Hajj means Annual Global Debate--Explanation using Tasreef/Crossreference
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933 He it is Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the True Religion (DEEN = The System of Life), that He may cause it to prevail over all religions and systems of life, even though the idolaters may detest it. (931-33, 1448, 1848, 4828, 619).
3110 (Since you have been empowered by the Qur?an), you are indeed the best suited Community that has been raised up for the good of mankind. You shall enjoin the Right, by example and close the doors to Wrong, by example, since you have conviction in Allah (and accept His Final Word as the Criterion of Right and Wrong 34. The Qur?an educates you on the Permanent Moral Value System and distinguishes clearly what the otherwise vague terms of ?right? and ?wrong?, and ?good? and ?evil? would mean). Now if the People of the Scripture had attained this kind of belief, it would have been for their own good. Some of them do embrace belief, while most of them continue to drift away.
I believe this is the Message of the Quran, and I don't go waste my time in dreaming. As for Salat is following Allah's Laws, this is explained through 2441. Allah uses the Quran to explain His definitions.
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Peace,
You seem very convinced. Almost so much so that you seem to me somewhat unapproachable. But despite that can you explain what this means
Allah uses the Quran to explain His definitions.
This doesn't seem to make sense to me. Could you explain this to me without being condescending (as I see this coming next, as I'm sure you are quite annoyed with me).
It seems you are a followr of the QXP project. Very good. I think it is a good work, though I definetely see some unnecessary embellishments in in, all the same.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace
Some birds fly in formations;mostly in ?V? formations. It helps to conserve energy of the group (the wing muscles get less tired and also the heart rate drops) and increases flying efficiency of migratory birds flying thousands of miles to escape harsh winters. Also the formation helps communication between the group and if a bird is lost it will be easily noticeable. In a group its possible there can be experienced birds helping in the navigation maybe with the help of sun and the stars. The lead bird keeps changing since it gets more tired than the rest and is replaced by another bird in the tail. Formations are actually a fascinating thing and with much science involved and it is much more than mere following.
Salaam Anwar
Can you please do us a favor and explain verse 2441, for us to get a better understanding whether the verse communicates that salat is following closely.
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peace,
You seem very convinced. Almost so much so that you seem to me somewhat unapproachable.
Because I can answer the people's question that shows I have thought out things suddenly I'm almost unapproachable. You are a person that makes a lot of assumptions, judgements, that are really unfounded and based on emotions it seems. You predict my future behaviour and so on. No dear Anwer, I'm not annoyed by you, only you sadden me a bit with such unneccessary assumptions that are unfounded. You reflect to much on yourself it seems, maybe you would be annoyed in this situation, or you want me to be annoyed. Whatever it is, your ideas about me are wrong.
Since when are questions creating problems with people? It only makes me sharper in my thinking, and it always brings up issues that you haven't thought before, so these discussions are priceless.
About the Quran explaining its own definitions, for example the Will of Allah. Human will is decided by its needs and wants, we have a need, hunger, so our will is to go eat, when we have fulfilled this need, a new need is formed and thus a new will. God has no needs, so the definition of Will we know does not apply to Him, He must explain His Will in the Quran, what He did in all Revelations, so we as humans can comprehend His Will so we can follow it in the best way.
See my article
http//19.org/index.php?arnold
It seems you are a follower of the QXP project. Very good. I think it is a good work, though I definetely see some unnecessary embellishments in in, all the same.
I don't follow it, I'm part of it ) I run the website, forum and work on QXP3 together with Dr.Shabbir. In about a month the whole website is changed, it will contain a huge library of online books of several Muslim and non-Muslim authors, dictionaries and lectures and so on. And the new version of QXP will be released in June InshAllah. This version is very much improvement, and we have tried to seperate the Tasreef-tafseer/crossreference-explanation from the translation of the verses.
God bless
Arnold Yasin
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Because I can answer the people's question that shows I have thought out things suddenly I'm almost unapproachable. You are a person that makes a lot of assumptions, judgements, that are really unfounded and based on emotions it seems. You predict my future behaviour and so on. No dear Anwer, I'm not annoyed by you, only you sadden me a bit with such unneccessary assumptions that are unfounded. You reflect to much on yourself it seems, maybe you would be annoyed in this situation, or you want me to be annoyed. Whatever it is, your ideas about me are wrong.
Since when are questions creating problems with people? It only makes me sharper in my thinking, and it always brings up issues that you haven't thought before, so these discussions are priceless.
There's no way you got all that from the little bit I said. I only said
You seem very convinced. Almost so much so that you seem to me somewhat unapproachable. But despite that can you explain what this means
Quote
Allah uses the Quran to explain His definitions.This doesn't seem to make sense to me. Could you explain this to me without being condescending (as I see this coming next, as I'm sure you are quite annoyed with me).
It seems you are a followr of the QXP project. Very good. I think it is a good work, though I definetely see some unnecessary embellishments in in, all the same.
Seems you might be a little biased against me. But that is okay. In the end it seems my assumption was right. Don't be picky about whether you are a follower or a part of it. Do you really have to pick an argument for such a thing. Or is it that you assume that everything I have to say is negative, or a negative criticism. Please bruh, understand that it is not like that.
I don't follow it, I'm part of it I run the website, forum and work on QXP3 together with Dr.Shabbir. In about a month the whole website is changed, it will contain a huge library of online books of several Muslim and non-Muslim authors, dictionaries and lectures and so on. And the new version of QXP will be released in June InshAllah. This version is very much improvement, and we have tried to seperate the Tasreef-tafseer/crossreference-explanation from the translation of the verses.
Congratulations. I commend you for the effort. Though let me repeat what I said in previous email. I think that QXP is bit embellished and is developed off of that fact that it is an INTERPRETATION of the Quran. Honestly, I like Quranic Teachings more. That is not a slap in the face though, please don't take it like that. I think that QXP is a needed project and should an important step for many of the world Muslims towards just following the Quran.
An important part of studying the Quran is following all of it, and that implies re-evaluations of certain passages that many have an obvious meaning by itself, but our understandings must see it through a meaning more appropriate to that other passage that complements it.
I know those passages you mentioned and I reviewed them personally. However, you have not dealt with what seems to be an obvioius contradiction (when using your understanding of those passages) with other passages.
I honestly wanted to understand how YOU process these passages together, istead of just using a quote from QXP which wasn't even really that appropriate, nor did it refer to the Arabic used to clarify your understanding. So instead of getting defensive, which it seems you are, please deal with the issue with calm. I respect your ability to think, as God gave you the mind you have but I'd really like to see your work (if you understand what I mean) especially as it concerns those verses that say that the majority of people will not believe, and will not be faithful to God. Yet you believe that they will follow the laws of the Quran. What is your logic?
Please I see you getting distracted a bit, so could we stick to the topic.
Godbless,
AnwarQuranic teachings is
http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/index.htm
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Salaam Anwer,
There's no way you got all that from the little bit I said. I only said......Seems you might be a little biased against me. But that is okay. In the end it seems my assumption was right. Don't be picky about whether you are a follower or a part of it. Do you really have to pick an argument for such a thing. Or is it that you assume that everything I have to say is negative, or a negative criticism. Please bruh, understand that it is not like that.
hmmm, it seems you forgot that your first post on this thread was assuming I had potentials of becoming a tyrant, then I was dreaming, then I'm almost unapproachable, and then you are predicting I could be talking to you in a condencending way. These were all assumptions made up before I even posted anything really. And now you believe I'm biased against you, which you again assume you got right. I really don't know what to say Anwer, your answers are a bit weird to say the least. Whatever I say is turned around by you into another assumption.
I had already answered parts of your question throughout this thread.
"The Quran says that most will not be momin, those that are convinced. I believe that not everyone will believe the Quran is from God, but I do believe they agree with its principals. Just like in Holland we have a Christian government, most people in Holland are not Christians, but they certainly agree with the Christians ideals. The same will be with the Quranic ideals being taken over by non-Muslim countries.And one of my beliefs is also that Mankind will be one again, although this lays far in the future. First Islamic States will reform themselves, then eventually non-Muslim countries will accept them as arbiters, just like the UN-conventions is now. Hajj is indeed meant for many things. And our discussions are part of them. Hajj is for improvement of society on all levels."
I will write an article about this subject in the future, to explain my ideas better and to clear up if they contradict with the Quran.
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Peace "progod",
You said amongst other things....it is an INTERPRETATION of the Quran. Honestly, I like Quranic Teachings more..."
JK- This statement is an obvious oxymoron. Every approach or understanding of the Quran is lastly an interpretation. You have to INTERPRET the Quran in a certain way in order to derive teachings from it. It all depends on how you uinderstand those terms which the Quran uses. Bro Arnold as far as ive analysed interprets the Quranic terms by employing the unbiased scientific method. He instead of referring to biased Mullahs who are dogmatic with their understandings, refers to classic Arabic dictionaries which state almost all the various uses of different terms as made by various Arabic communities through the generations, connects the similar topics stated in the Quran at avrious places, takes into account grammar and context, all which contributed to a rational understanding of the Quran. GOD Bless!
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Peace,
It is not an oxymoron. It is actually a redudancy. What you said is exactly right about studying the Quran. We all must interpret it. I was just reminding our brother Arnold that when he quotes from QXP that is not the same as quoting the Quran, and that he should also refer to those other verses which seem to be contradicting his interpretation. Thank you for trying to help.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
I read the Quranic in Classical Arabic often and research the meanings of the words. When I read QXP I like it because it is a rendering that has taken other Quranic references in mind and is focused on the spiritual meaning of the Quran. However, when I read it I also find it somewhat embellished and I know that some of those connection are not in the Arabic and are somewhat forced. As benign as they may be (they are however certain more positive than the Sunni and other traditional renderings, though not fully accurate.)
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
1st of all what may seem as a forced interpretation to some may not appear so to others so its relative. The only way to solve this issue is scientific analysis. If you claim that your following the exact same proceures as bro Arnold referring to classic Arabic dictionaries, taking into account context and grammar then it would surprise me if boith of you wont come to approximately the same or very close conlusions at most in a couple of years. 2ndly by your statement above i though you meant that you dont want the interpretation of the Quran but the Quran itself(it sure looked tht way) which ofcourse makes no sense. 3rdly i dont think QXP focuses on spiritual but the scientific/rational interpretation of the Quran. GOD Bless! -
Peace,
If you claim that your following the exact same proceures as bro Arnold referring to classic Arabic dictionaries, taking into account context and grammar then it would surprise me if boith of you wont come to approximately the same or very close conlusions at most in a couple of years
You're are right. For instance Ayman and I have come to very, very close conclusions. But its sometimes those little things left that just pick at you. I also wish it didn't take years.
Now, Arnold I may disagree on your point of view of the world eventually coming to the Quran system. However, I would like some reasons for why you discount pilgrimage and if pilgrimage and debate can exist in the same context. I told you my bias was that I always saw debate as the source of jidaal. Can you explain how hajj's meaning of debate can be reconciled with jidaal. What about the hijj that we all owe to God. Is that a debate? Don't these debates go on all the time, as another brother pointed out even here on this net. What is the benefit of debate, how is it positive and how can it not be considered jidaal?
Godbless,
Anwar -
Salaam Anwer,
The difference between the debate here on the Forum and the Hajj I believe is the subjects and the scale. On this forum we discuss things on a personal scale, they affect personal lives of the members and viewers, we discuss interpretations and so on. But these discussions do not solve wars or raise fundings for hungerinfected regions. I believe the Hajj is meant for Global-scale discussions. And I believe we can avoid jidaal/quarreling by appointing arbiters, so that it remains in the positive direction and the disputes can be solved. What we owe to God is to gain peace on Earth, be one again as He had created us in the past. As for the benefits of Hajj conference, Muslims of all over the whole world come together, in like what you said, Quranic gatherings, to discuss all sorts of society issues, to solve problems and add positive actions to humanity.
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Peace,
First, my name is Anwar not Anwer. It's okay, I just wanted to correct that mistake.
Second, I had an enlightenment just now. The Quran says there is to be no jidaal during hajj. If we are to understand hajj correctly in this context then we cannot understand it in anyway that includes jidaal. I have always translated jidaal as arguing or disputing. And some here tried to distinguish that from debate. However, if we look at 16125 (Thanks for pointing this out Damon ), We read
"?nvite to the way of your lord with wisdom and excellent/beautiful preaching/admonition. And argue with them (jaadil-hum) in ways that are best and most gracious/beautiful."
The noun of jaadala is jidaal, showing that jidaal can be done in an excellent, beautiful and most gracious way. That means that jidaal is just a dispute or the act of giving mutual statements and rebutals.
If we take that into consideration we cannot distinguish jidaal from hajj (as argument) in the context of the Quran. Literally hajj/hajjah may be more about logical debate, but jidaal is just dispute or arguing and includes logical dispute and illogical dispute. Therfore hajj falls under jidaal (as productive as logical debate may be) if we see it as debate, quranically.
Therefore in the Quranic context and through the Classical Arabic context hajj as debate falls under jidaal and this disallows our understanding hajj as debate when the Quran mentions that there is to be no jidaal during the hajj. Therefore we should only understand this word as pilgrimage, the journey to a respected/important place for a respected/important reason.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Salaam all
Muslims of all over the whole world come together, in like what you said, Quranic gatherings,
Hajj is an invitation by submitters to mankind, not just believers. Since jidaal, as appears in the quraan, is mostly on religious matters, this should be avoided.
Again, since hajj is a call to people, it cannot have a religious meaning like "pilgrimage". It is meant to discuss our worldly matters and well being of nation of all creed (2 27-2
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Peace,
Samia, How does 2127-128 indicate that the hajj is an invitation by those who claim faith in the Quran to the rest of mankind? Where are the clues that you have that make you think this? From what I see it is the place where believers in the Quran and in Abraham's religion(God bless him) come together to praise God and strengthen each other and our ties so that we can witness the benefit of this convention of godly people. It is here that we are to decorate each other, slaughter the sacrifical animals and partake of them together and praise and celebrate God through the various traditions that we use to praise our forefathers, celebrating him with bigger celebration than we give to our forefathers.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar, Arnold, all,
I believe she is referring to 2226-28
2226 - talks about Al bayt
2227 says its for Annas
Also look at 396-97, it'd definitely for mankind
396 Inna awwala baytin wudiAAa lilnnasi lallathee bibakkata mubarakan wahudan lilAAalameena
396 The first house established for the people is the one in Bakk'a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
397 Feehi ayatun bayyinatun maqamu ibraheema waman dakhalahu kana aminan walillahi AAala alnnasi hijju albayti mani istataAAa ilayhi sabeelan waman kafara fainna Allaha ghaniyyun AAani alAAalameena
397 In it are clear signs the trial spot of Abraham. And whoever enters it will be secure. And God is owed from the people to make Pilgrimage to the Sanctuary, whoever can make a path to it. And whoever rejects, then God has no need of the worlds.
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Peace,
396 Inna awwala baytin wudiAAa lilnnasi lallathee bibakkata mubarakan wahudan lilAAalameena
I have a different interpretation of this verse. I think the bi before bakkata should be pronouced elongatedly as a ya, (in the Quran kasrah and ya are used interchangeably). I think that seeing it as bi as in with/in is an interpretation of the Quran and not the way it was and always has been.
Secondly belief and faith in God is a call to all mankind period. So it is obvious that what the Quran calls for mankind to do, only the faithful will do. Look at all of the other positions where the Quran says yaa ayuhaa annaasu, mankind is not doing all these things, nor will he eventually. Even belief in the Quran is for all mankind, yet all mankind has not and will not accept the Quran. Saying that they will is like saying that there will be no disbelievers and voids all of the passages in the Quran that deal with disbelievers. Let's not let extreme optimism and humanism interfere with our understanding of the Quran especially with a phras that has many other uses throughout the Quran and does not fit into the idea of all mankind accepting what the Quran has to say to mankind.
Everything in the Quran is a call out to the faithful in God among mankind, and a call to mankind for him to be faithful to God. The addressing of believers specifically and mankind specifically does not make the commandments that follow directed just to the believers or all of mankind (believers or not). The whole of the Quran consists of an address to all mankind, addresses to the last prophet, to different communities within humanity and to those who have chosen to be faithful to God amidst all of the communities of mankind. The faithful accept the Quran and whereas the Quran tells for instance Jews and Christians to mantain their God given rites he tells all of the believers no matter what previous tradition or if having no previous tradition to make pilgrimage to God's houses. I would hope to see Jews who only follow the words of Moses and God's prophets (including Christ, God bless them all) having also accepted the Quran making this pilgrimage side by side with me, as well as Christians who only follow the words of Christ.
That is the way I see it.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Arnold,
Nice article ).
Which sources did you use to study the history of Mecca?
I read an interesting article that said Hajj/debate was actually held somewhere else.
Assuming that a Quran alone state does materialize, does the location of the hajj/debate matter?
group
peace
Why must there be a state. Why is everyone always interested in a state. There is a sunni state in Saudi Arabia and a Shia one in Iran and now we have to find a Koranic state? Why can't we just do what the Koran ordered the prophet to do and just preach and warn mankind.
2256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.
1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .
6107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.
479-80 Say'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."
1128 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it??
1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.
21107-109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour is near or far."
2267 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord. You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, `God best knows what you do."
24.54. Say "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).
8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.
4828 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.
3616 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said, "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'
3941 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.
426 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....
6412 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.
6725 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."
10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand
28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.
109.1-6 Say O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.
74.11-17 Leave Me with whom I created alone!, To whom I granted resources in abundance, And sons to be by his side, To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable, Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);- By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!, Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities!
"So have We appointed for every Prophet an enemy - devils of men and Jinns; who inspire each other with seductive, deceptive speech which leads astray; but had thy Lord willed they would not have done so. So leave them with what they do devise. And let the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter listen to it; and let them be well pleased with it; and let them gain what they can gain!" 6113-114
"And when you see those who meddle with Our revelations, withdraw from them until they meddle with another topic. And if the devil causes you to forget, sit not, after the remembrance, with the congregation of wrongdoers. 668
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Peace,
I agree, no need for a state. I am against Quranic statehood, mainly because the Quran says that the last prophet (God bless him) was no one's controller, musaitirun (lasta 3alayhim bimusaitirin). A state is a system of control, saitarah, and that is not what our last prophet and his message recommend. I have said over and over again that what the Amish/Menonites have is very close to what the Quran is calling us to self-sufficient communities and a Quranic order and a Quranic codex of policies and rules that we CHOOSE to live by. We don't need a state. What we need is a strong organizaton committed to both realistic and Quranic goals of self-sufficiency, sustainability, quality of life, promotion our Quranic, Abrahamic beliefs and way of life and realistic, non-bombastic, and not too worldy goals of success in this life and the next.
Please, please, please do research on the Amish way of life (not necessarily their ideologies) and imagine a Quranic way of life like that. These people have real skills, they can build, restore, farm, sow and set up small businesses to bring in outside money. They are a church community that can fully take care of themselves, only depend on themselves and as it turns out one of the wealthies and fastest growing communities in the U.S. You would think they were poor riding around in there buggies but that have more material and immaterial wealth than all other communities in the U.S.
I have alot of ideas of how to create a quality life as well in such a community. With the following we could live quality lives as a Quranic church oriented, self-sufficient community.
Consider the following
Gober gas aparati (Bio-methane) (Check out on youtube)
Super Adobe, earth architecture (Cal-Earth, check out youtube)
Efficient Microbes (check out on you tube)
micro-gasifiers (check out on youtube)Other helpful equipment are plows, presses and mills, spindles. fresian wells, water pumps, cysterns and filters (to refilter and reuse grey water as well as to filter rain water.)
But with real skills we could only depend on ourselves, have 99 percent closed-cycle sustainability and bring in extra money to contribute to Quranic endeavors. Honestly with these tools and proper land plannng, a Quranic community could live freely and indepedentantly with housing for everyone with a main sanctuary and prosper.
Subtropics and tropics are preferable for this plan. As sugar cane bagasse (which grows up into zone 8, in the U.S. that is as high as coast North Carolina) figures in as a source of fuel. I would also consider using bamboo and pine straw (roof can be topped with ceramic, zinc or other materials because it's a hidden roof anyway, hence raised walls) for roofing with raised walls and a simple water catchment system.
Godbless,
Anwar