand? Are 1694, 912, 913, 662, etc., etc., ... talking about the right hand?!!
Even without the many examples in the great reading that are too numerous to list here and where "aymanukum" clearly means "your oath", we can see that it cannot mean "your right hand" by any stretch of the imagination. How can it be "what your right hand possess"? Are they some key chains that you hold in your right hand? Are they like a Barbie doll that you hold in your right hand? Surely, you can see that even without all the evidence from the great reading, the meaning of "right hand" doesn't make any sense except in the fantasies of medieval chauvinistic Abbassid era interpreters.
Asra means captive. To be a war captive/prisoner it has to be enemy combatant (possibly males of fighting age) from the defeated camp. But women and children belonging to the enemy camp/city can not fall in to Asra. They are MMA and they will be assigned to the believers . The Quran lays out a separate set of laws to control and subjugate them at the same time to make sure they are not harmed and compelled and to assure their welfare. Correct me if I am wrong, when we look at the laws regarding captives such as, release free or for ransom or punishment or banishment these can not apply to the women and children. Please read my post on MMA in which I have explained this in detail.
Is there even any passage that links "ma malakat aymanukum" and war? How would you like it if the chairs were turned and your women and children were assigned to the "believers" that capture your city? Is getting women and children assigned to them one of the perks of being a believer? I guess that is a sure way to make believers out of rapists and sadists who would diligently apply the "laws to control and subjugate" them.
People, we have made much progress in our understanding but it doesn't matter how much one understands or how educated one is if their heart can't see. Without all the evidence of "amanukum" meaning "oath" and even without the great reading itself, if people don't inherently feel bothered by "assigning women and children to believers to control and subjugate them" REGARDLESS OF THE REASON, then there is nothing more to say.
May the god have mercy on us.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Ayman,
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13789.msg118187#msg118187
My Quoteas an aftermath of any war arises a strategic and a humanitarian dilemma. I believe as a solution to this crisis, once the city?s wealth is divided among the fighters, the women and children are assigned to guardians under an oath to protect them look after them and keep them in their houses.(2431)
No wonder you are upset. I just realized its your name.
As you can clearly see above I am not against the definition of ?Oath? for yamin (aymanakum). This meaning is found in the verses you gave but also the same words are used for right side and right hand found in the following verses 1952, 2080, 2830 ,717,1648,1771, 1817-18,2017,2069 (yamin- ayman) and 568, 568, 9018(maymanah). Moses had the staff in his right hand not wrapped in an oath whatever that means.
Tanveer
Tanveer Thus MMA means "those you are committed to by oath", and the oath could be of different kinds. The context of usage of MMA determines what kind of oath is being referred to
Please explain malakath means ?committed? or ?controlled??
The term afa_al la_hu 596-7 (please read in which context the term is used in the verses) is the same used in 3350 in relation to MMA. Do you find the same term used anywhere else to mean any thing else other than gains from wars and such.
Also,
Are the MMA equal to her guardian/master/or the person who took the oath ?