Tasreef/Crossreference understanding of Jesus's deeds---Miracle belief rejected
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Peace,
634, 6116, 1064, 1777, 1827, 3338, 3362, 3543, 4085, 4823
There is no changing in God's Ways and Word
4823 This is the Law of God which has been in force since older times. And
never will you find any change in Gods Law. (Sunnatillah = Gods Law in
practice. Kalimatillah = Gods Word = Gods Law in theory 3139, 1777,
3338, 3362, 3543, 4085, 4823)3543 Their arrogance in the land and their evil schemes! Yet an evil scheme
engulfs its designers. Are they waiting for anything but the way the ancients
were dealt with? Yes! No change you will ever find in the Laws of God, and no
deviation you will ever find in the Laws of God.And next to the Revelation, is the whole Universe considered the Kitab, Book, of Allah
638 (There are signs the Universe to behold.) All creatures on earth and all
the birds that fly on two wings are communities like you. We did not omit any
knowledge from this Book. And they all will be gathered to their Lord in the end.Thus no Decree in the Universe will be changed.
As all creatures follow the Laws to fulfill their purpose of existence
2441 Do you not realize that God, He it is Whom all beings in the heavens
and the earth glorify, and the birds, with their wings outspread, as they fly in
columns. All of them know their SALAAT and TASBEEH
God is Aware of what they do to fulfill His Plan.This is why we must explore nature
3191 (Such men and women of understanding keep reflecting upon how
Gods Laws operate in the Universe) Standing, sitting, and reclining, they
observe, and reflect upon God's creation of the heavens and the earth and
wonder, "Our Lord! You have not created all this without Purpose. High Above
You are from creating anything in vain! Save us, then, from being negligent in
attaining knowledge and thus, getting condemned to Fire. (When humans
harness the forces of Nature and use them for the common good of all, they
move away from Hell and close to Paradise in both lives 4513-14)This is a very summarized version of a vast subject. I have exams at the moment, and thus cannot engage in a discussion on this subject at the moment.
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Interpreting the Holy Quran based on what you want it to mean and based on your own preconceived notions is immoral and wrong.
hahaha you hypocrite, you are doing the same with ahadith and your entire preconceived notion of what the quran says based on all of these established traditions and views.
so you're just as immoral as any of the rest of us, and just as wrong. enjoy yourself, thanks for the laughs
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Peace be with you
The thesis on rejection of the miracle birth of Jesus and miracles performed by Jesus in particular and rejection of all miracles performed by the Messengers of God and also the rejection of miracles mentioned in the Quraan in general is based on the premise that ?Allah does not change His laws?. This argument is also used by few others at FM to reject miracles mentioned in the Quraan. The most quoted evidence in favor of this position is ?Allah does not change His sunnat? (Sunnatallah).Tanveer and Fahad and few others have refuted Arnolds theory quite strongly but I found they missed the basic premise this topic is based on.
The reason I write this post is to clear the misunderstanding on the theory that ?God does not change His laws?.
Lets analyze how sound Arnold?s Tasreef/cross reference is to arrive at the foundation of this topic that God does not change His laws.
Quotes by Arnold
Allah does not change His Laws in the Universe, as His fixed Laws express His Will in the world of Khalq, Creation.
God doesn't break His laws. Of course He can, but He says in the Quran He will not break them, this includes laws of Nature.
Kun doesn?t apply at all that this decree will go against the Laws of Nature, it only implies a certainty.
Allah creates things with a Purpose and according to His Laws.
That is nonsense of course, as why would He need to prove Himself while it is Him who installed the Laws of the Universe in the first place
But this in my eyes means, that the Laws that govern His Requital in our Universe with people are the only fixed Laws, through understanding Nature, we can see that all of the Laws in the Universe are fixed, but also, that many Laws that govern His Requital, are intertwined with other Laws of Nature.
Thus by my understanding ALL Laws are fixed and unchangable in the Universe, this is Allah's Kalimaat, Word and Decree.
There is no changing in God's Ways and Word
4823 This is the Law of God which has been in force since older times. And
never will you find any change in God?s Law. (?Sunnatillah? = God?s Law in
practice. ?Kalimatillah? = God?s Word = God?s Law in theory 3139, 1777,
3338, 3362, 3543, 4085, 4823)3543 Their arrogance in the land and their evil schemes! Yet an evil scheme
engulfs its designers. Are they waiting for anything but the way the ancients
were dealt with? Yes! No change you will ever find in the Laws of God, and no
deviation you will ever find in the Laws of God.Thus no Decree in the Universe will be changed.
As all creatures follow the Laws to fulfill their purpose of existence
I want you to take a look at how Arnold moves from sunnat and sunnattallah to way, decree, law, Law of God, God?s Law inpractice, kalimat, word, decree, God?s Law in theory and to law of nature without any cross reference.
The words in the Quran should not be spread like marmalade and certainly not the word ?Law?. In the Quraan each word has a particular and selective use and a purpose and is used very diligently to bring out the exact meaning. Law is a heavy word; more so in the Quraan. Simply, we can not even say something is forbidden according to our whims, imagine translating the words without connection as ?Law? without any support. When you apply the word ?law? in the wrong place it distorts the meaning and also it sounds as if that God has written laws for Himself and whenever God breaks these alleged self inflicted laws our boys holler ?Foul?. Now men have a control over God on what He wills and what He does. Clever isn?t it.
Let?s look whether sunnat/sunnatallah means laws/law of God.
Siin-Nun-Nun =
sanna vb. (1)
pcple. pass. 1526, 1528, 1533sinn n.f. 545, 545
sunnah n.f. (pl. sunan) 3137, 426, 838, 1513, 1777, 1777, 1855, 3338, 3362, 3362, 3543, 3543, 3543, 4085, 4823, 4823
LL, V4, p 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164
From PRL
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmIf you check with the above verses the meaning of sunnat is way, manner, style. In 545 many make the mistake of translating as ?wounds equal for equal? whereas it should be ?in the equal MANNER?.
3 137
Yusuf Ali Many were the Ways of Life that have passed away before you travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who rejected truth.Transliteration Qad khalat min qablikum sunan(un), fa siru_ fil ardi fanzuru_ kaifa ka_na'a_qibatul mukazzibin(a).
17 77
Yusuf Ali (This was Our) way with the apostles We sent before thee thou wilt find no change in Our ways.
Sunnata man qad arsalna_ qablaka mir rusulina_ wa la_ tajidu lisunnatina_ tahwila_(n).33 62
Pickthall That was the way of Allah in the case of those who passed away of old; thou wilt not find for the way of Allah aught of power to change.Transliteration Sun natal la_hi fil lazina halau min qabl wa lan tajida lisun natil la_hi tabdila_
35 43
Yusuf Ali On account of their arrogance in the land and their plotting of Evil. But the plotting of Evil will hem in only the authors thereof. Now are they but looking for the way the ancients were dealt with? But no change wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing) no turning off wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing).Transliteration Istikba_ran fil ardi wa makras say yi wa la_ yahiqul makrus say yi u il la_ bi ahlil fahal yansuru_na il la_ sunatal aw walin falan tajida lisun natil la_hi tabdila_ walan tajida lisun natil la_hi tahwila_
Please note the use of sunnat and sunnatillah in the verses and also sunnatal awwaaleen (the way the ancients) in 3543. Even Arnold translated sunnat as ?the WAY? in 3543.
To highlight the correct use of sunnat let me give an example.
?The mayor said We will lock up all criminals for a very long time. This is the way we will deal with the criminals and even in the past we have dealt with them in the same way. We will not change our way of dealing with the criminals?
The above quote is ?the way? certain mayor deals with the criminals. Can you call this law? Law is something far from this and the meaning does not even come close. The word ?Law? is a very important word we can not use it indiscriminately in every place as it suits us.
kalimah
The other word Arnold changes from ?Word? to ?Decree? to ?Law? and then to ?Gods law in theory? and ?law of nature? is kalima/kalimatullah.
Please check the following meanings.
Kaf-Lam-Miim = To speak, express.
kalimah n.f. (pl. kalimat, and kalim) - word, command, agreement, common term.
From PRL
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmI have not included all verses which uses this root and word so please check every use of this word in the Quraan.
11 119 Yusuf Ali Except those on whom He hath bestowed His Mercy and for this did He create them and the Word of thy Lord shall be fulfilled "I will fill Hell with jinns and men all together."
Transliteration Illa_ mar rahima rabbuk(a), wa liza_lika khalaqahum, wa tammat kalimatu rabbika la'amla'anna jahannama minal jinnati wan na_si ajma'in(a).
6 34
Rejected were the Apostles before thee with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs until Our aid did reach them there is none that can alter the Words of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those Apostles.
Transliteration Wa laqad kuzzibat rusulum min qablika fasabaru_ 'ala_ ma_ kuzzibu_ wa u_zu_ hatta_ ata_hum nasruna_, wa la_ mubaddila likalima_tilla_h(i), wa laqad ja_'aka min naba'il mursalin(a).
18 27
Yusuf Ali And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord none can change His Words and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.Transliteration Wa-tlu ma_ u_hiya ilaika min kita_bi rabbik(a), la_ mubaddila likalima_tih(i), wa lan tajida min du_nihimultahada_(n).
40 6 Pickthall Thus was the word of thy Lord concerning those who disbelieve fulfilled that they are owners of the Fire.
Transliteration Wa kaza_lika haq qat kalimatu rab bika alal lazina kafaru_ an nahum asha_bun na_r
To give an idea of use of the word kalima let me try an example.
?The king said I have given my word that I will not attack; I will not change my word.?
Now is this law?
Sometimes simple men do not break their word. We can imagine Allah and His word.
The words ?Sunnat? and ?Kalima? if you cross refer with the Quran they can not be translated as Law. There are other words used in the Quraan for Law and I will not go in to that since its not relevant here.
Also it is absurd to use these two words to link "Law of nature? in to the Quraan without any support. The Quraan does not list out such Laws of nature or does not guarantee to safeguard such unmentioned natural laws.
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The king said I have given my word that I will not attack; I will not change my word.
You never compare words of a king with WORDS of God! I can give you thousand examples where my words are my laws for me. It depends on your personality how much do you care about your words! My words are my laws for me because I never break my words. I cannot do against what I say. That is why God is always JUST and Trustworthy.
Sometimes simple men do not break their word. We can imagine Allah and His word.
Thats why simple men are not god! You never compare men's words with God's.
The words Sunnat and Kalima if you cross refer with the Quran they can not be translated as Law.
In the following example replace the words 'decree'/'decision'/'kalima' with LAW, what difference do you feel?
Wama kana alnnasuilla ommatan wahidatan faikhtalafoo walawlakalimatun sabaqat min rabbika laqudiya baynahum feemafeehi yakhtalifoona
Mankind were but one community; then they differed; and had it not been for a decision that had already gone forth from thy Lord it had been judged between them in respect of that wherein they differ.
11110 And we verily gave unto Moses the Scripture, and there was strife thereupon; and had it not been for a decision that had already gone forth from thy Lord, the case would have been judged between them, and lo! they are in grave doubt concerning it.
20129 And but for a decree that had already gone forth from thy Lord, and a term already fixed, the judgment would have been inevitable (in this world).
4214 and had it not been for a Word that had already gone forth from thy Lord for an appointed term, it surely had been judged between them.
All our understandings of the Quran depends on our concept of GOD. The concept of Kings and kingship has done the damage with the concept of God. A King is the most powerful so he can do anything, he can do whatever he says or he can do otherwise if he wants. For the majority of the people becaue God is higher in rank than a king, So God can go even farther. God has more right to go against His words than a King. And He has more powerful than a king to do anything as He wishes. So for majority of the people God is a higher version of Kings, a super-king. This is what we have been taught through our cultures. And this concept is so powerful that it don't let us reflect on this universe, even if we see how much consistent the laws of universe are and how much consistent is the Book of God. Still we do not reflect just because of our super-king concept of God.
With Respect, Hamsa
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Salaam,
To understand the whole issue on God's Laws, you cannot just focus only on the word SunnatAllah and Kalimat, you must investigate His Will as explained in the Quran and how it is expressed in the Universe. Then the issue becomes far more clear why I believe His Laws do not change. Also, why believe in miracles, as they do not guide, do not prove His Power as the Universe already does this, the Truth is His Sign and more importantly, when the Arabic can be approached far more logically?
It is not that God shows His Power through miracles, people demand them from Him. God shows His Power through Nature and its complexity
7185 Can they not see (and correlate what he tells them with) the Dominion of the heavens and the earth and what Allah has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their own life may be near (hence the time to make the right decisions is not unlimited)? What HADITH (besides the Quran), are they going to believe after him?
3191 (Such men and women of understanding keep reflecting upon how Allahs Laws operate in the Universe.) Standing, sitting, and reclining, they observe, and reflect upon Allah's creation of the Heavens and the Earth and wonder, "Our Lord! You have not created all this without Purpose. High Above You are from creating anything in vain! Save us, then, from being negligent in attaining knowledge and thus, getting condemned to Fire. (When humans harness the forces of Nature and use them for the common good of all, they move away from Hell and close to Paradise in both lives 4513-14).
8817 Will they not, then, look at
- the water-laden clouds, how they are made? (1522).
8818 - And at the sky, how it is raised high? (Without visible pillars 132).
8819 - And at the mountains, how they are entrenched?
8820 - And at the earth, how it is spread out? (That you do not even feel the
sphere, nor feel its speedy rotations 3110, 395, 7928-30).
8821 (This is some evidence, O Messenger!) Remind them, for you are one
to remind.
Also how God's Will works in the Universe must be understood before we can understand these subjects further
Article God's Will in the Quran
And His Forces, the Malikah
Article The Forces of God, Malikah
- the water-laden clouds, how they are made? (1522).
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Peace be with you
The thesis on rejection of the miracle birth of Jesus and miracles performed by Jesus in particular and rejection of all miracles performed by the Messengers of God and also the rejection of miracles mentioned in the Quraan in general is based on the premise that ?Allah does not change His laws?. This argument is also used by few others at FM to reject miracles mentioned in the Quraan. The most quoted evidence in favor of this position is ?Allah does not change His sunnat? (Sunnatallah).Tanveer and Fahad and few others have refuted Arnolds theory quite strongly but I found they missed the basic premise this topic is based on.
The reason I write this post is to clear the misunderstanding on the theory that ?God does not change His laws?.
Lets analyze how sound Arnold?s Tasreef/cross reference is to arrive at the foundation of this topic that God does not change His laws.
Quotes by Arnold
I want you to take a look at how Arnold moves from sunnat and sunnattallah to way, decree, law, Law of God, God?s Law inpractice, kalimat, word, decree, God?s Law in theory and to law of nature without any cross reference.
The words in the Quran should not be spread like marmalade and certainly not the word ?Law?. In the Quraan each word has a particular and selective use and a purpose and is used very diligently to bring out the exact meaning. Law is a heavy word; more so in the Quraan. Simply, we can not even say something is forbidden according to our whims, imagine translating the words without connection as ?Law? without any support. When you apply the word ?law? in the wrong place it distorts the meaning and also it sounds as if that God has written laws for Himself and whenever God breaks these alleged self inflicted laws our boys holler ?Foul?. Now men have a control over God on what He wills and what He does. Clever isn?t it.
Let?s look whether sunnat/sunnatallah means laws/law of God.
Siin-Nun-Nun =
sanna vb. (1)
pcple. pass. 1526, 1528, 1533sinn n.f. 545, 545
sunnah n.f. (pl. sunan) 3137, 426, 838, 1513, 1777, 1777, 1855, 3338, 3362, 3362, 3543, 3543, 3543, 4085, 4823, 4823
LL, V4, p 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164
From PRL
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmIf you check with the above verses the meaning of sunnat is way, manner, style. In 545 many make the mistake of translating as ?wounds equal for equal? whereas it should be ?in the equal MANNER?.
3 137
Yusuf Ali Many were the Ways of Life that have passed away before you travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who rejected truth.Transliteration Qad khalat min qablikum sunan(un), fa siru_ fil ardi fanzuru_ kaifa ka_na'a_qibatul mukazzibin(a).
17 77
Yusuf Ali (This was Our) way with the apostles We sent before thee thou wilt find no change in Our ways.
Sunnata man qad arsalna_ qablaka mir rusulina_ wa la_ tajidu lisunnatina_ tahwila_(n).33 62
Pickthall That was the way of Allah in the case of those who passed away of old; thou wilt not find for the way of Allah aught of power to change.Transliteration Sun natal la_hi fil lazina halau min qabl wa lan tajida lisun natil la_hi tabdila_
35 43
Yusuf Ali On account of their arrogance in the land and their plotting of Evil. But the plotting of Evil will hem in only the authors thereof. Now are they but looking for the way the ancients were dealt with? But no change wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing) no turning off wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing).Transliteration Istikba_ran fil ardi wa makras say yi wa la_ yahiqul makrus say yi u il la_ bi ahlil fahal yansuru_na il la_ sunatal aw walin falan tajida lisun natil la_hi tabdila_ walan tajida lisun natil la_hi tahwila_
Please note the use of sunnat and sunnatillah in the verses and also sunnatal awwaaleen (the way the ancients) in 3543. Even Arnold translated sunnat as ?the WAY? in 3543.
To highlight the correct use of sunnat let me give an example.
?The mayor said We will lock up all criminals for a very long time. This is the way we will deal with the criminals and even in the past we have dealt with them in the same way. We will not change our way of dealing with the criminals?
The above quote is ?the way? certain mayor deals with the criminals. Can you call this law? Law is something far from this and the meaning does not even come close. The word ?Law? is a very important word we can not use it indiscriminately in every place as it suits us.
kalimah
The other word Arnold changes from ?Word? to ?Decree? to ?Law? and then to ?Gods law in theory? and ?law of nature? is kalima/kalimatullah.
Please check the following meanings.
Kaf-Lam-Miim = To speak, express.
kalimah n.f. (pl. kalimat, and kalim) - word, command, agreement, common term.
From PRL
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmI have not included all verses which uses this root and word so please check every use of this word in the Quraan.
11 119 Yusuf Ali Except those on whom He hath bestowed His Mercy and for this did He create them and the Word of thy Lord shall be fulfilled "I will fill Hell with jinns and men all together."
Transliteration Illa_ mar rahima rabbuk(a), wa liza_lika khalaqahum, wa tammat kalimatu rabbika la'amla'anna jahannama minal jinnati wan na_si ajma'in(a).
6 34
Rejected were the Apostles before thee with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs until Our aid did reach them there is none that can alter the Words of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those Apostles.
Transliteration Wa laqad kuzzibat rusulum min qablika fasabaru_ 'ala_ ma_ kuzzibu_ wa u_zu_ hatta_ ata_hum nasruna_, wa la_ mubaddila likalima_tilla_h(i), wa laqad ja_'aka min naba'il mursalin(a).
18 27
Yusuf Ali And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord none can change His Words and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.Transliteration Wa-tlu ma_ u_hiya ilaika min kita_bi rabbik(a), la_ mubaddila likalima_tih(i), wa lan tajida min du_nihimultahada_(n).
40 6 Pickthall Thus was the word of thy Lord concerning those who disbelieve fulfilled that they are owners of the Fire.
Transliteration Wa kaza_lika haq qat kalimatu rab bika alal lazina kafaru_ an nahum asha_bun na_r
To give an idea of use of the word kalima let me try an example.
?The king said I have given my word that I will not attack; I will not change my word.?
Now is this law?
Sometimes simple men do not break their word. We can imagine Allah and His word.
The words ?Sunnat? and ?Kalima? if you cross refer with the Quran they can not be translated as Law. There are other words used in the Quraan for Law and I will not go in to that since its not relevant here.
Also it is absurd to use these two words to link "Law of nature? in to the Quraan without any support. The Quraan does not list out such Laws of nature or does not guarantee to safeguard such unmentioned natural laws.
Good refute to those who play with the Arabic words
Thanks bro
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Peace R Hamsa
Your reply clearly shows you can not even fathom the reason for the example of the ?king giving his word? which is to explain in the most basic and simple way the use of the word kalima in these contexts, which we are discussing, since brothers like you do not understand the use of these words in the Quraan even after reading many verses with the word Kalima and sunnat. The example does not compare God with the king or the mayor it is to make clear that Kalima and sunna does not mean ?Law?.
In the following example replace the words 'decree'/'decision'/'kalima' with LAW, what difference do you feel?
In your posts within 5 verses you have translated Kalima as decision, decree and word. And finally based on these rush to the conclusion all these mean Law. I am not ready to replace or substitute the words in the Quraan with the nonsense you propose.
?God does not break His Laws? is a general statement without the word for Law not occurring in any related verses in the Quraan in this context and without a clear definition and examples of ?these Laws? from you or Arnold.
If someone says Allah does not change His creation we can look up in the Quraan and find a verse such as 3030 which supports this argument to a certain extent. But we must remember we have very limited understanding of His creation and He says He creates what He wills. How He creates and what He creates is not something science has not comprehended fully. According to science none of this is created its all natural phenomena without clear answers. Importantly do not run to the wrong conclusion; Creation is not Law either. God says He created the first man (Adam) with clay/mud and then his mate and then created the rest of the mankind from fluid. So we know He has created man/woman in 3 different ways and then He says Adam is like Jesus. In the creation of both Adam and Jesus the mention of ??.He said to him "Be" and he was? 359 and ??He saith unto it only Be! and it is. (347) makes it different from the description of creation of the rest of mankind.
It?s strange that even after many of Arnold?s thesis and your posts not a single mention of the words Amr and Amrillah or kitab and katabllah which is of prime importance to this subject.
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Peace Brother Warner,
If Kalimah or Kalimaat cannot be translated as God's Laws then how would you explain verse 6115. And also according to my understanding Quran is a book of Laws of God for human beings.
And also our understanding of Quran depends on our concept of God.
Hamsa
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Peace,
Doesn't matter if you translate it as Decree or Law, as God DECREED that Gravity should have a certain value, God DECREED that water should have a certain value.
It all comes down to that God doesn't change the way He handles His Ways in the Universe and He doesn't alter His Decrees, which include all the values in the Universe.
So this whole argument is nonsense. This concept can only be understood when looking at several subjects in the Quran, and not just 3 verses.
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Peace Warner, all,
God says He created the first man (Adam) with clay/mud and then his mate and then created the rest of the mankind from fluid.
This is false. All of mankind was created from clay/mud/dust.
4067 He is the One who created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo...
1837 His friend said to him, as he debated with him, "Have you disbelieved in the One who created you from dust, then from a seed, then perfected you into a man?In the creation of both Adam and Jesus the mention of ??.He said to him "Be" and he was? 359 and ??He saith unto it only Be! and it is. (347) makes it different from the description of creation of the rest of mankind.
This is false also. All of life/creation exists is via the "be" command.
1640 It is Our saying to a thing if We want it, to say to it "Be," and it is.
3682 His command, when He wants anything, is to say to it "Be" and it is!Doesn't this change the entire feeling of 347 - from Isa being different, to Isa being exactly like everyone else?
Peace,
Tay*edited to fix typo and add this note
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Peace all,
Arnold presented the following "proofs" that ALL laws of nature never change
634, 6116, 1064, 1777, 1827, 3338, 3362, 3543, 4085, 4823
634 talks about patience of the messengers and their eventual victory over the rejecters arriving from The God, and this is the way/sunnah of The God He promises not to change. Nothing about ALL laws of nature never changing.
6116 talks about majority of people leading others away from God's path (sabeel Allah), nothing to do with ALL laws of God never changing !
1062 For God's allies, there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.
1063 Those who believed and were aware.
1064 For them are glad tidings in the worldly life and in the Hereafter. There is no changing the words of God. Such is the great success.According to the context these signs talk about God's allies and believers never having fear nor grieving and their getting glad tidings in this life and the hereafter and thus refers to these words/promises of God never changing. Nothing about ALL laws of nature never changing.
1777, 3362 and 3543 refer to the sunnah of evil being given respite for a while and then destroyed and this way/sunnah of God never changing. Nothing about ALL laws of nature never changing.
1826 Say "God is fully aware how long they remained, to Him is the unseen of heavens and Earth, He sees and hears. They do not have besides Him any ally, nor does He share in His judgment with anyone."
1827 And recite what has been inspired to you from your Lord's Scripture, there is no changing His words, and you will not find besides Him any refuge.According to the context, people not having any ally or refuge besides God, and God not sharing His judgment with anyone are His words/promises that will never change. Nothing about ALL laws of nature never changing.
3338 talks about the prophet doing whatever God ordered him and that being God's way with the people of the old. Nothing about ALL laws of nature never changing.
4085 refers to rejecters/disbelievers believing once they see God's might and talks about this belief after seeing God's might not benefitting them, and this is the way/sunnah of God that will never change. Nothing about ALL laws of nature never changing.
4823 refers to the believers getting victory over the rejecters who fought the believers, and this way/sunnah of God never changing. Nothing about ALL laws of nature never changing.
As all the readers can see, so far Arnold has not been able to give any evidence whatsoever from al-qur'aan of ALL laws of nature never changing. All he has been able to do is to twist and misinterpret "sunnah of The God" to imply what it does not imply according to the context of its usage in al-qur'aan.
As far as the controllers/malaika doing whatever they are commanded by The God (1649-50, 666) does not mean that the command from The God cannot change !
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Peace Tanveer,
So by your interpretation God only keeps His Words unchanged with His Promises on reward? Of course not, this is one of the examples of words/decrees He does not change. All workings of Nature are created through His Decrees and Words.
God said "Be, and it is" with the WHOLE Creation. Is "Be" not one of His Words Tanveer?
2117 The Originator of the heavens and the earth when He wills
a thing to be, He but says to it ?Be? ? and it is.673 And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth with a definite
Purpose (3191, 3827) Whenever He says ?Be!? it is. His Word is the Truth.
And His will be the Dominion on the Day the Trumpet (of Resurrection) is
blown. Knower of the Invisible and the Visible, for, He is the Wise, the Aware.As we know, the Universe is controlled by fixed Laws, these Laws were created through His Words "Be", and He does NOT change His words.
So He does not break His Laws as these are part of His Decrees as the Universe also follows His Deen, System of Law.
But this subject, as said before, cannot be understood only by focussing on a couple of verses. We must understand how His Will works, the conditions on Khalq and Amr.
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Peace Arnold,
He does not have to change His word "Be"; He can just use that word "Be" to form whatever new law He wants or change an existing law. The context of the relevant signs clearly tells us which words/promises He never changes. Also Word does not equal Law unless you insist on twisting His words
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A Law of Nature is a Decree made by Him, just like the whole Universe is called an Al-Kitab by Him. And we are discussing an interpretation on a subject here, and as I learned on this site to have patient and humbleness with interpretations, I suggest to be more patient with your ' twisting' accusations as you are very quick in throwing them around to people, which gives an idea your beliefs are infallible
And what you just said is contradicting to what Allah Himself says, He says He doesn't change His Words/Decrees, but now you say He changes with every "Be", this is inconsistent with the Quran.
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Peace Warner,
To understand this you must look at several verses to see it.
Planets and stars follow for example fixed orbits
2133 And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the
moon. They swim along, each in an orbit.And these orbits were created through His Decree
4111 Likewise, He it is Who designed well the Sky when it was SMOKE/DUKHAAN (Nebulae of gas). And He said to it and the earth, "Come both of you willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We do come, obedient."
Thus the Laws that control the orbit fall under His Decree. This can be seen with procreation, how the Sky protects us against meteors and so on, all are created through His Decree. And we must observe Nature to see that indeed God does not break His Words of Decrees
3191 (Such men and women of understanding keep reflecting upon how
Gods Laws operate in the Universe) Standing, sitting, and reclining, they
observe, and reflect upon God's creation of the heavens and the earth and
wonder, "Our Lord! You have not created all this without Purpose. High Above
You are from creating anything in vain! Save us, then, from being negligent in
attaining knowledge and thus, getting condemned to Fire.The Laws are so precise and fixed, He presents them as His signs of Power
2164 (Never does God propose blind faith.) Indeed, there are
ample signs In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the
alternation of the night and the day - and the ships that roam the
ocean for the benefit of mankind - and the water that God sends
down from the sky, thereby giving life to the land after it had been
lifeless - and in dispersing a great variety of creatures therein - and
in the currents of winds - and the clouds subservient between the
high atmosphere and the earth. All these are clear signs for those
who exercise their intellect. (The Universe is too organized to be
the result of an accident 673. Sama = Sky = Heaven =
Atmosphere = Canopy)And in many ways the Universe is presented as a Kitab, a vessel of information.
638 And there is not a creature in the Earth, or a bird that fly's with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the record; then to their Lord they will be gathered.
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My Reviewed Understanding of The Issue of Law!
Note There is nothing to be emotional. We are learning and helping each other to understand the scripture. The Book of God is like the universe and people may have different interpretations but still we can consider different aspect with an open mind like mature people. I hope this wouldn?t be a mere a hope.
So first of all, I myself has reviewed the situation again and would like to share my thoughts, if you brothers do not consider it as an attack, its just my understanding and hope you will help me.
What I have realised is what if we change our focus from God to the universe. I mean rather than asking the question that whether or not God can go against His laws we should ask whether or not anything in the universe go against the laws of God in the first place? If you do not like the term law, then you can say whether or not anything in the universe go against what God has decreed/ commanded/ or ordered it to do?
As the following Verse mentions 383 ?. all things in the heavens and the earth, willingly and unwillingly submit (aslama) to Him, and to Him they will be returned.
Everything in the universe, willingly or unwillingly serve/ submit to God. This is very simple verse, still we can apply two or may be more interpretations for example
- Everything in the universe is following the laws of God he has made for it to follow
- Everything in the universe is following what God has decreed/commanded it to do.
- Everything in the universe is following what God has inspired in it.
May be for you first option is out of question because of the word ?LAW? and may be you are 50% agree with option 2 and not 100% just because of the word ?Decree?. But you may/can agree with option 3 because of the word ?inspired? and why it is more likely for everyone to agree because of the following verse
Note Because of the word AMR in the verse I have included more translations (I have 16) to see its different meanings as I do not know much of Arabic.
4112 SHAKIR So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.
Sarwar He formed the seven heavens in two days and revealed to each one its task. He decked the sky above the earth with torches and protected it from (intruders).. Such is the design of the Majestic and All-knowing God".
Khalifa Thus, He completed the seven universes in two days, and set up the laws for every universe. And we adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and placed guards around it. Such is the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.
Hilali/Khan Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him the All-Mighty, the All-Knower.
Yusuf Ali So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command.
As you can see all of the above translators have translated the word AMR as affairs/duty and command/task/laws as per their understandings and beliefs. We can do the same.
Whatever the meaning we give to AMR one thing is clear that according to the above verses, everything in the heavens and the earth submit to God willingly or unwillingly. Whatever Allah has decreed/commanded for them they are following that. (I deliberately left the word Law even if it doesn?t make no difference to the understanding). And also we know that nothing in the universe go against what it is inspired to do by God because they are submissive.
And also the following verse which says that all things in heaven and earth do whatever they are inspired to do and they do not go against it
1649 And to God submit all those in the heavens and all those on the Earth, from the creatures as well as the Angels, and they do not yastakbiroon/show arrogance/go against his laws/go against whatever He has decreed/commanded them to do.
the next verse clarifies1650 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.
Some more examples 1315 And all things in the heavens and the earth, willingly and unwillingly bow to Him (in obedience) (yasjudu)
From the above verse yasjudu means submissiveness and obedience of these things to Allah?s Amr or Command/affair/Law/decree etc. It is a fact that every object and every phenomenon in the universe is governed by certain laws. While I totally agree that it may be the case that science has not so far discovered all the laws that govern everything but one can also not deny the fact that so much we have found there is nothing that does not follow a law. What they call ?natural laws?, Allah clarifies to them that these are His Laws.
The submission of heavens and the earths is also explained in the following verse
2218 Do you not see that Allah is He, Whom obeys whoever is in the heavens and whoever is in the earth, and the sun and the moon and the stars, and the mountains and the trees, and the animals and many of the people; and many there are against whom chastisement has become necessary; and whomsoever Allah abases, there is none who can make him honourable; surely Allah does what He pleases.
Now I ask myself a question that can we figure out that in the universe different things what they are inspired to do and what are their duties assigned by God? And again Quran encourages us to to give a beautiful example a honey-bee what it is inspired and what duties are assigned to it.
1668-69 And your Lord inspired the bee build homes in mountains and trees, and in (the hives) they build for you. Then eat from all the fruits, following the design of your Lord, precisely. From their bellies comes a drink of different colors, wherein there is healing for the people. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who reflect.
So my humble understanding of this verse leads me to think that we can also find out about all other things what they are inspired to do and what their duties are assigned by God. And use them to take benefit as we?ve already been benefited by finding different laws of universe. Because God also says in the Quran that
4513 And He has made subservient to you whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, all, from Himself; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.
From this I conclude that everything in the universe has surrendered to God's will. Whatever laws God has made for them they are following it. Or perhaps if you want to say, Whatever God has commanded/assigned duties/given task to them to do they are following that. And they do not go against His laws. Whatever the laws we know so far we notice that they are consistent. Just for example what honeybee is inspired we found it consistent in its duties/tasks and so can you observe with all other things. And also we are encouraged to observe and know about these things, why different colors, the clouds, the mountains and how the earth is spread and so on throughout the Quran. 1736 also demands observation.
So my conclusion is if I could explain it well above is that when it comes to universe it doesn?t make no difference whether you take His words as Laws/decrees/commands/inspiration and
- Everything in the universe knows what to do 2441, 2116
- Allah has made laws/decreed/inspired for everything what to do
- None can go against His laws.
Peace be upon you, Hamsa
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Peace R Hamsa
Quraan is partly a book of Law. The verse 6115 says ?no one can change the Word of Allah?. God will not change His promise, word, way and a decree issued that does not say laws will not change.
1419
Yusuf Ali Seest thou not that Allah created the Heavens and the earth in Truth? If He so will He can remove you and put (in your place) a new Creation?Transliteration Alam tara annalla_ha khalaqas sama_wa_ti wal arda bil haqq(i), iy yasya' yuzhibkum wa ya'ti bi khalqin jadid(iw),
Now, can you, Tay and Arnold tell God, ?Sorry God you can?t do that. You can not change Laws?. Allah says He create what He wills. Can you guys tell God ?Sorry again, you can not create what you will, you can create only what is within the law?.
Which book says where that law can not be changed? And natural Laws ?
The law concerning food for children of Israel and the law prescribed in the Quraan has differences. Is this not an example that Allah can change the Laws? Does God say anywhere in the Quraan that He will not change the law prescribed?
We are to derive our understanding of God from the Quraan and then reflect on nature for His signs and not to have a foregone concept of God as you propose and then try to understand the Quran.