The Message & TNR Update
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Peace,
Both The Message and The Natural republic are currently undergoing an update with the publisher iuniverse.
In this process, there is a 2 week period given to make minor/small edits or corrections.
I am posting the link to both works in the hope that any error or comments can be made now before the final print.
http//www.free-minds.org/QT.zip
http//www.free-minds.org/TNR.docregards,
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Peace bro Layth,
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In 3421 "know" should be changed to "distinguish".
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It should be "lamb" (singular) instead of "lambs" in the FIRST occurrence in the following verse
3824 He said "He has wronged you by asking to combine your lambs with his lambs.
SHOULD BE
3824 He said "He has wronged you by asking to combine your lamb with his lambs.
- In 2286 it should be "bear" instead of "bare".
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Salam bro Layth,
In the following two verses there is no "wa" between "alrukka3i" and "alssujoodi" in 2125 and 2226, so they should be translated just like you have translated 9112,
2125 And We have made the Sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take the site of Abraham for connection. And We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael "You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for the kneeling, the prostrating."
OR "those who kneel, those who prostrate".
2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the Sanctuary "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My Sanctuary for those who will partake, and those who will enforce, and the kneeling, the prostrating."
OR "those who will kneel, those who will prostrate".
Also "taaifeena" is the same in the two verses so the same English word should be used in both translations. It should be either "visit" in both, or "partake" in both.
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peace Layth, all,
Whilst I do like "The Message" as a translation it still contains significant errors (like all translations) in my opinion. This is one of the reasons I've slowly drifted away from promoting views, in favour of tools to reach understandings. This is the way forward.
I recommend sticking as close as possible to the grammar of the Arabic in a translation.
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Peace bro Wakas, all,
I agree with you bro Wakas. For example in my opinion the two verses I referenced above should be translated as "humbly submitting" or "humbly hearing and obeying", and 2125 should be "station/stance/persistence of Abraham" in my understanding. There are numerous other places where I disagree with the PM translations and some articles in TNR. Just wanted to get on record for that !
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Dear wakas & Tanveer,
I hear your comments and respect them. However, as much as I myself like to be a perfectionist, I believe it is more important to get the message of God Alone out to the people through all mediums rather than holding back until we have all the answers or all agree (which may never happen).
Most of us have come to this path through just a glimpse of truth be it in someone article, in a writing or in a discussion.
Let there be areas of disagreement, the most important thing is that people accept the Quran and do the research for themselves.
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Let there be areas of disagreement, the most important thing is that people accept the Quran and do the research for themselves.
I have a great respect for the Site and the work been done here but I would like to add
We should take extreme care while translating the book, we may misguide people rather help them.
Whenever you translate Quran without taking into consideration the history, the Prophet, and the events that took place at that time YOU are not helping. -
salaam layth.
I agree with you. It's important to move forward, as long as we all agree the Quran alone is our source then we are united, any points of disagreement on understanding/interpreting of the scripture are just things for us to discuss and to push further our study of the scripture.
Remember 20114
Then High above all is God, the King, the True. And do not be hasty with the Qur'an before its inspiration is completed to you, and say "My Lord, increase my knowledge."
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I will state Rajah that history cannot be fully trusted.
It is clear that history has lied to us about our focal point/qiblah, which is the sacred temple, which from the Quran does not seem to be mecca, but is Becca (396).
The Quran also points to Muhammed being near the ruins of Lot, which could not have been mecca.
It is too easy to fall into some traps when using history to interpret the Quran.
In fact I'm sure Layth will agree that both myself and him even when we were first Quran alone still kept old baggage from our sectarian days. The less we do that, the clearer the Quran becomes.
My two cents. )
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Dear wakas & Tanveer,
I hear your comments and respect them. However, as much as I myself like to be a perfectionist, I believe it is more important to get the message of God Alone out to the people through all mediums rather than holding back until we have all the answers or all agree (which may never happen).
Most of us have come to this path through just a glimpse of truth be it in someone article, in a writing or in a discussion.
Let there be areas of disagreement, the most important thing is that people accept the Quran and do the research for themselves.
I agree with the above and I did not say anything to the contrary. I just felt the scale of the problem should be highlighted because "In this process, there is a 2 week period given to make minor/small edits or corrections." does not quite cover it.
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I will state Rajah that history cannot be fully trusted.
Well I never said History should be fully trusted, I said History should be taken into consideration while translating and YOU PROVED MY POINT intentionally or un intentionally mentioning about MECCA AND BECCA.
Hope you understand.
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Peace bro Layth,
In 2127, it is not "of the sanctuary" but "FROM the sanctuary" (MIN albayt).
2127 And as Abraham raised the foundations FROM the Sanctuary (alqawa3id MIN albayt) with Ishmael "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."
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Dear wakas & Tanveer,
I hear your comments and respect them. However, as much as I myself like to be a perfectionist, I believe it is more important to get the message of God Alone out to the people through all mediums rather than holding back until we have all the answers or all agree (which may never happen).
Most of us have come to this path through just a glimpse of truth be it in someone article, in a writing or in a discussion.
Let there be areas of disagreement, the most important thing is that people accept the Quran and do the research for themselves.
Peace,
Yes, I also completely agree, I do not agree on many things, but TNR is certainly a good work when it comes to matters of State. Keep up the good work!
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Salam bro Layth,
It should be "those who are agreeable to it with you"/"ma taaba lakum", instead of "those whom you see fit", and "two at a time, and three at a time, and four at a time"/"mathna wa thulatha wa ruba3a", or "twos, and threes, and fours", in 43
43 And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then you may marry those who are agreeable to it with you of the women twos, and threes, and fours. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one, or to whom you are committed to by oath. This is best that you do not face financial hardship.
REFERENCE LANE LEXICON
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
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Salam bro Layth,
In 424 and 425, it should be "self-protected", instead of "already married" or "independent"
424 And the self-protected/those who protect themselves from the women, except those committed to you by oath.......................
425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the believing self-protected women, then from those committed to you by oath of the believing young women. God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be protected, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. If they become protected, then any of them who comes with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is for the self-protected women of the retribution. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.
In 424, if you use "already married", it implies that the "ma malakat aymanukum" in that verse are also already married.
Self-protected includes independent and married and gives a consistent translation in 424 and 425.
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Salam bro Layth,
2217 They ask you about the restricted month "Is there fighting in it?" Say "Much fighting is in it, and to repel from the path of God and to disbelieve in IT, and AT the Restricted Temple, to drive its inhabitants out FROM IT is far greater with God, and persecution is worse than being killed." And they still will fight you until they turn you back from your system if they are able. And whoever of you turns back from his system, and he dies while disbelieving, then these have nullified their work in this life and the next; these are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide eternally!
There should be no AT before "the restricted temple".
The words MIN HU (from it) are omitted in the regular translation.
WA KUFR BI HI Is it disbelieving in Allah or disbelieving IN IT (The way of Allah)
"Wa kufr bihi" does not mean disbelieve in Allah but disbelieve IN IT (the way of Allah) because the subject before "kufr bihi" is not Allah but the way of Allah therefore it is disbelieving in the way of Allah and not in Allah.
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Salam bro Layth,
In 2225, two words "al-'aakif" and "al-baadi" are mistranslated
2225 Those who have rejected and repel from the path of God and the Restricted Temple that We have made for the people, for the dweller or the visitor to it; and whoever inclines to evil action in it, We will let them taste a painful retribution.
Masjid Al-Haram, if it is a physical building would be a place of upholding salat, and not a city or a town, or a house where people DWELL.
'AAKIF one who devotes or dedicates oneself to, one who is occupied with or engaged in, one who applies one's self assiduously, one committed to.
BAADI the one who left where one was to search for clarity
The correct translation of 2225 would therefore be as follows
2225 Those who have rejected and repel from the path of God and the Restricted Temple that We have made for the people, for the one committed to it and the one who left to find clarity; and whoever inclines to evil action in it, We will let them taste a painful retribution.
If we look under the Arabic root "BDW", we will find that it has meanings such as "made apparent/clear" (3947-48, 4533, etc.), "occur to/think of" (1235), and "left where they were" (3320). The word "badw" is applied to people who leave where they are to search for something such as grazing places or water. So we can see that the themes of leaving, searching and making clear/apparent are the main themes that run through that word. Thus, "al-baadi" in the context of 2225 is someone who left what they were on (examples include Christianity, Sunnism, or any inherited dogma). They left in order to search for what? From the other meanings of "BDW", it can be deduced that they left to search for clarity. Thus, the translation of "al-baadi" is "one who left to search for clarity".
