I know what sex is, what is illegal sex?
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peace JK
JK- You see it will happen naturally. People will realize that science is the only way to go and we can see the tendency of people moving towards that which makes their lifes better and more prosperous. Freewill or not has nothing to do with it and there is no contradiction whatsoever.
And when will they realize that?
Please show me proof that society always "tends towards perfection." I find it very, very hard to believe that.JK- I think now your being ridiculous. Its not modern science which is destroying the planet. On the contary rekneable energy sources are trying to save the planet but those Mullah sheikhs of saudi want more money and hence theyr currently resisting these to sell their filthy oil which is the source of much polution today. Science has and always will work for the betterment of the environment altogether. The corporates and the elite are the ones ruining it.
What uses oil? what uses CFCs that destroy the Ozone? isn't it the facilities that you said almost everyone enjoys today? Will these mullah sheikhs of sauid have any power if we stopped driving our luxury cars? Wouldn't millions of people be better off if NASA stopped wasting billions of dollars on trying to find life on Mars?
I'm not arguing against the scientific method, but against your idea that technological developments will create a better society. Unless you have proof that it's going to happen, you cannot believe that it ever will.JK- They do work. Theyr just waiting to be accepted. If one doesnt accept them then whos fault is it, the Quran's or the ones who dont accept it?
OK. But you are yet to PROVE that these laws work.
- I never said we wuld live in a perfect society but things tend towards perfection. This is obvious.
It is not obvious, and you calling something obvious won't make me believe it. I need to see some proof.
and I asked you for the verse where it mentions the punishment for adulterers, but nevermind.JK- No on the contrary the Quran's message would be in agreement with science. People have different understandings of the Quran because theyr not employing the scientific method not because they are. You have it the exact opposite way around.
It has nothing to do with the scientific method. On some things people will agree, but others they won't, no matter how much of the scientific method they follow. For example a literal vs symbolic interpretation of the Quran.
JK- Not getting into a contract would mean shying away from responsibility and everyone knows tht this is wrong. If one does not have the knoweldge yet in this regard, which i highly doubt any sane person would, then GOD wouldnt punis him/her since He judges by intentions. In tht case it is the repsonsibility of those who know to enlighten the others and get the laws put into action which is exactly wht wer trying to do.
Let's say you have a girlfriend. You love her. You are completely committed to her. You KNOW that you are going to spend the rest of the life with her. Now, why do you need it written down? You have yet to explain that to me. If you didn't want to spend the rest of your life with someone, you wouldn't sign a contract. So the contract really is unecessary. You will tell others that you have decided to live together (or get married) and they will be your witnesses (if you need them). The idea of responsibility has nothing to do with a contract, since a dishonest person can also sign a contract. People can lie and pretend to be committed to someone. I'll reply to the rest later...
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It shouldn't be expensive to get married with your spouse because it's an agreement only and you can celebrate it as you like.
I know that many have that excuse, I cannot afford to get married hmm that so ridiculous.
Maria I don't think it's always about the ceremony of marriage that people complain that they can't afford. You're right that modest ceremonies/parties are better to keep costs down and sensible.
But it's what happens afterwards. The need for a house, transport, food, expenses of daily life are not cheap these days. Young people who are living with their parents and don't have much to their names and are not in a position to not be able to afford it and that is unfortunately not ridiculous at all.
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I know that many have that excuse, I cannot afford to get married hmm that so ridiculous.
So like, I cannot marry because my work just pays for school and rent. I can't have a descent job since society requires a college diploma and skills. I cannt get a wife because i live with my Mother who thinks i ll be her little cuddle bear for ever. Would you like to live with your husband's mom?
I personally think that my mother just makes my life harder since she keeps me spoiled. If i am sick she ll take me to a doctor. If I am hungry she will feed me. If I am cold, she ll buy me cloths. But the thing is I have to do this by myself because I don't want to be spoiled, I ll be one useless person later. So taking that in mind, If i must to be independent to "own" a wife it also means i must have an excelent job, a house, a car and saved money for summer vacations... don't tell me no its not true i wont believe you...
Girls now a days won't recognize a man until he is spending on them. Do you think beautiful women will settle down for nothing? They have beauty and they put it in the markey for us, the higher bidding man. It's society now. Women just because they get that little attention from someone they think that they are hot therefor asking to be spoiled. Do you really think a woman will want me broke? even some fat ugly person would want me rich just because she knows i will ask for sex(although i wont i dont like fat ugly girls) Seriously.. will a woman go for my looks and my personality?! First reaction would be, why don't get a reaaaaaaaaaal job!
I don't want an ugly woman who would love me because i am nice to her. I am generally nice and honest to everyone. I like nice looking people with good personalities.I am not bad looking although just cant provide money for luxury... It doesn't mean i cheat on everyone........
Women are costly. Most of the time i cant level with their mentality since they are stupid. but the thing that keeps me comming is that little beauty they use to seduce me. It's crazy. I like beautiful idiots. Most girls i been with have no clue about the world all they know is that they are beautiful and that they can get any man they want depending on their beauty. its so hard to find a smart and good looking girl who is relaxed and doesnt flip out once in a while.... geez
-peace
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Peace "phoenix",
peace JK
And when will they realize that?
Please show me proof that society always "tends towards perfection." I find it very, very hard to believe that.What uses oil? what uses CFCs that destroy the Ozone? isn't it the facilities that you said almost everyone enjoys today? Will these mullah sheikhs of sauid have any power if we stopped driving our luxury cars?JK- The problem is we cannot immediately stop driving cars. People have a tendency to continue as theyve learned or wht theyr used to but slowly and gradually they realize and this can be seen in all parts of the world where we have people who actually care for the environment. Others will follow gradually. Take the example of cigararette smoking. It took many years for the US and Britain to realize the dangers and then quit it altogether but they did it, so did the EU and Germany too is following although theyr a bit more lazy in this regard.
Wouldn't millions of people be better off if NASA stopped wasting billions of dollars on trying to find life on Mars?
JK- Im sorry to say but only shortsighted people would make such a claim. Ofcourse one might say lets help the poor first before going to mars BUT for that we already have and must have separate institutions. NASA's duty is to explore space which if successful can help humanity tremedously so much tht much if not all poverty can be eradicated at once. Ever given tht a thought?
I'm not arguing against the scientific method, but against your idea that technological developments will create a better society. Unless you have proof that it's going to happen, you cannot believe that it ever will.
JK- If you cant see tht then i cant really help you accept tht you may wanna read up some scientific journals in this regard or ask the JREF how it helps. Im sure they can give you tons of info.
OK. But you are yet to PROVE that these laws work.
JK- Yes thts true and wer willing to do these tests. We can say already tht theyll most probably work because the other Quranic statments have withstood the test of time and also the verse are connected by an intricate mathetical pattern. Thus all thts left if to test the laws by applying them practically and thts exactly wht we wanna do but ppl have to be ready and willing and it would greatly amaze me if this wld not happen sooner or later. It would create a paradox for me.
It is not obvious, and you calling something obvious won't make me believe it. I need to see some proof.
and I asked you for the verse where it mentions the punishment for adulterers, but nevermind.JK- As i said reg. the first part plz refer to scientific journals or the JREF. As for the verse
The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes(the lashes MAY be interpreted as being symbolic). Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty.
As regards to women theyr more protcted though
Those who accuse chaste women of adultery, then fail to produce four witnesses, you shall whip them eighty lashes, and do not accept any testimony from them; they are wicked.It has nothing to do with the scientific method. On some things people will agree, but others they won't, no matter how much of the scientific method they follow. For example a literal vs symbolic interpretation of the Quran.
JK- I dont agree with you since this would lead to a paradox. If one applies the scientific method correctly meaning in this case taking grmar, context and use of terminology into account one can figure out whther some phrase is used literally or symbolically. Just because many people have never engaged in this work before or dont have the know how as yet, doesnt mean it aint possible.
Let's say you have a girlfriend. You love her. You are completely committed to her. You KNOW that you are going to spend the rest of the life with her. Now, why do you need it written down? You have yet to explain that to me.
JK- Its easy. YOU CAN NEVER KNOW WHETHER YOUR THOUGHTS WOULD CHANGE TOMORROW BECAUSE OF THE HIGH VOLATILE NATURE OF THE HUMAN PSYCHE. I made this very clear but you obviously missed it. You can see this everywhere. Today you love your partner, tomorrow something happens and your separated and/or dont like each other anymore sometimes even to the extent of hating one another. So please be realistic. The children should not suffer because of this. And btw im not talking abt a mere peace of paper. The point is to be registered at the society and im thinking of free minds to start with an electronic signature contract for couples. Well have a database of those who wanna be together and if anyone shies away from responsibility tht person wld be taken to account later on.
If you didn't want to spend the rest of your life with someone, you wouldn't sign a contract. So the contract really is unecessary. You will tell others that you have decided to live together (or get married) and they will be your witnesses (if you need them). The idea of responsibility has nothing to do with a contract, since a dishonest person can also sign a contract. People can lie and pretend to be committed to someone. I'll reply to the rest later...
JK- Ofcourse you can lie but then youll be taken to account as one of the partners whos being left alone will then go to the community and ask for her partner to be responsible. Theyll then open the database check whether the partner has signed and then take him to account easily because his name, date of birth, the person's agreement on the set rules and regulations etc would all be readily at their disposal so no one would shy away from responsibility. If this is not done then one can always say "I didnt sleep with her", wht the hell are you talking about. Then you have to run after tht person and who knows he might be in the end of the world throwing parties, ocne youve got him make expensive DNA tests and then lastly find out tht it was actually the woman who was lying because she wanted the money. It all gets very complicated which a written or an e-contract could solve easily as ive already mentioned. GOD Bless!
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Peace Truth and Weinmar,
Ok, you are of course right in what you says that it costs alot to live on your own. I nearly forgot about that because I live here in Good old rich Sweden.
If you cannot survive here the society will help you pay your rent and for food.
But please don't see me as a spoiled rich woman, because I'm not, i have never been rich and I have always have less money than I need.
But in a marriage in todays modern world, both males and females works outside home for their living so the male shouldn't feel like he has to have the only responsibility to put food on the table.
I do understand though that it's kind of impossible to get married when you still study but I think it depends on where you are living in the world and how the society looks like where you are living.
Peace
Maria -
YOU CAN NEVER KNOW WHETHER YOUR THOUGHTS WOULD CHANGE TOMORROW BECAUSE OF THE HIGH VOLATILE NATURE OF THE HUMAN PSYCHE.
Speak for yourself, Jonny.
My opinion of my partner may change, and with that my committment to her, but I do not see how that makes a written contract necessary. All I need to do then, is to break the contract through a divorce (in fact, all i need to do is tell my partner i don't want to see her again and it's over). There is nothing wrong with that whatsoever. I'm sure you agree.
what is wrong is if I want to stick with my partner, but I fool around with another woman just for the pleasure, and don't give enough attention to my partner because of it. that is wrong.
Getting to the actual matter, does it deserve legal punishment? isn't it something private? what I did was morally wrong, but i did not actually take away anyone's freedom, or anyone's rights, or anyones property.
We cannot start punishing people for hurting others' feelings. Or can we? You are yet to give me a decent argument.What Savage carrot said, about the punishment being for adultery in public, makes a little more sense, but it still has huge holes in it.
So, my question is, is it is legal punishment? or a personal punishment?
I think this is where the infamous "beating wives" verse would come into play. I would punish my partner by leaving th e bed, by seperating, until the problem is solved. What is your opinion of this understanding?I will reply to the rest of your points later. I have been too busy playing God of War II. But I think the above is pretty much the crux of the issue.
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Peace "phoenix",
Speak for yourself, Jonny.
My opinion of my partner may change, and with that my committment to her, but I do not see how that makes a written contract necessary. All I need to do then, is to break the contract through a divorce (in fact, all i need to do is tell my partner i don't want to see her again and it's over). There is nothing wrong with that whatsoever. I'm sure you agree.JK- The stameent in parathesis is where you went wrong again. Yes you break the contract if you dont get along and you should. I never claimed otherwise. But the piece of paper will not be torn apart. You former partner as well as you as well as the database will keep the info so tht if a child gets born or an STD occurs no one can shy away from responsibility. This is my pt dont u get it?
what is wrong is if I want to stick with my partner, but I fool around with another woman just for the pleasure, and don't give enough attention to my partner because of it. that is wrong.
JK- Did i say tht this was right? But if by fooling you mean mere fondling without the actual penetration with repsect to the other woman then its a morl issue which i agree is also wrong.
Getting to the actual matter, does it deserve legal punishment? isn't it something private? what I did was morally wrong, but i did not actually take away anyone's freedom, or anyone's rights, or anyones property.
JK- In one case explained above yes its moral. In the other case its legal because you would/could then shy away from responsibility making legal pursuit difficult.
We cannot start punishing people for hurting others' feelings. Or can we? You are yet to give me a decent argument.
JK- OH MAN, WER NOT. brickwall Wer punishing those who shy away from reponsibility.
So, my question is, is it is legal punishment? or a personal punishment?
JK- I think ive made both cases clear now.
I think this is where the infamous "beating wives" verse would come into play. I would punish my partner by leaving th e bed, by seperating, until the problem is solved. What is your opinion of this understanding?
JK- The problem is the misinterpreation of the word "daraba" whose root doesnt even mean beating at all(bro Arnold has mentioned this before). It can mean to seprate in the context or to have pleasureful sex and i personally go for the latter. This makes sense because first you admoish then youll seprate for a while, then as slowly and gradually more and more passion builds up you have a very pleasureful time. Thereafter your much more able to dicuss the issue over again and the problem/conflict is most likely solved. Theres no beating whatsoever. GOD Bless!
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What Savage carrot said, about the punishment being for adultery in public, makes a little more sense, but it still has huge holes in it.
Lets discuss these orbs of nothingness then.
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peace SC,
Hole #1 How do people know that the couple they are seeing is not married? or IS married?
Hole #2 If we punish them, there will be a trial, wouldn't people find out about it anyway?
Well, that's two, maybe their not "holes" exactly but they are things that I need cleared up.
What I think is that it shouldn't matter who a person is hanging out with or sleeping with, it's a private matter. There isn't a punishment for someone using drugs or drinking or smoking in public.Jonny, today we have something called DNA tests, which can determine the parents of a child, no need for a written contract to determine parenthood. In fact, a contract can actually be decieving in finding out who the father is because I can have a contract with one girl, and have a child with another without a contract. So a contract is not only useless, it is actually really bad evidence.
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Hole #1 How do people know that the couple they are seeing is not married? or IS married?
The law exists so that the social scene remains intact. That means married or unmarried you cannot have sex in front of others given that the possibility of reporting said situation exists. This can be used in cases for example, where a married couple decides to put on a porn show for others (live action or not) and you basically can't do anything about it unless four people witness it and complain/report. I've previously discussed this with bro Ayman and it coincides with verse 243 which says that that those who commit "zina" do not marry except one who commits it too. So even when married, they are still considered "zani" and "zaniyat".
Simple rule, don't do it, sex is private, not in the open and shouldn't be a commercial enterprise. Secondly, given the amount of freedom in the verses, the four witnesses who see it live then report it if they choose to, it's pretty open.
Hole #2 If we punish them, there will be a trial, wouldn't people find out about it anyway?
Er, find out about what exactly? You can only punish them if they are seen by witnesses in the act.
What I think is that it shouldn't matter who a person is hanging out with or sleeping with, it's a private matter. There isn't a punishment for someone using drugs or drinking or smoking in public.
It's a private matter unless you bring it out in the open and witnesses start getting involved. Using drugs and other things such as that are left open to deal with as the authorities choose. Anything that harms others should be dealt with and not everything that harms others is listed, we should use our own discretion in matters left unspoken.
I don't see anything wrong with the concept but if there is a problem with the punishment itself i.e. lashes as opposed to fines etc, that is a seperate topic. Peace.
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Peace "phoenix",
Jonny, today we have something called DNA tests, which can determine the parents of a child, no need for a written contract to determine parenthood. In fact, a contract can actually be decieving in finding out who the father is because I can have a contract with one girl, and have a child with another without a contract. So a contract is not only useless, it is actually really bad evidence.
JK- You still dont get it do you. We cant just go around performing DNA tests. It is expensive and also one must know the father to take a sample from him otherwise it is useless. Moreover the contract serves as a database where ppl have a tendency to be with more than one woman during their lives. It then becomes easy when somebody enters a new contract for the new partner to look at the past no of partners which the one has or should have a right to before making a decision. Also the government, which is or should be US, can use the databse in case one decides to shy away from repsonsibility by running off unidentified. GOD Bless!
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Peace "phoenix",
There isn't a punishment for someone using drugs or drinking or smoking in public.
JK- Ofcourse theres punishment for one using drugs in most states of the US and also most European countries except Holland. As regards smoking tht too is banned in public and theres a heavy fine except for lazy Germany whove yet to consider this law. As for alcohol tht is a bit more difficult as small amounts maynot immediately lead to violent or uncontrolled behaviour so more scientific research is needed in this area but bans were discussed on a TV program ere in Germany reg. tht as well. GOD Bless!
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Alright, Carrot, I get it. It is SEX in PUBLIC. thanks for having patience with me.
Jonny, dude, you keep talking about technology and scientific advancement and going to another planet, but when I mention DNA tests, you say "they're too expensive." You just gave up on science because it doesn't fit your beliefs.
About using contracts to determine the father...well, a woman can sign a contract with you, and then go around having sex with male prostitutes. Unless you find out about her antics, when she gets pregnant from one of those gigolos, you will have to pay for the child. This is why a contract wouldn't work.
If you have a simple DNA test, we'll know for sure who the father is.
But let's say you are vigilant and you find out about your wife's secret sex life, you would still need to do a DNA test to determine which of the guys she slept with is actually the father. -
Peace,
Oh My God, what a mess really.
I feel so disgusted that we heading to this level now, I mean that there seems to be a lack of morality and trust among spouse.
Maybe it is indeed close to the day of judgment afterall -\
Maria
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Peace "phoenix",
Jonny, dude, you keep talking about technology and scientific advancement and going to another planet, but when I mention DNA tests, you say "they're too expensive." You just gave up on science because it doesn't fit your beliefs.
JK- brickwall brickwall brickwall Phoenix, DUUUUUUUUUDDDDE, why dont you understand what im trying to say. I never said we shouldnt use DNA tests. On the contrary im all for it BUT how will you perform a DNA test if the man whom you are to test against the child aint there and you dont know who it is? Dont you see the point your missing?
About using contracts to determine the father...well, a woman can sign a contract with you, and then go around having sex with male prostitutes. Unless you find out about her antics, when she gets pregnant from one of those gigolos, you will have to pay for the child. This is why a contract wouldn't work.
If you have a simple DNA test, we'll know for sure who the father is.JK- Again i told you im all for a DNA test and it should and must be used as an additional test. Theres no doubt here.
But let's say you are vigilant and you find out about your wife's secret sex life, you would still need to do a DNA test to determine which of the guys she slept with is actually the father.
JK- And here we go again where did you read in my posts that i denied the use of DNA tests? What i said is that we cant use them without any reason testing random ppl for whom we have no clue tht they did anything otherwise we might just test the entire world. GOD Bless!
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peace,
If a child is born, we ask the mother who the father is. Out of the possible candidates, one must turn out to be the father. Maybe we should have DNA records of everyone, so that the parents are identified. It all depends on whether you want to put your trust in a piece of paper or want better evidence. As I have shown you quite clearly, your argument that a written contract solves the problem of people shying away from the responsibility of raising a child doesn't work. -
Peace "phoenix",
peace,
If a child is born, we ask the mother who the father is. Out of the possible candidates, one must turn out to be the father. Maybe we should have DNA records of everyone, so that the parents are identified. It all depends on whether you want to put your trust in a piece of paper or want better evidence. As I have shown you quite clearly, your argument that a written contract solves the problem of people shying away from the responsibility of raising a child doesn't work.JK- I agree tht a contract alone may not be sufficient but it sure makes things hell lot more easy especially when a woman doesnt remember who shes been with because she been with so many which happens also. What if the guy is a mystery man who seduces a woman for one night and then wonders off with his identity unknwon? Again the same problems and no DNA will help. It all becomes very dificult to pursue the person. GOD Bless!
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peace to you all
i have not read all the posts, especially the long ones, as i find it difficult from dyslexia, so please excuse me if i am repeating what someone else has said.
i have been seeking the truth on this matter too. there is a verse that might help us here
5101 O you who believe, do not ask about things which, if revealed to you, would harm you; and if you ask about them after the Qur'an has been sent down, then they will become clear to you. God pardons for them, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate.
Does this mean that if we ask about unlawful sexual intercourse, then it will be made clear to us? i hope so.
Also important, i feel, is this verse
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge, they say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.
Does this mean that we should not try to interpret 'unlawful sexual intercourse' for ourselves?
Also in consideration on this issue, i have taken this verse
2185 A month, marked by heat, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
so it is a guide, a clarification of the guidance, and the criterion. so if the Qur'an is clarification of its own guidance, doesnt this mean that the answer to 'what is unlawful sexual intercourse' should be contained within it?
Also is this verse
1854 And We have clarified in this Qur'an for the people from every example; but mankind was always most argumentative.
So can we find any examples in the Qur'an from which we can gain clarification on this issue?
finally let us remember these verses
20113 And it was such that We sent it down as an Arabic compilation, and We clarified in it some of the warnings, perhaps they will become aware or it will cause for them a remembrance.
20114 Then High above all is God, the King, the True. And do not be hasty with the Qur'an before its inspiration is completed to you, and say "My Lord, increase my knowledge."so let us not be hasty to come to conclusions before God has inspired us to understand, and let us pray to God 'My Lord, increase my knowledge' as we are instructed.
that is where i have gotten on this issue so far.