Using the word "muslim" in an english conversation

[Bigmo]

Dear Sabboushi
You have put the following verse
383
(383) Do they now seek a religion other than prescribed by Allah even though all that is in the heavens and the earth is in submission to Him *71 - willing or unwillingly - and to Him all shall return?

Before discussing its use of word let me clear a few points about any language.
In any language (I am sure about English and Arabic) there are certain fundamental things which are essential to understand for proper comprehension of that language. One of them is "DEFINITE ARTICLE " In English it is "THE" while in Arabic it is "AL- "
I give the example in English first which I have already given in one of my posts here. I need to repeat them here
Look at the following pairs of sentences.These have absolutely different in meaning by the use of article "THE"
1He went to school .
He went to the school

He went to sea.
He went to the sea.

Another example
In UK (for that matter in English)

• conservative = moderate ,cautious
  But when you capitalize it with a "THE " preceding it develops a different meaning
  The Conservatives = persons belonging to the Conservative Party in UK

In same way

• English = Language
• The English = The people of England

See how the change in the definite article changes the connotation of meanings.

Same is the case with Arabic.Here the definite Article used is " Al?" For example

• Kitaab = any book (indefinite noun )
• Al ? kitaab = The Book = it is a specific Book which is revealed .
  In no way you can take its meaning as book of medicine or physics or chemistry which is on your book shelf.
  Another example
• Quraan = recitation
• Al ? Quran = That particular book which we refer it as "Quran Majeed"

Exactly in the same way
Aslama = To submit
Islam = submission = this can be applied to anyone who submits willingly/unwillingly no matter who he/she /it is .It will practically mean 'sumission to Law of nature"

• may be human beings (whether momineen or kaafir)
• may be animals
• many be inanimate object
  This is the type of 'islam " which is described in this Aya

But word which Quran has used is not "islam" but "Al- islam" .It is a specific type of 'islam" which is only and only for human beings.This word has been used in the Holy Quran 6 times

Look at these verses
319
(319) The true religion with Allah is Islam. *16
385
(385) And whoever seeks a way other than this way a submission (Islam), will find that it will not be accepted from him and in the Life to come he will be among the losers
53
This day I have perfected for you your religion, and have bestowed upon you My bounty in full measure, and have been pleased to assign for you Islam as your religion.

(6125) Thus, (it is a fact that) whomsoever Allah wills to guide, He opens his breast for Islam; *
3922
(3922) Now, can the person whose breast Allah has opened for Islam *40 and he is walking in the light shown by his Lord *
617
(617) Now, who could be more wicked than he who forges falsehoods against Allah *10 even though he is being invited towards Islam (submission to Allah)? *11 Allah does not guide such wrongdoers

FROM THESE VERSES WE CAN DEDUCT THE CONCLUSION THAT

? AL ? ISLAM IS THE A COMPLETE CODE OF LIFE (AL- DEEN )
? 319
? (319) The true religion with Allah is Islam. *16

? WHOSOEVER DOES NOT ACCEPTS OTHER THAN AL-ISLAM ' WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED ON THE DOOMSDAY

? 385
? (385) And whoever seeks a way other than this way a submission (Islam), will find that it will not be accepted from him and in the Life to come he will be among the losers

? AL-ISLAM WAS NOT REVEALED AT ONCE RATHER GRADUALLY AND COMPLETED WHEN THIS VERSE WAS REVEALED ;

? 53
? This day I have perfected for you your religion, and have bestowed upon you My bounty in full measure, and have been pleased to assign for you Islam as your religion.

? AL ? ISLAM IS RELATED WITH GUIDANCE
?
? (6125) Thus, (it is a fact that) whomsoever Allah wills to guide, He opens his breast for Islam; *

? AL ? ISLAM IS JUST LIKE A LIGHT FROM RABB
? 3922
? (3922) Now, can the person whose breast Allah has opened for Islam *40 and he is walking in the light shown by his Lord *

? AL ? ISLAM NEEDS TO BE INVITED
? 617
? (617) Now, who could be more wicked than he who forges falsehoods against Allah *10 even though he is being invited towards Islam (submission to Allah)? *11 Allah does not guide such wrongdoers.

Now again look at your verse and see the word 'aslama' used in general sense (Law of nature) while word "Al ? islam" is a particular one.

Islam is the noun. Aslama is the verb. Whats your point?

The word muslimoon is also used.

O you who believe, observe your duty to God with right observance, and die not except in a state of submission (to Him). And hold fast, all of you together, to the rope of God, and do not separate, and remember God's favor unto you how you were enemies and He put love between your hearts so that you became as brothers by His grace and how you were upon the brink of a fire and He saved you from it. Thus God makes clear His revelations unto you so that you may be guided" (3102-103).

Here Muslimoon is used. Whats the point?

[Allen]

Islam is the noun. Aslama is the verb. Whats your point?

The word muslimoon is also used.

O you who believe, observe your duty to God with right observance, and die not except in a state of submission (to Him). And hold fast, all of you together, to the rope of God, and do not separate, and remember God's favor unto you how you were enemies and He put love between your hearts so that you became as brothers by His grace and how you were upon the brink of a fire and He saved you from it. Thus God makes clear His revelations unto you so that you may be guided" (3102-103).

Here Muslimoon is used. Whats the point?

Dear Bigmo
Short paradigm of 'aslama goes like this"
,, ,

=
I hope it helps.

[Jafar]

So when people ask me what my religion is (in an english conversation), I do not say that I am "muslim". That makes about as much sense to me as saying "Allah" instead of "God" in an english conversation. I tell people that I am one who tries hard to submit my will to God.

Any thoughts on this?

Salam Sabboushi,

My own interpretation; today's meanings of "religion" is actualy "sect".
when people ask me "what my religion is" I perceived it to "To which sect do you belong to"
Thus my answer became NONE, I don't belong to any sect or religion.
Furthermore they usually ask another question Why?
My answer Because I've had enough of Sectarianism..

Peace

[ayani]

when asked what religion i am, i say "muslim".

if asked to elaborate or defend islam, i explain that i'm a universalist muslim, and i follow only the Quran. this usually opens up an interesting discussion about hadith, God, religion, universalism, and truth.

if i have a Quran with me, and they have some time, i'll pore over it with them to explain my interpretation, and we usually find that we really don't have a lot to argue about.

[Allen]

when asked what religion i am, i say "muslim".

if asked to elaborate or defend islam, i explain that i'm a universalist muslim, and i follow only the Quran. this usually opens up an interesting discussion about hadith, God, religion, universalism, and truth.

if i have a Quran with me, and they have some time, i'll pore over it with them to explain my interpretation, and we usually find that we really don't have a lot to argue about.

Dear Ayani
There is a lot of difference bewteen Quran aloners and Traditionalist;

T = Traditionalist
Q= Quran aloner

T = prophet was truthful in every aspect
Q= Prophet was partially truthful (Quran =yes ,rest = no)

T= Qibla is Kaaba
Q = Qibla is abstract (no one knows)

T= 5 times prayers
Q = Not sure (some = two ,some = three ,some (pervaize) = five)

T= Ritual which is duty for every one who can afford
Q = Just a congregation

T= Quran preserved
Q= Some- preserved, some- not (RK followers)

T= No Prophet after the Holy prophet PBUH
Q =Some ,no prophet' some prophets can still come as 'rasool and RK is one of them.

These are such huge differences of faith both cannot be put in same category.

[Jack]

Did you try to include every single logical fallacy within the same post?

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_logical_fallacies

[Allen]

Did you try to include every single logical fallacy within the same post?

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_logical_fallacies

Please point out what is false in it ? I will be thankful.

[ayani]

Allen yes, but still...

i'm reminded of those Protestant Christians who are proud of their adherence to only the Bible, and reject or ridicule, say, Catholics as non-Christian or misguided.

there are many differences, but we are still all Muslims. i identify as such, and if asked to elaborate or justify my faith, i do. i worship with Baptists, Quakers, Catholics, Sunni Muslims, and Baha'is. what matters to me is the 'connection', and unity in fellowship, not titles or sects.

[Jack]

T = prophet was truthful in every aspect
Q= Prophet was partially truthful (Quran =yes ,rest = no)

Am I to take this seriously?

That's fallacious because unless you PERSONALLY knew the prophet, you can't draw that conclusion. If you think the prophet was truthful from the day he was born 'till the day he died, please visit a mental institution. I am not trying to mock you, but this is out of sheer concern. The highlighted is also a common practice fallacy as well as appeal to belief.

Biased sample (highlighted in red).

T= Qibla is Kaaba
Q = Qibla is abstract (no one knows)

Hasty generalization. Also, Biased sample.

T= 5 times prayers
Q = Not sure (some = two ,some = three ,some (pervaize) = five)

Biased sample

T= Ritual which is duty for every one who can afford
Q = Just a congregation

Appeal to authority, appeal to belief, appeal to tradition.

Highlighted in red is Biased sample.

I can do this all day, but I will stop.

Peace.

[Allen]

Am I to take this seriously?

That's fallacious because unless you PERSONALLY knew the prophet, you can't draw that conclusion. If you think the prophet was truthful from the day he was born 'till the day he died, please visit a mental institution. I am not trying to mock you, but this is out of sheer concern. The highlighted is also a common practice fallacy as well as appeal to belief.

Biased sample (highlighted in red).

Hasty generalization. Also, Biased sample.

Biased sample

Appeal to authority, appeal to belief, appeal to tradition.

Highlighted in red is Biased sample.

I can do this all day, but I will stop.

Peace.

Biased samples without any proof as usual.After what can be expected from the followers of

What do these numbers tell ??

Rashid = =
200+1+300+4= 505 = 5+0+5=10=1+0= 1
Shaitaan =
300+10+9+1+50=370=3+7+0=10=1+0=1

Theory of 19
= 1+9 = 10=1+0 = 1
The earth was purified from him in 1990
=1+9+9+0 = 19 =1+9 =10 =1+0=1

interesting !!!!!

[Jack]

giveup

I gave you a fair chance LEOXYZ, Now I know you are not here to discuss ANYTHING. All you are interested in is polluting this forum. Peace be upon you, I will not discuss anything with you because you've shown an inability to be rational or logical in any way.

[Wakas]

T = prophet was truthful in every aspect
Q= Prophet was partially truthful (Quran =yes ,rest = no)

There is a difference between being imperfect and being untruthful.

Of course, I wouldn't expect someone who prefers generalisations and inaccurate language to understand such a difference.

It seems your 2nd chance will soon be up.

[jonny_k]

Peace "allen", "ayaani" and all,
I dont call myself "muslim" when asked by one who doesnt speak Arabic and is unaware of the Quranic context of the term. I call myself a "submitter to GOD". And yes theres a huge difference between tradiitonal hislamics and those who follow Quran Alone. Those two are not reconciliable by any means. I dont want to be with them by any means. IMO they are the greatest hypocrites, taqiyyah practicing fascists alive on the planet today. GOD Bless!

[ayani]

Peace "allen", "ayaani" and all,
I dont call myself "muslim" when asked by one who doesnt speak Arabic and is unaware of the Quranic context of the term. I call myself a "submitter to GOD". And yes theres a huge difference between tradiitonal hislamics and those who follow Quran Alone. Those two are not reconciliable by any means. I dont want to be with them by any means. IMO they are the greatest hypocrites, taqiyyah practicing fascists alive on the planet today. GOD Bless!

jonny 409-12 and 607

even if we have issues with how others practice faith, we should speak of and to others in a fair and respectful way, and leave judgment up to Allah, who knows best, and who has the power to reform people's hearts if He wishes.

i agree that there is a lot within traditional islam these days that could change, though. may Allah grant us clarity, patience, and understanding, and refer us to His Reminder.

[SAbboushi]

7 years later, and I am still examining this )

When I initiated this thread, I lacked the (little bit of) knowledge of Arabic and grammar I needed to post the following question

I'm comparing two verses 272 and 1689. Translations vary, but I'm using corpus.quran.com to do a word-by-word analysis (Thanks Kais Dukes... wish you had time to finish the project).

Both verses are talking about (as I understand it) to whom the Quran is a guidance and glad tidings "believers" (2723) and "Muslims" (168924).

272 http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=27
1689 http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=16&verse=89

I didn't count, but browsing through these dozens of translations http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/16/89/default.htm, it looks like about as many people translated the word as didn't (e.g. "surrendered themselves to God" vs. "Muslims&quot

My question involves parts of speech.

For you knowledgeable classical Arabic grammarians, I'm hoping someone can explain exactly what the difference is between these two words whereby one has been labeled a noun ("believers&quot and the other a proper noun ("Muslims&quot as seen in the links.

Both words have been categorized (in the links) as "genitive masculine plural (form IV) active participle" / " ".

In summary Is there anything in the derived word "" that indicates that it is a proper noun instead of a noun, or is this just an opinion (much like the opinion of those who choose not to translate the word)? Or another way to ask the question, how does one recognize whether an Arabic word is a proper noun?

My suspicion is that this is not a question that is answered by the rules of grammar / morphology / lexical word-formation, but of societal convention (i.e. how are people choosing to use the word)... and I believe such conventions can change over time.

[Armanaziz]

My suspicion is that this is not a question that is answered by the rules of grammar / morphology / lexical word-formation, but of societal convention (i.e. how are people choosing to use the word)... and I believe such conventions can change over time.

Salam Sister.

I agree with your statement above.

I would like to offer some thoughts on the usage of the term muslim or islam. Per my understanding of Qur'an, islam is the name of our DEEN and deen does not mean religion. My preferred translation of deen is "resolution", but alternative translations like - "life-view" or "way of life" can be used.

On the other hand our religion (millat) is supposed to be Millat-i-Ibrahim (i.e. Abrahamic Religion). Judaism, Christianity, Shiaism, Sunnism, Sufism, Shikhism, Bahaism, Submission (RK) and in some cases Quranism (where the proponent thinks Quranism is the only acceptable path) are all various sects within the Millat-i-Ibrahim.

Per my understanding, although sectarianism is strongly discouraged in Qur'an, it is theoretically possible for any of the followers of sects under millat-i-Abraham to be a muslim, if they are clear and uncompromising about their deen (resolution) they believe in God, believe in Last Day and submit to God by striving to lead a righteous life. I believe Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Confucianism, Taoism etc. are religions outside Millat-i-Ibrahim, but their followers, too, can be muslims if they meet the underlined criteria above. The necessary ingredients for deen of Islam is built into human soul - we do not necessarily have to believe a particular messenger or follow a particular book to believe in God and to submit to Him by upholding our conscience and intellect. But that being said it is extremely difficult to be firm on resolution (deen) while being negligent about religion (millat) - and that's why we have been mandated to follow Millat-i-Ibrahim in Qur'an.

So for my identity - I prefer to say, my resolution (deen) is submission (islam) and my religion (millat) is Millat-i-Ibrahim.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace,

In ways the title Muslim is confusing and just an attribute to a sect called Islam. God does not play a game of labels but those who have faith in God and do good they are guided. That one has faith is enough an argument and then his actions have to speak for that statement.

God bless you

[shohorabA]

7 years later, and I am still examining this )

When I initiated this thread, I lacked the (little bit of) knowledge of Arabic and grammar I needed to post the following question

I'm comparing two verses 272 and 1689. Translations vary, but I'm using corpus.quran.com to do a word-by-word analysis (Thanks Kais Dukes... wish you had time to finish the project).

Both verses are talking about (as I understand it) to whom the Quran is a guidance and glad tidings "believers" (2723) and "Muslims" (168924).

272 http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=27
1689 http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=16&verse=89

I didn't count, but browsing through these dozens of translations http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/16/89/default.htm, it looks like about as many people translated the word as didn't (e.g. "surrendered themselves to God" vs. "Muslims&quot

My question involves parts of speech.

For you knowledgeable classical Arabic grammarians, I'm hoping someone can explain exactly what the difference is between these two words whereby one has been labeled a noun ("believers&quot and the other a proper noun ("Muslims&quot as seen in the links.

Both words have been categorized (in the links) as "genitive masculine plural (form IV) active participle" / " ".

In summary Is there anything in the derived word "" that indicates that it is a proper noun instead of a noun, or is this just an opinion (much like the opinion of those who choose not to translate the word)? Or another way to ask the question, how does one recognize whether an Arabic word is a proper noun?

My suspicion is that this is not a question that is answered by the rules of grammar / morphology / lexical word-formation, but of societal convention (i.e. how are people choosing to use the word)... and I believe such conventions can change over time.

Maybe its my old age but I truly understand your statements here.

Brother, you may not get the answer that you expect.
Do you know how Christianity was born? Christians never called themselves Christians. It was others who called them Christians.
Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. ? Acts 1125-26

The word Christian repeats in Acts ? 2628 and 1 Peter 416. As you can see clearly, the word Christian is used by a third party to refer to followers of Christ. The more appropriate and original word is ?Nazarene? derived from the city Nazareth, or is it? Jesus is called the Nazarene (nazwraiou) in the bible as follows.

The even more appropriate name would be Muslim.
Nasara in Hebrew means "One who remains". One who stays or has submitted. Do you understand brother. Nasara. This is the Arabic word as well that refers to Christians in the Quran. Nasara in Arabic also is currently believed to mean Christian but how about the original meaning. It means one who follows, which is also akin to one who has submitted. Do you see? You have to have submitted yourself to follow someone or to remain with someone. Its the same as Islam or Muslim. The greek word for remain is emeinen and in various ways Jesus calls his disciples and followers those who remained. One word for this is Muslim. It is unfortunate that the NT has been written or converted into Greek though Jesus spoke Aramaic. If it stayed in the original text the word Nasara, Mushlam etc will be used heavily rather than a Greek using the word Nasara as if it is a proper name. Do you understand what I am saying.

Another. This is directly to a Muslim but you can take what you may.

The belief that Islam, Christianity and Judaism etc are different religions etc is a questionable theology. It is cited that Abraham called people Muslims.

?And strive in the cause of God its truly deserved striving. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the system, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you ?those who have submitted? (Muslimeen) from before and in this. So let the messenger be witness over you and you be witness over the people. So hold the contact prayer and contribute towards purification and hold tight to God, He is your patron. What an excellent Patron, and what an excellent Supporter.? - Qur?an
2278

See the following verses.

2111 And they said ?None shall enter the Paradise except those who are Jewish or "Nasara";? this is what they wish! Say ?Bring forth your proof if you are truthful.?

2112 No; whoever submits (Aslamu) himself to God, while doing good, he will have his recompense with his Lord. There will be no fear over them, nor will they grieve. (One who Aslamu is a Muslim)

2113 And the Jews say ?The "Nasara" have no basis,? and the "Nasara" say ?The Jews have no basis,? while they are both reciting the Book! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.

Thus it is evident that Christians (Nasara) and Jews also can submit (One who submits is a Muslim) to God will be saved and God will judge between them. It is not for us to judge. Which indicates that one who submits or Aslamu is a Muslim and even one who calls himself Nasara also can be a Muslim.

2135 And they said ?Be Jewish or Nasara so that you may be guided!? Say ?No, rather the creed of Abraham, monotheism; for he was not of the polytheists.?

2136 Say ?We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make a distinction between any of them and to Him we submit.?

We are required to tell those call themselves Jewish or Nazarenes that Millat Ibrahim or the creed or religion of Abraham will save us all. See, there was only one prophet called Muhammed born in Arabia but Muslims are divided into various sects. Shia, Sunni, Wahabbi etc. But what ever the division you call yourselves of, you are a segment of Islam. Same way if we believe that Islam or submission was the only system authorised by God, whatever name we call ourselves is just a concocted name, the origin is Islam. Thus, Christianity is a segment of Islam.

But Christians and Jews etc are clearly differentiated from the Mumeens(Or mostly translated as Mumeens).

367 Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Nasara, but he was a monotheist who submitted; he was not of the polytheists.
368 The most legitimate people to Abraham are those who followed him; and this prophet, and those who believed (Amanu); and God is the supporter of the believers.

As you can see, if Abraham himself was a Muslim and he called his followers Muslim as said in the Quran, Amanu or believers are differentiated from them and called one of the legitimate people. There is a clear difference between a Muslim and an Amanu or one who has submitted and a believer. This is where the real difference between Christian, Jews and Mumeens is. Muslim is more generic.

Thus, when the Quran says that Islam is the only religion or system, you actually dont have to be one who in current context calls himself a Muslim.

385 And whoever follows other than submission (Islam) as a system, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.

See if Ahlil Kithab are clearly a different entity from Muslims, how can they be told that it will not be accepted from him while in so many other places the Quran says that people of the book can attain salvation.

Muslim and Mumeens are clearly differentiated.

[SAbboushi]

Firedragon - thanks for taking the time to post.

My impression is that you are supporting the belief that the word Muslim is not really a proper noun... although I wasn't certain because you said e.g.

Brother, you may not get the answer that you expect.

A few comments though on what you've said

It is cited that Abraham called people Muslims.

?And strive in the cause of God its truly deserved striving. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the system, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you ?those who have submitted? (Muslimeen) from before and in this. So let the messenger be witness over you and you be witness over the people. So hold the contact prayer and contribute towards purification and hold tight to God, He is your patron. What an excellent Patron, and what an excellent Supporter.? - Qur?an
2278

Earlier in this thread, I had suggested (like you) that Abraham had called people muslims. However, others pointed out it was God and not Abraham that called people Muslims.

367 Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Nasara, but he was a monotheist who submitted; he was not of the polytheists.
368 The most legitimate people to Abraham are those who followed him; and this prophet, and those who believed (Amanu); and God is the supporter of the believers.

As you can see, if Abraham himself was a Muslim and he called his followers Muslim as said in the Quran, Amanu or believers are differentiated from them and called one of the legitimate people. There is a clear difference between a Muslim and an Amanu or one who has submitted and a believer. This is where the real difference between Christian, Jews and Mumeens is. Muslim is more generic.

Regarding 368, you said "There is a clear difference between a Muslim and an Amanu".

The following translation by Muhammad Asad seems to have a different meaning (i.e. it doesn't seem to support such a clear difference as you suggest)

368 Behold, the people who have the best claim to Abraham are surely those who follow him - as does this Prophet and all
who believe - and God is near unto the believers.

[wrkmmn]

Peace

SLaM = submission
MuSLiM =submitted one
MuSLiMYN = submitted ones

AMaNA = believe
MUMiN =believer
MUMiNYN =believers

4914The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not believed; but say , 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts....
Submitted one (muslim) is the name for all that are obeying the law/way of submission (SLM). Only GOD knows who from among us muslims are believes. And God says in the Quran that the majority are hypocrites.

When somebody ask about your religion/way, just answer that it is SUBMISSION and that you are a SUBMITTEDONE, and if they do not understand then say Islam and I am a Muslim (these are Englishised Arabic words).

For those who say I am sunny muslim, or shia muslim, or wahaby muslim, or suffi muslim, or even american muslim, or british muslim, or quranist muslim, etcc. YOU CAN'T BE TWO THING AT THE SAME TIME, either you are muslim or the other word. A MUSLIM IS JUST A MUSLIM, AND when he is asked where he is from, he answers I am a muslim living in (name your country). If you put a name before the word muslim, it means that you are pleasing that ideology first and then after serving that one you serve the muslim ideology. EXAMPLE you cannot be a British Muslim, because it means that first you are going to please the queen first, and then after her you will please God.

JESUS SAID ?No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other.
Tell to those who add names either you are XXX or muslim.

may God increase our knowledge and give us some wisdom.