Tasreef/Crossreference understanding of Jesus's deeds---Miracle belief rejected

warner

Peace Arnold

Does the Quraan say that Mary was given to the Temple ?

arnoldyasin

Peace,

The storu was not refuted, they made their point clear and I mine. In the end it came down too that there were more logical answers for the story, but even if there are far more logical answers, people still want to hang on to miracles as they believe it is necessary for God to 'prove' His Power. For me, the Universe is already enough.

I stick to the more logical answers, as the Quran also explains Jesus's deeds being told metaphorically as I explained above using the Quran alone, then it is also logical that there is also a logical answer for his birth.

But we had this discussion, you can believe it to be a 'miracle' or a more logical story that is even completely in line with newly understood history.

Warner, in 335-37 the mother of Mary already dedicated her child to God's service, her tone already shows this some kind of special service. Then later on we see Mary being given to Zacheria's custody in the Temple. 1+1=2 for me.

warner

Peace Arnold

AY Warner, in 335-37 the mother of Mary already dedicated her child to God's service, her tone already shows this some kind of special service. Then later on we see Mary being given to Zacheria's custody in the Temple. 1+1=2 for me

There is nothing in the Quran to suggest that family of Imaran or mother of Mary are transgressors. If Mary ended up in a temple the fault is Zakarias since he was her guardian. Also nothing to suggest mary being given to zakaria?s custody in the temple. Are you suggesting Zakaria is at fault? Also there is no mention of a temple/masjid in the Quran to which the prophets such as Zakaria were attached to.

warner

Peace Arnold

Arnold Of course Allah can do it, this is not the discussion. It is about what falls under Allah's Laws as he clearly says He will not brake His Laws. These include the Laws of the Universe.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13174.msg110222#msg110222

Can you kindly tell me your observation that "Allah will not break His Laws" is based on which verse/s ?

warner

Peace

I believe Mary was handed over to Zakaria as the guardian since her parents died.

19 28

Yusuf Ali "O sister of Aaron! thy father was not a man of evil nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
Pickthall Oh sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.
Ya_ ukhta ha_ru_na ma_ ka_na abu_kim ra a sau iw wa ma_ ka_nat um muki baghiy ya_

In the above verse we can see people referring to Mary?s Father and Mother in the past tense. Also if Mary brings a child out of marriage her parents will be the first to worry or confront and we do not see any mention of them here.

Ghulam_Rasool

I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe (Al-Imran 349)

My question to all you people who deny the great miracles that Allah showed through the Messiah (alaihi salaam), is why does the Holy Quran say after mentioning every "supernatural miracle" of Jesus (alaihi salaam), but does not add this phrase after any of his more normal deeds (such as declaring what his followers should eat and store in their houses)? The phrase bithni Allahi added after every supernatural miracle mentioned in this verse is to show that whereas these miracles appeared to have been done by Jesus (alaihi salaam), in reality they were Signs from Allah, because Jesus (alaihi salaam) is only a human being. If all of these miracles, as some people foolishly contend, were metaphors and not supernatural, what would the reason be for "bithni Allahi"?

Ghulam_Rasool

And there is another verse where the miracles bestowed to Jesus Christ (alaihi salaam) are mentioned as well

Then will Allah say O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said 'This is nothing but evident magic.' (Al-Maidah 5110)

Again we can see the phrase bithnee (by My leave) mentioned after every supernatural miracle.

Furthermore, the verse says that Jesus (alaihi salaam) miraculously cured those born blind, which has to be physical blindness, because Allah does not create anyone spiritually blind.

Jazak Allah khair

arnoldyasin

Peace,

First you must ask yourself

Why would you hold on to believing in miracles when much more logical answers can be given? What purpose does belief in miracles serve? To prove God's Power? That is nonsense of course, as why would He need to prove Himself while it is Him who installed the Laws of the Universe in the first place. It is like building a house and then demolish it to show my strenght, nonsense of course. Building of the house out of nothing already shows the Wisdom and Power of God. The Truth is what makes people believe, not miracles or magic. Why do you think we must research nature? see 3191
Warner, I have discussed that issue already before. Two views came out of it. One is that Allah does not change His Ways is only with with handling people. But this in my eyes means, that the Laws that govern His Requital in our Universe with people are the only fixed Laws, through understanding Nature, we can see that all of the Laws in the Universe are fixed, but also, that many Laws that govern His Requital, are intertwined with other Laws of Nature.

Thus by my understanding ALL Laws are fixed and unchangable in the Universe, this is Allah's Kalimaat, Word and Decree.

I have already discussed this before in many threads, and I have no time for again going through all the subjects over and over.

AaRoN

yusha - nothing happens without god's allowance (idhni allaHi) - look it up

Ghulam_Rasool

and the unbelievers among them said 'This is nothing but evident magic.' (Al-Maidah 5110)

I also forgot to mention, that if all of these acts by Jesus (alaihi salaam) were all metaphorical and "natural", etc., why would the disbelievers accuse him of sihr (sorcery). Evidently, this is another proof that that which Jesus (alaihi salaam) performed were manifest supernatural miracles from Allah.

Why would you hold on to believing in miracles when much more logical answers can be given?

What matters is what the truth is. We should always pursue the Truth, no matter how harsh or "illogical" it may appear. Interpreting the Holy Quran based on what you want it to mean and based on your own preconceived notions is immoral and wrong. Allah is the One who dictates to us, our function is to simply humbly submit to Him unconditionally

Nay, whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good, He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Al-Baqarah 2112)

What purpose does belief in miracles serve? To prove God's Power? That is nonsense of course, as why would He need to prove Himself while it is Him who installed the Laws of the Universe in the first place. It is like building a house and then demolish it to show my strenght, nonsense of course. Building of the house out of nothing already shows the Wisdom and Power of God. The Truth is what makes people believe, not miracles or magic

The Signs of Allah are for those who already believe, it only strengthens their faith and makes them know that indeed Allah has Power to help anyone, but will He help them specifically yes.

Regarding the miracles for Jesus (alaihi salaam), Allah said Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe (Al-Imran 349)

Look at the example of Prophet Abraham (alaihi salaam)

My Lord! Show me how Thou givest life to the dead. He said Dost thou not then believe? He said Yea! but to satisfy My own undertaking. (Al-Baqarah 2260)

You see Prophet Abraham (alaihi salaam) had unconditional faith and trust in Allah, but he still beseeched Him for a miracle of giving life to the dead to strengthen his faith and make him a witness of the Power of Allah.

arnoldyasin

and the unbelievers among them said 'This is nothing but evident magic.' (Al-Maidah 5110)

I also forgot to mention, that if all of these acts by Jesus (alaihi salaam) were all metaphorical and "natural", etc., why would the disbelievers accuse him of sihr (sorcery). Evidently, this is another proof that that which Jesus (alaihi salaam) performed were manifest supernatural miracles from Allah.

Sihr means much more then just magic, Sihr means witchcraft, sorcery, eloquence, seduction, falsehood, deception, turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner, anything the source of which is not quite visible, showing off falsehood in the form of truth, mischief.

They accused prophets of showing off falsehood in the form of truth.

What matters is what the truth is. We should always pursue the Truth, no matter how harsh or "illogical" it may appear. Interpreting the Holy Quran based on what you want it to mean and based on your own preconceived notions is immoral and wrong.

Using logic is wrong? No, holding on to traditions written 300 years after the Prophet as complete truths, that is wrong.

The Signs of Allah are for those who already believe, it only strengthens their faith and makes them know that indeed Allah has Power to help anyone, but will He help them specifically yes.

For me, the universe is already a sign enough...

warner

Peace Arnold

Arnold Warner, I have discussed that issue already before. Two views came out of it. One is that Allah does not change His Ways is only with with handling people. But this in my eyes means, that the Laws that govern His Requital in our Universe with people are the only fixed Laws, through understanding Nature, we can see that all of the Laws in the Universe are fixed, but also, that many Laws that govern His Requital, are intertwined with other Laws of Nature.

Thus by my understanding ALL Laws are fixed and unchangable in the Universe, this is Allah's Kalimaat, Word and Decree

I have already discussed this before in many threads, and I have no time for again going through all the subjects over and over.

I am not asking for another explanation. Kindly quote the verse which you used as evidence to prove against the miracle birth of Jesus that Allahs Law does not change.

I will not trouble you after that, God willing.

arnoldyasin

Peace,

634, 6116, 1064, 1777, 1827, 3338, 3362, 3543, 4085, 4823

There is no changing in God's Ways and Word

4823 This is the Law of God which has been in force since older times. And
never will you find any change in Gods Law. (Sunnatillah = Gods Law in
practice. Kalimatillah = Gods Word = Gods Law in theory 3139, 1777,
3338, 3362, 3543, 4085, 4823)

3543 Their arrogance in the land and their evil schemes! Yet an evil scheme
engulfs its designers. Are they waiting for anything but the way the ancients
were dealt with? Yes! No change you will ever find in the Laws of God, and no
deviation you will ever find in the Laws of God.

And next to the Revelation, is the whole Universe considered the Kitab, Book, of Allah

638 (There are signs the Universe to behold.) All creatures on earth and all
the birds that fly on two wings are communities like you. We did not omit any
knowledge from this Book. And they all will be gathered to their Lord in the end.

Thus no Decree in the Universe will be changed.

As all creatures follow the Laws to fulfill their purpose of existence

2441 Do you not realize that God, He it is Whom all beings in the heavens
and the earth glorify, and the birds, with their wings outspread, as they fly in
columns. All of them know their SALAAT and TASBEEH
God is Aware of what they do to fulfill His Plan.

This is why we must explore nature

3191 (Such men and women of understanding keep reflecting upon how
Gods Laws operate in the Universe) Standing, sitting, and reclining, they
observe, and reflect upon God's creation of the heavens and the earth and
wonder, "Our Lord! You have not created all this without Purpose. High Above
You are from creating anything in vain! Save us, then, from being negligent in
attaining knowledge and thus, getting condemned to Fire. (When humans
harness the forces of Nature and use them for the common good of all, they
move away from Hell and close to Paradise in both lives 4513-14)

This is a very summarized version of a vast subject. I have exams at the moment, and thus cannot engage in a discussion on this subject at the moment.

AaRoN

Interpreting the Holy Quran based on what you want it to mean and based on your own preconceived notions is immoral and wrong.

hahaha you hypocrite, you are doing the same with ahadith and your entire preconceived notion of what the quran says based on all of these established traditions and views.

so you're just as immoral as any of the rest of us, and just as wrong. enjoy yourself, thanks for the laughs

nadeem

Peace,

Please refrain from personal attacks.

Nadeem

AaRoN

so saying that interpreting the quran yourself is immoral and wrong isn't a personal attack?

i disagree with that notion

warner

Peace be with you

The thesis on rejection of the miracle birth of Jesus and miracles performed by Jesus in particular and rejection of all miracles performed by the Messengers of God and also the rejection of miracles mentioned in the Quraan in general is based on the premise that ?Allah does not change His laws?. This argument is also used by few others at FM to reject miracles mentioned in the Quraan. The most quoted evidence in favor of this position is ?Allah does not change His sunnat? (Sunnatallah).Tanveer and Fahad and few others have refuted Arnolds theory quite strongly but I found they missed the basic premise this topic is based on.

The reason I write this post is to clear the misunderstanding on the theory that ?God does not change His laws?.

Lets analyze how sound Arnold?s Tasreef/cross reference is to arrive at the foundation of this topic that God does not change His laws.

Quotes by Arnold

Allah does not change His Laws in the Universe, as His fixed Laws express His Will in the world of Khalq, Creation.

God doesn't break His laws. Of course He can, but He says in the Quran He will not break them, this includes laws of Nature.

Kun doesn?t apply at all that this decree will go against the Laws of Nature, it only implies a certainty.

Allah creates things with a Purpose and according to His Laws.

That is nonsense of course, as why would He need to prove Himself while it is Him who installed the Laws of the Universe in the first place

But this in my eyes means, that the Laws that govern His Requital in our Universe with people are the only fixed Laws, through understanding Nature, we can see that all of the Laws in the Universe are fixed, but also, that many Laws that govern His Requital, are intertwined with other Laws of Nature.

Thus by my understanding ALL Laws are fixed and unchangable in the Universe, this is Allah's Kalimaat, Word and Decree.

There is no changing in God's Ways and Word

4823 This is the Law of God which has been in force since older times. And
never will you find any change in God?s Law. (?Sunnatillah? = God?s Law in
practice. ?Kalimatillah? = God?s Word = God?s Law in theory 3139, 1777,
3338, 3362, 3543, 4085, 4823)

3543 Their arrogance in the land and their evil schemes! Yet an evil scheme
engulfs its designers. Are they waiting for anything but the way the ancients
were dealt with? Yes! No change you will ever find in the Laws of God, and no
deviation you will ever find in the Laws of God.

Thus no Decree in the Universe will be changed.

As all creatures follow the Laws to fulfill their purpose of existence

I want you to take a look at how Arnold moves from sunnat and sunnattallah to way, decree, law, Law of God, God?s Law inpractice, kalimat, word, decree, God?s Law in theory and to law of nature without any cross reference.

The words in the Quran should not be spread like marmalade and certainly not the word ?Law?. In the Quraan each word has a particular and selective use and a purpose and is used very diligently to bring out the exact meaning. Law is a heavy word; more so in the Quraan. Simply, we can not even say something is forbidden according to our whims, imagine translating the words without connection as ?Law? without any support. When you apply the word ?law? in the wrong place it distorts the meaning and also it sounds as if that God has written laws for Himself and whenever God breaks these alleged self inflicted laws our boys holler ?Foul?. Now men have a control over God on what He wills and what He does. Clever isn?t it.

Let?s look whether sunnat/sunnatallah means laws/law of God.

Siin-Nun-Nun =

sanna vb. (1)
pcple. pass. 1526, 1528, 1533

sinn n.f. 545, 545

sunnah n.f. (pl. sunan) 3137, 426, 838, 1513, 1777, 1777, 1855, 3338, 3362, 3362, 3543, 3543, 3543, 4085, 4823, 4823

LL, V4, p 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164

From PRL
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

If you check with the above verses the meaning of sunnat is way, manner, style. In 545 many make the mistake of translating as ?wounds equal for equal? whereas it should be ?in the equal MANNER?.

3 137
Yusuf Ali Many were the Ways of Life that have passed away before you travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who rejected truth.

Transliteration Qad khalat min qablikum sunan(un), fa siru_ fil ardi fanzuru_ kaifa ka_na'a_qibatul mukazzibin(a).

17 77
Yusuf Ali (This was Our) way with the apostles We sent before thee thou wilt find no change in Our ways.
Sunnata man qad arsalna_ qablaka mir rusulina_ wa la_ tajidu lisunnatina_ tahwila_(n).

33 62
Pickthall That was the way of Allah in the case of those who passed away of old; thou wilt not find for the way of Allah aught of power to change.

Transliteration Sun natal la_hi fil lazina halau min qabl wa lan tajida lisun natil la_hi tabdila_

35 43
Yusuf Ali On account of their arrogance in the land and their plotting of Evil. But the plotting of Evil will hem in only the authors thereof. Now are they but looking for the way the ancients were dealt with? But no change wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing) no turning off wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing).

Transliteration Istikba_ran fil ardi wa makras say yi wa la_ yahiqul makrus say yi u il la_ bi ahlil fahal yansuru_na il la_ sunatal aw walin falan tajida lisun natil la_hi tabdila_ walan tajida lisun natil la_hi tahwila_

Please note the use of sunnat and sunnatillah in the verses and also sunnatal awwaaleen (the way the ancients) in 3543. Even Arnold translated sunnat as ?the WAY? in 3543.

To highlight the correct use of sunnat let me give an example.

?The mayor said We will lock up all criminals for a very long time. This is the way we will deal with the criminals and even in the past we have dealt with them in the same way. We will not change our way of dealing with the criminals?

The above quote is ?the way? certain mayor deals with the criminals. Can you call this law? Law is something far from this and the meaning does not even come close. The word ?Law? is a very important word we can not use it indiscriminately in every place as it suits us.

kalimah

The other word Arnold changes from ?Word? to ?Decree? to ?Law? and then to ?Gods law in theory? and ?law of nature? is kalima/kalimatullah.

Please check the following meanings.

Kaf-Lam-Miim = To speak, express.

kalimah n.f. (pl. kalimat, and kalim) - word, command, agreement, common term.

From PRL
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

I have not included all verses which uses this root and word so please check every use of this word in the Quraan.

11 119 Yusuf Ali Except those on whom He hath bestowed His Mercy and for this did He create them and the Word of thy Lord shall be fulfilled "I will fill Hell with jinns and men all together."

Transliteration Illa_ mar rahima rabbuk(a), wa liza_lika khalaqahum, wa tammat kalimatu rabbika la'amla'anna jahannama minal jinnati wan na_si ajma'in(a).

6 34

Rejected were the Apostles before thee with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs until Our aid did reach them there is none that can alter the Words of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those Apostles.

Transliteration Wa laqad kuzzibat rusulum min qablika fasabaru_ 'ala_ ma_ kuzzibu_ wa u_zu_ hatta_ ata_hum nasruna_, wa la_ mubaddila likalima_tilla_h(i), wa laqad ja_'aka min naba'il mursalin(a).

18 27
Yusuf Ali And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord none can change His Words and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.

Transliteration Wa-tlu ma_ u_hiya ilaika min kita_bi rabbik(a), la_ mubaddila likalima_tih(i), wa lan tajida min du_nihimultahada_(n).

40 6 Pickthall Thus was the word of thy Lord concerning those who disbelieve fulfilled that they are owners of the Fire.

Transliteration Wa kaza_lika haq qat kalimatu rab bika alal lazina kafaru_ an nahum asha_bun na_r

To give an idea of use of the word kalima let me try an example.

?The king said I have given my word that I will not attack; I will not change my word.?

Now is this law?

Sometimes simple men do not break their word. We can imagine Allah and His word.

The words ?Sunnat? and ?Kalima? if you cross refer with the Quran they can not be translated as Law. There are other words used in the Quraan for Law and I will not go in to that since its not relevant here.

Also it is absurd to use these two words to link "Law of nature? in to the Quraan without any support. The Quraan does not list out such Laws of nature or does not guarantee to safeguard such unmentioned natural laws.

unknownuser

The king said I have given my word that I will not attack; I will not change my word.

You never compare words of a king with WORDS of God! I can give you thousand examples where my words are my laws for me. It depends on your personality how much do you care about your words! My words are my laws for me because I never break my words. I cannot do against what I say. That is why God is always JUST and Trustworthy.

Sometimes simple men do not break their word. We can imagine Allah and His word.

Thats why simple men are not god! You never compare men's words with God's.

The words Sunnat and Kalima if you cross refer with the Quran they can not be translated as Law.

In the following example replace the words 'decree'/'decision'/'kalima' with LAW, what difference do you feel?

Wama kana alnnasuilla ommatan wahidatan faikhtalafoo walawlakalimatun sabaqat min rabbika laqudiya baynahum feemafeehi yakhtalifoona

Mankind were but one community; then they differed; and had it not been for a decision that had already gone forth from thy Lord it had been judged between them in respect of that wherein they differ.

11110 And we verily gave unto Moses the Scripture, and there was strife thereupon; and had it not been for a decision that had already gone forth from thy Lord, the case would have been judged between them, and lo! they are in grave doubt concerning it.

20129 And but for a decree that had already gone forth from thy Lord, and a term already fixed, the judgment would have been inevitable (in this world).

4214 and had it not been for a Word that had already gone forth from thy Lord for an appointed term, it surely had been judged between them.

All our understandings of the Quran depends on our concept of GOD. The concept of Kings and kingship has done the damage with the concept of God. A King is the most powerful so he can do anything, he can do whatever he says or he can do otherwise if he wants. For the majority of the people becaue God is higher in rank than a king, So God can go even farther. God has more right to go against His words than a King. And He has more powerful than a king to do anything as He wishes. So for majority of the people God is a higher version of Kings, a super-king. This is what we have been taught through our cultures. And this concept is so powerful that it don't let us reflect on this universe, even if we see how much consistent the laws of universe are and how much consistent is the Book of God. Still we do not reflect just because of our super-king concept of God.

With Respect, Hamsa

arnoldyasin

Salaam,

To understand the whole issue on God's Laws, you cannot just focus only on the word SunnatAllah and Kalimat, you must investigate His Will as explained in the Quran and how it is expressed in the Universe. Then the issue becomes far more clear why I believe His Laws do not change. Also, why believe in miracles, as they do not guide, do not prove His Power as the Universe already does this, the Truth is His Sign and more importantly, when the Arabic can be approached far more logically?

It is not that God shows His Power through miracles, people demand them from Him. God shows His Power through Nature and its complexity

7185 Can they not see (and correlate what he tells them with) the Dominion of the heavens and the earth and what Allah has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their own life may be near (hence the time to make the right decisions is not unlimited)? What HADITH (besides the Quran), are they going to believe after him?

3191 (Such men and women of understanding keep reflecting upon how Allahs Laws operate in the Universe.) Standing, sitting, and reclining, they observe, and reflect upon Allah's creation of the Heavens and the Earth and wonder, "Our Lord! You have not created all this without Purpose. High Above You are from creating anything in vain! Save us, then, from being negligent in attaining knowledge and thus, getting condemned to Fire. (When humans harness the forces of Nature and use them for the common good of all, they move away from Hell and close to Paradise in both lives 4513-14).

8817 Will they not, then, look at

the water-laden clouds, how they are made? (1522).
8818 - And at the sky, how it is raised high? (Without visible pillars 132).
8819 - And at the mountains, how they are entrenched?
8820 - And at the earth, how it is spread out? (That you do not even feel the
sphere, nor feel its speedy rotations 3110, 395, 7928-30).
8821 (This is some evidence, O Messenger!) Remind them, for you are one
to remind.

Also how God's Will works in the Universe must be understood before we can understand these subjects further

Article God's Will in the Quran

And His Forces, the Malikah

Article The Forces of God, Malikah

unknownuser