Anyone Prays in Non-English?
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peace
i know translations may not be 100% accurate as we've seen in other topics here.
but it still counts. honesty and sincerity are the most important things. so we may not verbaly say the exact words that were revealed but our hearts say enough.also, if it's not too much trouble, could you explain the true meaning of 4064?
just the "Most Exalted is God" part.since you say it's limited or not living up to it's true meaning. -
Salaam IQ
What's the Arabic word for this "recite" which means "reicte in the original language in which the book was revealed"?
Salaam Samia
I think its Ta-Lam-Wao. Is it correct?
And what doest this verse mean?
2121
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Salaams Samia,
I think you are very familiar with the words used in Al Quran for recite. So I won't play games like that with the message. My question to you is do you believe that translations are also Al Quran? If so, can you tell me which translations are Al Quran and which ones aren't? And if they are not Al Quran, then how do you recite Al Quran from a translation?
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
I honestly do not know what word you mean by "reciting". Is it "yaqra'" or "yatlu" or "yurattel"? All these verbs are used. And what is the exact meaning of "to recite"? Is it like learning it by heart? (that'a what the teacher used to ask us to do...recite the verb conjugation, or a poem...).
When you read anything in any language, your brain processes what you understand, irrespective of the language it is conveyed in. Changing God's words does not mean translating them into another language, but changing their meaning. What's the point of reading a verse in Arabic with a word that means "to copy" while I am made to understand it as (to abrogate)? A translator might have grasped the correct meaning and translated it correctly. In this case, I, who am reading it in Arabic, am changing the word of God, whereas he who is reading it in English, e.g., is not.
As for your other question, I do not know what you understand by the word "quraan". It is an Arabic word that means "a reading". The only book of "qur'aan" I have is in the form of parallel text English/Arabic. When I discuss with my children or explain to them, I do it in English because they are not very good in Arabic (they read and speak the language, though) and honestly I do not feel that this is not quraan. As for me, I am more comfortable with the Arabic "quraan", not because it is more "quraanic", but simply because I am much better in Arabic than in English.
I hope I have answered your questions.
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I honestly do not know what word you mean by "reciting". Is it "yaqra'" or "yatlu" or "yurattel"? All these verbs are used. And what is the exact meaning of "to recite"? Is it like learning it by heart? (that'a what the teacher used to ask us to do...recite the verb conjugation, or a poem...).
When you read anything in any language, your brain processes what you understand, irrespective of the language it is conveyed in. Changing God's words does not mean translating them into another language, but changing their meaning. What's the point of reading a verse in Arabic with a word that means "to copy" while I am made to understand it as (to abrogate)? A translator might have grasped the correct meaning and translated it correctly. In this case, I, who am reading it in Arabic, am changing the word of God, whereas he who is reading it in English, e.g., is not.
As for your other question, I do not know what you understand by the word "quraan". It is an Arabic word that means "a reading". The only book of "qur'aan" I have is in the form of parallel text English/Arabic. When I discuss with my children or explain to them, I do it in English because they are not very good in Arabic (they read and speak the language, though) and honestly I do not feel that this is not quraan. As for me, I am more comfortable with the Arabic "quraan", not because it is more "quraanic", but simply because I am much better in Arabic than in English.
I hope I have answered your questions.
Salaams Samia,
So would you be fine with not having an arabic Quran and just an english one to "recite", "study", "learn" from? Or do you feel there is a must need for the arabic Quran, "book" as well? If so, why?
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Peace IQO,
That is not a fallacy, that is how humans learn; whether in one language or another.
Precisely! But it is a fallacy because the translation of the instructor(when studying Arabic) or the translation of the translator(when reading a translated text) are equally translated.
That's what translation means. So learning a language or reading a translation hold the same exact weight.
eg.
Professor Y teaches me that "ameese" means "shirt".
Professor Y, in his translation, does not mention "ameese", but only mentions "shirt".Either way, my mind equates the word to the same exact concept.
Peace,
Tay -
Salaams Samia,
So would you be fine with not having an arabic Quran and just an english one to "recite", "study", "learn" from? Or do you feel there is a must need for the arabic Quran, "book" as well? If so, why?
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
It is not a question of being fine, but of convenience. I can't reply to this question in an experimental way. A more fit person for this would be a natural bilingual. Moreover, I am a translator, so for me whenever I read or listen to something, I unconsciously translate it in my mind to the other language. But to cut it short to your understanding, I take the quraan as a message, not as a book written in a sacred language. As for its beauty, what do you expect from something coming from God? If He had revealed it in English, it would have been equally beautiful, and its translation into Arabic would have been less beautiful, but I would have the same opinion I would have read it in Arabic.
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Peace IQO,
Precisely! But it is a fallacy because the translation of the instructor(when studying Arabic) or the translation of the translator(when reading a translated text) are equally translated.
That's what translation means. So learning a language or reading a translation hold the same exact weight.
eg.
Professor Y teaches me that "ameese" means "shirt".
Professor Y, in his translation, does not mention "ameese", but only mentions "shirt".Either way, my mind equates the word to the same exact concept.
Peace,
TaySalaams Tay and Samia,
This is exactly why Allah has preserved Al Quran in Arabic. Therefore the foundation will always be there no matter how people try change the meanings of the words of Al Quran; especially by using different languages. If we removed the Arabic Quran and its importance from this equation, this movement of Quran only wouldn't even exist. All we would have left would be the interpretations of others left, whether they be in Arabic, English or any other language. By Allah preserving His EXACT words of revelation to us, we are able to investigate and ascertain the truth from all the falsehoods that are presented. Take away the Arabic Quran, and this current process becomes null and void.
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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As-Salaamu Alaikum Samia,
Salaams Samia,
So would you be fine with not having an arabic Quran and just an english one to "recite", "study", "learn" from? Or do you feel there is a must need for the arabic Quran, "book" as well? If so, why?
As-Salaamu Alaikum,
It is not a question of being fine, but of convenience. I can't reply to this question in an experimental way. A more fit person for this would be a natural bilingual. Moreover, I am a translator, so for me whenever I read or listen to something, I unconsciously translate it in my mind to the other language. But to cut it short to your understanding, I take the quraan as a message, not as a book written in a sacred language. As for its beauty, what do you expect from something coming from God? If He had revealed it in English, it would have been equally beautiful, and its translation into Arabic would have been less beautiful, but I would have the same opinion I would have read it in Arabic.
Do you believe that it is insignificant that the Quran is preserved in Arabic today? Of course if Allah would have preserved it in any other language, that version would have been what we are discussing. Arabic in itself is not sacred language. It is the Arabic Quran that is sacred to those who have faith in it as the word of Allah.
Do you think that non arabic speakers could ever arrive at the best meaning of Al Quran without the arabic Quran? Who should they trust to give them the best translation?
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Salaam Samia
I think its Ta-Lam-Wao. Is it correct?
And what doest this verse mean?
2121
Yatlu to read and understand ; explain (yatlu 3ala someone). This is clear from this verse, because the result is they believe in it, so they must have understood it. We are not told that those who disbelieve in it do not "yatlu". So, the verse means "those to whom We revealed/given the book understand it very well, they believe in it, and whoever disbelieves in it, those are the losers".
In the quraan we have yatlu the news of Noah, the signs/verses of God.
yaqraa' has three meanings
To to deliver/convey , to gather and to recite
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Convey as in the first revealed verse iqra' in the name of thy Lord
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Gather (in an organized way) 7517,18 (it is upon Us to collect it and gather it, when We gather it (in an organized way) follow its organization).
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To recite 87 6 We will make you recite it so as not to forget
7204 "When the quraan is recited listen and be silent that you may receive mercy" Here it is clear you do not need to understand, as this is a general command.
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As-Salaamu Alaika Tay,
This is not a fallacy, the fact that one has to "learn" a language. That is a part of human existence. Even native arabic speakers have to learn arabic from their parents, family and/or school. When one studies a language, they learn the vast range of meanings that a simple word can have. This is the same in english. Nevertheless, Allah has revealed Al Quran in Arabic. It can not be improved upon by translating it to another language. Allah is translating wisdom to us. Al Quran is continously teaching and educating us. If we just leave the arabic and study translation, then we would have not foundation for wisdom. As-Salaat is a ritual designed to preserve knowledge, the knowledge of Al Quran. Make Ad-Dua in any language that one chooses. Allah hears the call of every caller.
As-Salaat is not just plain old "prayer", that we equate the term with in english. That is why I have translated it as "The Prayer", because it is a structured system given to us for our benefit in Al Quran by Allah; and He has detailed its instructions and restrictions therein.
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Asalaamu Alaykom
I couldn't agree with you more. The problem is that people think Allah depends on us for our prayers when in fact the prayer benefits only ourselves and no one else. I think when some do not see immediate gratification to their deeds they assume those deeds to be almost worthless or pointless. The point of prayer to me is that its something we do unselfishly every day and when we unselfishly do that deed we in fact are bringing ourselves closer to Allah. That is why we humble ourselves before Allah in prostration. Its not just humility, its obedience.
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As-Salaamu Alaikum Samia,
Do you believe that it is insignificant that the Quran is preserved in Arabic today? Of course if Allah would have preserved it in any other language, that version would have been what we are discussing. Arabic in itself is not sacred language. It is the Arabic Quran that is sacred to those who have faith in it as the word of Allah.
Do you think that non arabic speakers could ever arrive at the best meaning of Al Quran without the arabic Quran? Who should they trust to give them the best translation?
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
I can't say if it is significant or not, but if it was revealed in Arabic to non Arabic speakers, it would of course be significant.
Honestly, and not for proving my point, they should trust nobody with the arabic explanation of the quraan. I do not trust it anyway. I can't speak for non-native speakers, but on this forum I see many very good ones, much better than native speakers.
Do not think because I speak arabic I understand the quraan automatically. I always have "lisanul 3arab" dictionary by my side. I do not trust anybody with my understanding of the quraan. This does not mean I do not take into consideration others' points of view.
The best way to arrive to the best possible understanding is to read the quraan through the eyes of God, if I may say. If a verse tells me something that is in contradiction with, say, God's justice, I will search for other meanings, even if they are remote, as long as they exist and fit better with the attributes of God. I think this could be achieved by anyone, not necessarily arabs. This does not mean native speakers of Arabic are not in advantage, but do they necessarily make use of it? The much luggage we have from traditional teachings since young age can really paralyses our ability to better understand the quraan.
Wa 3alaikas-salaam
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Salaams Tay and Samia,
This is exactly why Allah has preserved Al Quran in Arabic. Therefore the foundation will always be there no matter how people try change the meanings of the words of Al Quran; especially by using different languages. If we removed the Arabic Quran and its importance from this equation, this movement of Quran only wouldn't even exist. All we would have left would be the interpretations of others left, whether they be in Arabic, English or any other language. By Allah preserving His EXACT words of revelation to us, we are able to investigate and ascertain the truth from all the falsehoods that are presented. Take away the Arabic Quran, and this current process becomes null and void.
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Who is talking about removing the Arabic quraan? As long as people are still believing in the message it contains, they will always need the Arabic quraan to revert to. In fact, Arabic quraan will be more reserved by non native speakers than by native speakers, because the former study it and try to understand, the latter "think" they know it, and so they do not study it and are busy reading other books. I think we are in agreement here.
I would say it is important that it is preserved, not because it is in Arabic, but because it is in its original language.
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Yatlu to read and understand ; explain (yatlu 3ala someone). This is clear from this verse, because the result is they believe in it, so they must have understood it. We are not told that those who disbelieve in it do not "yatlu". So, the verse means "those to whom We revealed/given the book understand it very well, they believe in it, and whoever disbelieves in it, those are the losers".
I think we cannot limit this verse to particular people and specific time. It is for all of us.
yu/minoona bihi are those who yatloonahu haqqa tilawatihi and those who are not yatloonahu haqqa tilawatihi are yakfur bihi and for not doing so they are faola-ika humu alkhasiroona
The following Allatheena ataynahumu alkitaba is like 72 when it says to prophet only Kitabun onzila ilayka and in verse 73 it says to all of us IttabiAAoo ma onzila ilaykum
As you have said <<"those to whom We revealed/given the book understand it very well">> definetly the book was revealed in plain Arabic and even the kuffar were able to read and understand it but what was the difference in kuffar's understanding and believer's understanding? The only difference is kuffars are not the follower of the book but the believers are, and this would be true till the end of time. That is why I think we should not limit the verse to any people and time.
One more thing, the root Ta-Lam-Wao has also the meaning of following. For example in the verse
912 Waalqamari itha talaha
And the moon when it follows the sun,Everyone can read and understand the book but those who read/understand and follow it as it should be followed are the real believers and those who know it read it/ listen it/ understand it but do not follow are the disbelievers and would be khasiroon.
salam
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As-Salaamu Alaikum Samia,
This, we are in agreement with.
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Who is talking about removing the Arabic quraan? As long as people are still believing in the message it contains, they will always need the Arabic quraan to revert to. In fact, Arabic quraan will be more reserved by non native speakers than by native speakers, because the former study it and try to understand, the latter "think" they know it, and so they do not study it and are busy reading other books. I think we are in agreement here.
I would say it is important that it is preserved, not because it is in Arabic, but because it is in its original language.
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Peace IQO, Samia, all,
I am in agreement here as well.
Who is talking about removing the Arabic quraan? As long as people are still believing in the message it contains, they will always need the Arabic quraan to revert to. In fact, Arabic quraan will be more reserved by non native speakers than by native speakers, because the former study it and try to understand, the latter "think" they know it, and so they do not study it and are busy reading other books. I think we are in agreement here.
I would say it is important that it is preserved, not because it is in Arabic, but because it is in its original language.
Peace,
Tay -
peace
i used to pray in arabic, but i was afraid i wouldn't prronounce the words correctly so i pray in my mother tounge (which is bosnian). but i don't think language is that important, Allah understands all languages.
you just have to be honest and mean the words you say.Salam.
I totally agree with you Nerspi.
Honesty goes a long way.
Honestly.Peace.
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Salaamun alaika brother IQO,
I agree with your points relevant to this thread but there is one point I disagree with, which is off-topic
As Salaat is only incumbent upon Al Mu'minoon, so a person should have had ample time upon becoming a "muslim" to learn some of the Quranic Arabic before they have developed to the next stage of "mu'min".
If you are not a mu'min, you are not required to perform As-Salaat.
Whereas I agree that becoming a "muslim" is the first stage before becoming a "mumin", I am of the understanding that aqeemus-salaat is obligatory upon both "muslimeen" and "mumineen".
Firstly, The God has called the believers "al-muslimeen" in the qur'aan
2277 O you who believe, kneel and prostrate and serve your Lord and do good that you may succeed.
2278 And strive in the cause of God its truly deserved striving. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the system, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you 'those who have submitted' (almuslimeen) from before as well as in this. So let the messenger be witness over you and you be witness over the people. So honor the connection and contribute towards betterment and hold tight to God, He is your patron. What an excellent Patron, and what an excellent Supporter.Secondly, The God has ordered ALL muslims to "aqeemus-salaat" at regular times in al-qur'aan. The complete proofs from al-qur'aan can be found at the following discussion I had on this subject in the past
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12990.0
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As-Salaamu Alaika Tanveer bro,
Salaamun alaika brother IQO,
I agree with your points relevant to this thread but there is one point I disagree with, which is off-topic
Whereas I agree that becoming a "muslim" is the first stage before becoming a "mumin", I am of the understanding that aqeemus-salaat is obligatory upon both "muslimeen" and "mumineen".
Firstly, The God has called the believers "al-muslimeen" in the qur'aan
2277 O you who believe, kneel and prostrate and serve your Lord and do good that you may succeed.
2278 And strive in the cause of God its truly deserved striving. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the system, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you 'those who have submitted' (almuslimeen) from before as well as in this. So let the messenger be witness over you and you be witness over the people. So honor the connection and contribute towards betterment and hold tight to God, He is your patron. What an excellent Patron, and what an excellent Supporter.I think we agree that all al-mu'mineen are also considered to be al-muslimeen. I think clearly that this is what this ayat establishes, and not the other way around that al-muslimeen are all al-mu'mineen. Therefore this ayat would only establish that everything enjoined on al-muslimeen would automatically be enjoined on al-mu-mumineen, but not vice-versa.
Secondly, The God has ordered ALL muslims to "aqeemus-salaat" at regular times in al-qur'aan. The complete proofs from al-qur'aan can be found at the following discussion I had on this subject in the past
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12990.0
I have read over the thread briefly. In general, I think most of the ayaat that you refer to point to the fact that al-muslimeen, or submission/peacefullness,etc. are included as part of the character of al-mu'mineen. I think you and Wakas eventually got to the point I wanted to make which is that 11114 is addressing the companions of the Messenger, i.e. those who turned with him. and therefore they would more likely be al-mu'mineen rather than just al-muslimeen in my opinion. I can think of ayaat that would support this in my head right now, but Im a little too tired to research to bring them out and post as proof. Allah willing, I will have time to post again and show them tomorrow. Since this is off topic, I may post my reply in that thread that you started back then that deals with this issue, from the link you provided. Until then....
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Salaamun alaika brother IQO,
In general, I think most of the ayaat that you refer to point to the fact that al-muslimeen, or submission/peacefullness,etc. are included as part of the character of al-mu'mineen. I think you and Wakas eventually got to the point I wanted to make which is that 11114 is addressing the companions of the Messenger, i.e. those who turned with him. and therefore they would more likely be al-mu'mineen rather than just al-muslimeen in my opinion.
I will wait for you to read the entire thread in detail and to research your position further from al-qur'aan. I have the refutation of your above two points (bolded) ready
Please ponder on 2234-35, 240, 283, 512 again. Look forward to further discussion on this issue in the relevant thread.