Using the word "muslim" in an english conversation
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Peace,
You will find in the Quran al-husnaa, atoubaa, ataghwaa. Al-uzaa goes along with this form, meaning all things honorable and great. Allaatu can be seen as the verbal noun from th root laata. (lawata, layata). Al-Ukhraa is 'the last, end, the ends (as opposed to the means).'
Gobless,
AnwarAlukhraa means the other. Al-akhira means the last, end...And that's one of the reasons I understand these are names allat, aluzza and the other third, minat
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Peace,
That is it's standard meaning in standard Arabic. Al-ukhraa is the feminine for aakhar (other) and aakhir (last). The feminine superlative form in Old Arabic has the meaning of conveying the absolute or utmost. You can find it in Wehr's also meaning 'The afterlife' or 'the absolute/utmost end/last' The femine ism faa'il can convey a nuetral event or phenomenon, like al-ghashiyatu(the covering) or al-waaqi&atu (the happening/even) al-qaari&atu (the calamity).
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace brother Someone,
The verses in question
5319-20I would consider "allat" and "al?zzaa" as plurals, the way they are spelled suggests this, I think. Furthermore, I am not aware of any good (archaeological..?) reason to consider them as singular proper names pointing some gods.
On the other hand, I think that these plural common nouns are descriptions of some of "the things" that people consider as "the goddesses" (for "allat"or "those put in the highest esteem" (for "al?zzaa".
In verse 5322, these nouns are defined as descriptions ("asma'oun" attributed by people to some things, considering them as goddesses and taking them in high esteem, description that are far from the reality of these things.In Arabic the word "ism" (plural "asmaa" can mean common or proper names.
The words are not plural linguistically and also logically because we are told that Manat is the third one (there are three names and 3rd implies +1 each time). Also, there are many archeological reasons, including inscriptions throughout Arabia with the names of those deities as well stone idols representing them.
The idol is a Nabataean idol and interestingly we see the Nabataean spelling Manot as opposed to the Arabic Manat used in the great reading. This means that the name was not even transliterated (let alones translated) into Arabic. So this again points to it being a proper name.
Adding to the above the fact that when those names are translated the passage doesn't make sense and the fact that those are not real descriptions by any means then we can be pretty certain that they are proper names.
"Have you seen the goddess, the strength, and the counting/apportioning the third last/other one?" is a nonsensical sentence.
In my opinion, the passage can be translated in one of the following two ways
5319-20 Have you seen Allat, Aluzza and Manat, the third other one.
5319-20 Have you seen Allat, Aluzza and Manat, the third last one.
The name of the idol Manat comes from the Semitic root "mnw/y" which is to be found in Semitic languages with the meaning of ?to count? or ?to apportion?. The name Manat being applied by pagan Arabs in particular to this idol refers to the belief that this idol controls "assigning to each his share?, hence, destiny and controls death by "counting the days of life? (hence "wafatahu al-maniyya" or "he met the (Manat) count", meaning death).
The Greco-Roman equivalents given to Manat testify to this meaning, since she is identified with Fortunae. In Palmyra she is represented on a mosaic, seated and holding a scepter in her hand, after the fashion of Nemesis, goddess of destiny.
The idols Allat, Aluzza and Manat were not completely separate but also represented a triple aspected female mother goddess. As a fertility idol, Allat was the aspect controlling birth (the beginning) as well as fertility-related elements such as the sun (her birthday is the winter solstice), water (an endless stream flowed next to her temple), and vegetation (flowers sprang up in her footprint). Aluzza controlled the strength and maturity of middle age. The term "alukhra" if it means "last" would be in reference Manat's sequence as the last one in the pagan Arab trinity because they thought of her as controlling of the third and last aspect of death. I think that the way the god lists those idols in chapter 53 is not haphazard. This is the order of how the pagan Arabs in all likelihood regularly viewed and arranged them.
As an interesting side note, the term "wafatahu al-maniyya" while found extensively in Hadiths and the sectarian Sira stories to imply "death" (including especially the death of the prophet), it cannot be found in the great reading to imply death. In the great reading the term used is "mat/mwt". Of course, implied in the term "wafatahu al-maniyya" is the false attribution to Manat of the capacity to control death. The persistent use of this term by the early clergy who authored Hadiths and Sira actually exposes their deep-rooted paganism.
Another interesting side note is that a noticeable common theme in Hadith and Sunnah is the deep-rooted custom of repeating things three times which is never to be found in the great reading. This undoubtedly has its root in the pagan belief in the trinity of Allat, Aluzza and Manat and the need to repeat rituals and words three times to reach each of those idols.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
Thank you brother for your informative post (as usual), I will take some time to digest the content. This issue of proper and common nouns is not as simple as I would have thought.
Thanks progod and Samia for your inputs, and sorry Sabboushi for taking some space in your thread. But certainely, I would translate "muslim" in whatever language I would use.
I will get back to the subject after some research.
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Progod ? you said
I personally belive that we SHOULD translate the messages (which includes the terms) of the Quran into the language of our audience. Otherwise the message gets lost or contorted.
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So you are right it is counter productive to use the word Muslim and it is devisive.Thanks Anwar ? I appreciate your post and agree with what you have said here.
Ayman ? you said
?the word "muslim" is Arabic. So those who take it is a proper name and don't translate it are claiming that the followers of Abraham were called some gibberish word in a future language not even invented until a few thousand years later. Of course this is impossible and the god certainly translated the word into the Arabic "al-muslimeen" from whatever it was in Canaanite.
Thanks Ayman ? this is the point I was trying to make, but you made the point much better than I did ? thank you.
Please see
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/peacefulness.htmExcellent article Ayman ? I acknowledge that I believe I was mistaken earlier in this thread where I suggested that the Arabic word ?Islam? means ?submission? in the Quran; although I believe that ?submission? is a valid translation for the word ?Islam?, I acknowledge that ?peace/peacefulness? seems the better translation within the Quran. Thank-you ? great article.
Also, I found great value in your response to Honor's list of verses ? I currently lack the competence to have responded with such knowledge as you did.
And my thanks to almarh0m for asking
Could you please enlighten me and others regarding " it is He Who has named you Muslims , both before and in this ( Revelation ) ? Does He Allah ? or Ibrahim ?
The responses in this thread have led me to believe that I was mistaken in believing that the ?he? was Abraham; I now believe that the ?He? is referring to God ? thanks to those of you who helped me to see this.
Wakas ? you asked
Who are these "many people in this forum" ?
I believe I was the original ?offender? - have given ample reason to discard 'muslim' as a proper name. Your examples of prophets being described as 'muslims' despite their language being non-arabic, are hard to refute.
I certainly agree!
Lobster ? you said
But what is a Muslim? a person who calls himself a muslim? or someone who is 'peaceful or 'submitter' or whatever?
When the quran says "don't die except as muslim?" is it saying we should take up a title?
I don't think it makes sense that way. It doesn't say "don't die except as A Muslim." IMO, it makes a lot more sense as a description.
If it's a meaningless arabic title, then anyone can call themselves that and fulfill that condition. If it's a description, people will actually have to be "muslim" to do that. And if it is a description, than it must be translated, since people wouldn't know what being muslim is if they don't speak classical arabic.I like your argument very much. And I LOVE lobster! ;D
Honor ? you said
SO there is nothing wrong at all about a person, who believes in one god, and follows the Quran, has faith in it, and submits to God, to call themselves the ARABIC word muslim, knowing full well its meaning, and having the intention to live by that meaning.
I don?t disagree with your statement. I believe my original argument was NOT that it was WRONG ? I was suggesting that it can / does LEAD TO PROBLEMS when using these Arabic words WHEN SPEAKING WITH non-muslims / those that do not speak Arabic. I understand that you acknowledge this as true, but that you disagree with the merits of translating these words as a solution. The point I intended to make is that since non-Arabs/ non-muslims have an INCORRECT understanding / association of what these Arabic words mean that it can be divisive ? AND I was trying to support my position that these words are not nouns.
jonny_k ? you said
You see Arabising the way of life GOD prescribed in the Quran in any way is not right. It would take people away. On the other hand if one attempts to translated the Quran in full then the person will ultimately read the original Quran himself and he/she will understand it much better plus all misconceptions will be removed. If you strat off placing Arabic terms infront of ppl who dont know the Quran, theyll run away.
I agree with what you are saying here. This is one of my concerns because I see this to be true.
ImamQuranOnly ? you said
Peace all,
Let's look at an example
"Hi, My name is Imam, I am a Welder." or should I say "Hi, My name is Leader, I am one who welds things together."What difference does it make? If someone is doesn't know, or has a wrong impression of what a "welder" is, I can surely tell them exactly what I do
The difference that I see is that if I am speaking English to someone who understands English, then I believe it is reasonable for me to expect that they will probably have a basic command over the English language and will in fact know what the English word ?Welder? MEANS. And if they do not, then they will ask as you have suggested.
If I am speaking to someone who does not know English very well, then I will AVOID using many words such as ?Welder? BECAUSE I believe it is reasonable to expect that they may NOT know what such a word means ? and so I will try to use more simple and common words to explain what I mean.
To me, this is VERY different than using an ARABIC word in an English conversation and expecting that a person who is non-arabic-speaking or non-muslim will know what it means; in fact, I OBSERVE EVERY DAY how non-arabic-speakers and non-muslims have a DIFFERENT definition for these Arabic words than the Arabic-speakers and muslims have ? so I already KNOW that by using these Arabic words, these non-arabic-speaking and non-muslim people will associate a DIFFERENT meaning than what I mean to convey. I believe Ayman made this point very well in the conclusion of his article when he said
In the international media we increasingly hear many untranslated Arabic words. Examples include words such as Islam, Muslims, Islamist, Jihad, Alqaida, etc... By taking such words as proper names or meaningless labels, those who spread corruption in the earth have been able to attach whatever meanings they want to those words. Both Arabic and non-Arabic speakers have been deceived by such tactics.
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/peacefulness.htm
Ayman ? you said
proper names when used as part of an idiom are transformed into common nouns. Thus, the meaning that you are conveying with "Don't mess with me, or I'll pull an O.J on you!" is "Don't mess with me, or I'll kill you!". In this case, by being part of the idiom (underlined), OJ has become a common noun. Hence, if you translate this sentence to Arabic, you have to translate OJ using the common meaning it is now conveying (kill).
I think this is an excellent argument ? you would need to translate this noun or the meaning would be lost.
ImamQuranOnly ? you said
You and others have built your position around the point that "muslim" and "Islam" etc. are Arabic words and not english words. Okay, then as one poster pointed out, how come they are included and almost all english dictionaries today?
I suspect it is because most ?muslims? have used this word as a noun (instead of translating it) regardless of the language they were speaking, and as a result, dictionaries needed to have a definition.
Lobster ? you said
So, that shows clearly that as a title, the meaning of islam gets lost. It doesn't matter what you call this particular religion, as long as everyone knows what you are referring to. To me, the meaning matters.
If you ask anyone what "islam" means, they will tell you that it is the "religious faith of Muslims." But in arabic, that's not what the word means, is it?I believe this is an excellent point.
ImamQuranOnly ? you said
I think this is from a dictionary that you got this definition of Islam. I personally don't have a problem with it until they get to "also called Muhammadanism". No "muslims" accept this definition.
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By not saying muslim and saying instead "one who strives to submit their will to God", you are not ending the issue by this simple definition. If anything, just like muslim, it creates many more questions. How are you striving to submit your will? What is your criteria? What is your source? I could go on and on and on. Either way, if you are trying to get someone to understand this way of thinking, Quran only, you will still be explaining long after saying either of the two, label or short definition.I am not clear on the what you mean by ?you are not ending the issue?.
I may be mistaken, but your belief seems to be that those who do NOT follow the ?Quran only? can NOT by definition be ?Muslim?. This is a very different message than I believe and a very different message than I try to convey. I believe the Quran tells us that the other scriptures contain God?s guidance, but that they are not complete / have inaccuracies and contradictions / contains the words of man that are falsely attributed to God ? and that the Quran is the QUALITY CONTROL document for the other scriptures to enable us to differentiate the truth from falsehood in those other documents. And I believe the Quran also tells us that it does not MATTER what we call ourselves (Christians / Jews / etc?) (262), that we are ?? if we ACCEPT the core guidance from God that is CONTAINED in each of those scriptures. I believe the Quran tells us to RESPECT the other scriptures and does NOT tell us that these other scriptures should be thrown out and replaced with ?Quran only?? I believe it only tells us that THOSE WHO BELIEVE will ALSO recognize that the Quran is the guidance of God ? and to accept it.
Saying "Don't die except as peaceful" DOES NOT say that same thing. That translation is deficient and confusing. By that definition, anyone dying in a war is not at peace, and hence going to hell? I could give many examples, but I think one can open the mind of a rational person to see the flaw in this particular definition. So I would much rather say "as a muslim", and then allow the reader/listener to research or ask more questions to get the full meaning and understanding of what the Quran says it truly means to be a "muslim", since it is not an easily translatable word. These words are too encompassing and complex to translate simply. Too much of the real meaning is lost in english. Therefore by keeping the word in arabic, all possible meaning are still encompassed and it gives the speaker the opportunity to continue to convey the meaning without limiting it by a shorter english definition.
I will agree that your argument has merits ? it just seems we choose to do things differently.
Lobster ? you said
Because muslim is just a meaningless title, people can call themselves Muslims and believe whatever the hell they want. A label/title/name is hardly a way to know people's beliefs. God cannot be so superficial as to judge people according to their title, it's all about our inner selves.
But you can argue that people can abuse a title. Well, if people can, then that renders the title useless and even dangerous. It becomes something that should be avoided, because it can mislead people.This aligns with a point I made earlier that if you go to Yahoo?s business directory, you will find 140+ denominations of CHRISTIANITY. Obviously, the word ?Christian? means MANY different things to MANY different people. And so yes, I completely agree with your point here. And I imagine that ALL of those denominations will tell you ?We?re the TRUE Christians ? the others are ?doing it wrong??
Someone ? you said
Thank you brother for your informative post (as usual), I will take some time to digest the content.
I second that!
and sorry Sabboushi for taking some space in your thread. But certainely, I would translate "muslim" in whatever language I would use.
Thank you ? however I am confused by your apology ? I found your posts to be of value to this thread ? and because of your posts, we even received further education from Ayman?s response!?
Thanks to all of you for sharing your time and thinking ? I have greatly benefited.
May peace be with you-
Samir -
Salam,
I don?t disagree with your statement. I believe my original argument was NOT that it was WRONG ? I was suggesting that it can / does LEAD TO PROBLEMS when using these Arabic words WHEN SPEAKING WITH non-muslims / those that do not speak Arabic. I understand that you acknowledge this as true, but that you disagree with the merits of translating these words as a solution. The point I intended to make is that since non-Arabs/ non-muslims have an INCORRECT understanding / association of what these Arabic words mean that it can be divisive ? AND I was trying to support my position that these words are not nouns.
I can't remember ever having any such problems. If anything it has always led the door straight to the Quran (that came in the Arabic language).
Maybe you can give a specific example of how "it can / does LEAD TO PROBLEMS when using these Arabic words WHEN SPEAKING WITH non-muslims / those that do not speak Arabic."
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Peace Samir,
Thank you for your kind comments and for initiating this interesting discussion.
Peace M_Mehdi,
I can't remember ever having any such problems. If anything it has always led the door straight to the Quran (that came in the Arabic language).
Maybe you can give a specific example of how "it can / does LEAD TO PROBLEMS when using these Arabic words WHEN SPEAKING WITH non-muslims / those that do not speak Arabic."The problems arise even with so-called Muslims who SPEAK Arabic and even native Arabic speakers. You don't have to go far and you can see those problems here on the forum or in discussing the Arabic words "islam/muslim" with any Arabic speakers. Some Arabic speakers translate it as "submission" while others translate it as "peacefulness". So even when two native Arabic speakers talk, they may be talking about TWO DIFFERENT things while using the same word and this will cause a major misunderstanding. Translating/explaining it eliminates this problem.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salam Ayman,
The problems arise even with so-called Muslims who SPEAK Arabic and even native Arabic speakers. You don't have to go far and you can see those problems here on the forum or in discussing the Arabic words "islam/muslim" with any Arabic speakers. Some Arabic speakers translate it as "submission" while others translate it as "peacefulness". So even when two native Arabic speakers talk, they may be talking about TWO DIFFERENT things while using the same word and this will cause a major misunderstanding. Translating/explaining it eliminates this problem.
I understand what you are saying. And to add, this is the same with any language. I've even seen the same problems on this very board when speaking and using english only. Therefore, I do not see how changing a word from Arabic to English will prevent or even attempt to eliminate any such misunderstandings.
peace.
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Peace M_Mehdi,
I understand what you are saying. And to add, this is the same with any language. I've even seen the same problems on this very word when speaking and using english only. Therefore, I do not see how changing a word from Arabic to English will prevent or even attempt to eliminate any such misunderstandings.
It will alleviate the problem because at least the two parties will know what the other is talking about and the issue will be brought to the light, discussion will ensue and the best meaning will come out. On the other hand, by leaving it untranslated, the problem persists and is hidden under the rug of the proper name.
The fact is that the only words that are not translated are proper names, which are mere labels that have no bearing on the truth. So unless you take it as a mere label then you should translate it, otherwise you would be making up linguistic rules out of the blue. If you take it as a proper name then you are free to do so (most people in the world do) but you have to admit that it is a personal desire that is not based on the great reading where the word is certainly used as a common noun.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salam,
Quote from SAbboushi on Today at 052329 PM
Honor ? you said
I don?t disagree with your statement. I believe my original argument was NOT that it was WRONG ? I was suggesting that it can / does LEAD TO PROBLEMS when using these Arabic words WHEN SPEAKING WITH non-muslims / those that do not speak Arabic. I understand that you acknowledge this as true, but that you disagree with the merits of translating these words as a solution. The point I intended to make is that since non-Arabs/ non-muslims have an INCORRECT understanding / association of what these Arabic words mean that it can be divisive ? AND I was trying to support my position that these words are not nouns.I can't remember ever having any such problems. If anything it has always led the door straight to the Quran (that came in the Arabic language).
Maybe you can give a specific example of how "it can / does LEAD TO PROBLEMS when using these Arabic words WHEN SPEAKING WITH non-muslims / those that do not speak Arabic."
Salam,
I can't remember ever having any such problems. If anything it has always led the door straight to the Quran (that came in the Arabic language).
Maybe you can give a specific example of how "it can / does LEAD TO PROBLEMS when using these Arabic words WHEN SPEAKING WITH non-muslims / those that do not speak Arabic."
Salam M_Mehdi~
This quote above is not from me,but from sAbboushi. Please make sure you and all understand this. I did not make this quote. This is sAbboushis quote to me in response to a comment I made to him, these are his words and not mine.
Honor
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Salam,
With all due respect, your stated problem and solution are one and the same.
The problems arise [even with so-called Muslims who SPEAK Arabic and even native Arabic speakers.
If "problems" arise "even" with those who "speak arabic" and "even native arabic speakers" then what makes you think that the same so called "problems" would not arise with "even" those who "speak english" and "even" with "native english speakers"?
I've even seen the same problems on this very board when speaking and using english only. Therefore, I do not see how changing a word from Arabic to English will prevent or even attempt to eliminate any such misunderstandings
Peace M_Mehdi,
It will alleviate the problem because at least the two parties will know what the other is talking about...
Apparently not.
peace.
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As-Salaamu Alaikum all on this thread,
I haven't followed this thread for quite some time and just got a chance to read the last page. To sum up my position of all the excellent points on here, I simply quote M-Mehdi's last response below. I understand other's intent and reasons, but the fact of the matter is that when you translate it, it will only create "your" understanding of the term that can be different from person to person. The issue is still not solved by translating "muslim" to "one who submits" or "one who is at peace or peaceful", or whatever. Last I also checked, a proper noun is a NAME, not a description. I am not an english major or grammarian, so don't hold me to it if I am wrong. But "muslim" is a descriptive title, not a name.
Either way, I don't think there is any compulsion for anyone. If you like to translate it, cool. If I don't like to translate it, why does it bother you how I describe myself to other people? Why try to convince me that I am wrong to do such or that your way is better? Did Allah address this in Al Quran? Even though you (being whomever) and I agree that we both follow the Quran only, that doesn't mean that we beleive the same things about "Islam" and "muslim".
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Salam,
With all due respect, your stated problem and solution are one and the same.
If "problems" arise "even" with those who "speak arabic" and "even native arabic speakers" then what makes you think that the same so called "problems" would not arise with "even" those who "speak english" and "even" with "native english speakers"?
Apparently not.
peace.
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wa alaykum imamQuranonly
Why try to convince me that I am wrong to do such or that your way is better? Did Allah address this in Al Quran? Even though you (being whomever) and I agree that we both follow the Quran only, that doesn't mean that we beleive the same things about "Islam" and "muslim".
11118 And had your Lord wished, He could have made all the people one nation, but they still would continue to disagree.
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Fahad posted a link to an article named "Can a non-muslim be a muslim?" (? Reply #59 on April 10, 2007, 083027 AM ?)
I am no longer able to access the article using that link, and so I am posting the article here
Can a non-Muslim be a muslim?
Published February 26th, 2007 Al Kitab , Fahad , Muslims , Traditionalism , Quran , culture , Islam 0 Comments
The word ?muslim? is nowadays used as a label. It has become a cultural thing (like Islamic names, Islamic art, Islamic architecture etc). If you are born in a family labeled ?Muslim?, you automatically become one. The word is now used for the so-called followers of Al-Quran, or those who hold the book ?sacred?.But that?s not how Al-Quran has used the word ?muslim?. On the contrary, according to Al-Quran, a muslim is the one who submits to the law of God, even without Al-Quran. Yes, you can be a muslim even before coming across and believing in Al-Quran, if you had already submitted to God?s law.
Al-Quran calls such muslimeen ?those who are given al-kitaab/kitaabillah by God?
28/52 Those to whom We gave al-kitaab from before this, they will believe in it.
28/53 And when it is recited to them, they say ?We believe in it. Surely it is the truth from our Lord. Indeed, we were already muslimeen/submitters from before it.??
Fahad -
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I agree you should avoid using the word muslim for yourself.
Is this the character of a muslim?
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Is this the character of a muslim?
It was tarikh's own wish.I just endorsed .He said
Peace, i feel the same as you. I call myself a quranic monotheist. Simple. God understands why we would want to avoid using the word muslim in order not to be associated with the hypos