ALERGY to the Words: Quran , Muslim etc !
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Salaamun alaykum
It seems to me , some members of this Forum are alergic To many Islamic Terms such as Quran , Muslim and other words in Arabic , they gave out Impression of inferiority Complex of being Muslims . One would have to be a Real Dill not to know what Quran or Koran is......where-ever you are on this Earth of Allah . So why bother changing Quran into " the Great Reading ? .
Another much abused word is 'muslim' , it has now become "submitter " or 'peaceful One' . Are these People Ashamed to call themselves Muslims ? . Just when the whole World is getting to know more about Islam and terminologies used therein , these People came along with their Brilliant Ideas of Changing just about every Arabic word they can lay their Paws on . It looks like an attempt to De-Arabize Islam to please their much admired real masters . Just because they feel Inferior to The kafeer , they think we all have to change ourselves to please their Superior Kafeer Masters ? Come on , get over your Inferiority Complex and Be Proud to Call Yourselves Muslims. Most of the Words these people changed are well understood by the non Muslims , so why bother ? Unless a hidden agenda is masked ?
wassalamu ala manittaba'al hudaa
almarh0m
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One explanation might be a language diffirence, because I have no clue what "wassalamu ala manittaba'al hudaa" means.
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looks like an attempt to De-Arabize Islam to please their much admired real masters
I am very happy to be a part of that attempt. Arabs don't own the Quran - Great reading. Seeing the word shuffle in the Quran that has been done by arab shcoolars it should be everybodies goal to try and translate the Quran to the best possible way.
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peace almarh0m, all,
Please enlighten us about the following from 'al quran'
Out of the 157 occurrenes of the root of the words "islam" & "muslim" (Siin-Lam-Miim), how many show clear usage of these terms as titles/names?
Out of the 89 occurrenes of the root of the word "quran" (Qaf-Ra-Alif), how many show clear usage of this term as a titles/name?
If these terms should be primarily thought of as titles/names, this should be easy to prove. All occurrences are listed in PRL for you
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmLet us know how many you find.
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Salaam Wakas
peace almarh0m, all,
Please enlighten us about the following from 'al quran'
Out of the 157 occurrenes of the root of the words "islam" & "muslim" (Siin-Lam-Miim), how many show clear usage of these terms as titles/names?
Out of the 89 occurrenes of the root of the word "quran" (Qaf-Ra-Alif), how many show clear usage of this term as a titles/name?
If these terms should be primarily thought of as titles/names, this should be easy to prove. All occurrences are listed in PRL for you
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmLet us know how many you find.
Did I say We shouldn't translate Quran into The Great Reading ? I said in my post above " why changed the Quran into The Great Reading " , so please note . As an intelligent person , you do not have to translate any Book to know that , Books are for Reading in whatever language . There are many Great Reading Books , but they are not all called Quran in Arabic , or are they ? Bro wakas , you are one of the several people in the Forum that I Respect and whose Contributions I valued , you would know that Words usage is a Powerful Weapon , and a careful use of Certain Words could mean a Life and Death ( example later ) .
How many times does the Author of The Quran say haza Quran or this Quran ? How hard is it to look in the Quran Concordance how many times a Word occurs? Surely this is an elementary school Task . I am all for Translating the Whole Quran into an Easily Understood Language , not just English , but Do we have to change all the Key terms such as Quran , Muslim , Salam ect ? Imagine if The Hindus start calling their Vedas, Baghavat Gitas , mahabharat , and Ramayana into their respective meanings , do you think the younger generation of Hindus will still recognize the religion and culture of their Forebears ? The same could be said for The Jewish Scriptures , The Christian's Bible ( Gospel ) Godspell , should people start calling these Books by their Respective meanings instead of By the name they are widely Known ???
I don't know the meaning (s ) of your name Wakas , but can I call you the meaning of your name instead of your Real Given Name ? Or should I start caling Layth Lion because I know that is the meaning of his name ? and how many times does the Word Allah occurs in The Quran ? Hundreds of times , but whether you use the Word Allah or God , people still Understand but not so with The Quran and Muslim . Let me give you an example brother , suppose I write in a Newspaper ( Indonesia/ India or Pakistan ) that Some People in some suburbs in the Capital are using Pages from The Great Reading to Wipe their backsides , do you think it will have an effect as Bad if I wrote Some people in some Suburbs in the capital used The Pages of The Quran to wipe their arses ? . One does not have to have a PhD in anything to predict that a certain Murderous Riots will Erupt everywhere in the Country should I choose to use the latter . So can you see difference between Using the Actual word Quran and its Effect on People instead of The very Ordinary Great reading ? .
I repeat , I support all effort to Translate the Quran to get to Its True meanings as intended By Allah The God , however , the Key terms should be left alone as generally speaking people perfectly understand what they are .
And I am not condemning those who tries to corrupt Deen al Islam from within ( after all , it is their Jobs ) , Only those who show an even Greater willingness to accept this Corruption .Peace be upon you
almarh0m
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peace Almarh0m,
I think the difference in our opinion lies in our different views of the quran and the words "islam" and "muslim."How many times does the Author of The Quran say haza Quran or this Quran ? How hard is it to look in the Quran Concordance how many times a Word occurs? Surely this is an elementary school Task . I am all for Translating the Whole Quran into an Easily Understood Language , not just English , but Do we have to change all the Key terms such as Quran , Muslim , Salam ect ? Imagine if The Hindus start calling their Vedas, Baghavat Gitas , mahabharat , and Ramayana into their respective meanings , do you think the younger generation of Hindus will still recognize the religion and culture of their Forebears ? The same could be said for The Jewish Scriptures , The Christian's Bible ( Gospel ) Godspell , should people start calling these Books by their Respective meanings instead of By the name they are widely Known
For example here, you believe that Islam is a title of a religion. To you, it doesn't matter what it means. It's a title that your religion, the belief system you follow, can be recognized by.
I don't see it that way. To me, "islam" is an arabic word for "peacefulness." No different than, say, "generosity." It's not a title of anything. Peacefulness is not a belief system, it is a state of mind we must try to achieve. That's all.
peaceful people don't need a nationalistic identity, or even group together.I don't know the meaning (s ) of your name Wakas , but can I call you the meaning of your name instead of your Real Given Name ? Or should I start caling Layth Lion because I know that is the meaning of his name ?
Here, it's clear that you view Quran and Islam as meaningless titles. You're entitled to that view. I don't believe that.
Wakas is a meaningless name. It doesn't reflect his personality or his species. It may, but that would be a coincidence. Same thing with Layth. I'm pretty sure a lion is not running the forum.
"islam" and "muslim" and "mumin" and "kafir" are not meaningless labels. They are adjectives.
I believe that one of the things wrong with Sectarian muslims today is that they don't know, or care, what the word islam and muslim etc actually mean. To them, if you join this club called Islam, and follow its rules, you go to heaven.
But the quran also says that the muslim (or mumin?) are guaranteed victory. They wonder why they don't ever win. The reason is that they aren't true believers.
It's like if I say smart people will be able to solve any problem.
Now you start calling yourself Smart. It doesn't mean that you will be able to solve problems.I repeat , I support all effort to Translate the Quran to get to Its True meanings as intended By Allah The God , however , the Key terms should be left alone as generally speaking people perfectly understand what they are .
I don't think they are perfectly understood today. You just have to look at the level of ignorance in the countries you mentioned to know that. The world would be a better place if people understood what islam and muslim and salat meant. But they don't.
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Peace almarh0m,
It seems to me , some members of this Forum are alergic To many Islamic Terms such as Quran , Muslim and other words in Arabic , they gave out Impression of inferiority Complex of being Muslims .
It seems to me that people are very quick to judge anyone straying from the pack.
Are these People Ashamed to call themselves Muslims ? .
No, these peope have explained, over and over, why selective translation is
(A) Pointless
(B) Divisive
(C) Warned against via scripturePlease post some valid evidence that anyone who agrees to translate "muslim" has done so out of shame, else, stand corrected.
It looks like an attempt to De-Arabize Islam to please their much admired real masters .
De-Arabize is a good thing. Islam is not an Arabic religion, unless you think Ibrahim was an Arab.
Real masters? Do you mean, real master? God? Isn't that what this is all about?
You are, like others, assuming intention rather than seeking understanding.Peace,
Tay -
Salam,
It seems to me that people are very quick to judge anyone straying from the pack.
What's there to judge Tay? You yourself admit that you don't follow any religion nor do you have any religous routine. So what pack?
Salam almarh0m,
I believe you hit on the nail here. It's strange that there are people who want to "De-Arabize" the Arabic Quran. After all God sent his message in the Arabic tongue and ever since, there have been people who have a problem with that.
What's happening here is absolutely nothing new. We have seen this within the Christian faith. There are many sects and different versions of the bible. Now you see happening here. We see the "free-minds" translation , a "re-formist" translation.. etc.. If you were to exchange the word "translation" with "version" it would make much better sense. Just like the king james version of the Bible. All under the guise of "de-Arabizing".
It looks like an attempt to De-Arabize Islam to please their much admired real masters .
The masters you are talking about are very real. The masters are their own desires.
Real masters? Do you mean, real master? God? Isn't that what this is all about?
So Tay, are you saying it's not your own "desire" to not follow religion and "have no religious routine", or was it a command from God?
They'll hide behind saying "Islam is only a label" or "Muslims" is just a label etc. But what they forget is that words are simply labels for meanings and/of things. God is the label for a meaning. Milk is the label used on the bottle that has... well.. milk in it. But you see, they rather say, "It's a bottle filled with the secreation that comes from a cow's tits." Cause it makes them "feel" good.
Look at this example here
The purpose of life is for the ONE BEING to have experience.
What exactly is the "ONE BEING?" Conciousness? If yes, then what is conciousness?
Yes
It is the core of all Living things, closer to the human than the jugular vienHe could have just said "God". But is it about God? or about vain desire?
Good thread. Peace be upon you.
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Peace M,
What's there to judge Tay?
People and the usage of the words "quran, muslim, etc." It's the title of this thread.
You yourself admit that you don't follow any religion nor do you have any religous routine.
Correct. Irrelevant, but correct.
The masters are their own desires.
There you go assuming again. You guys must have divine insight. angel
Tay, are you saying it's not your own "desire" to not follow religion and "have no religious routine", or was it a command from God?
Since you're a fan of dictionaries, let's clarify
re?li?gion /rldn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
?noun
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.Since the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe is still an evolving understanding, I do not adhere to any "religion". This is not out of desire - it is out of lack of knowledge. I reference, again, the importance of 1736 (a command from God)
And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
They'll hide behind saying "Islam is only a label" or "Muslims" is just a label etc. But what they forget is that words are simply labels for meanings and/of things.
I don't think anybody forgot this elementary lesson. I think you're simply not listening.
You choose to selectively translate Arabic words into English.
Some choose not to.You see, choices.
We all have them, and we all have our reasons.
And once the reasons are explained, then that's all you have to go on.So, what are your reasons for translating some words and not translating others?
Peace,
Tay -
peace,
Did I say We shouldn't translate Quran into The Great Reading ?
Did I say you did?
I said in my post above " why changed the Quran into The Great Reading " , so please note .
Already noted. Please re-read my post and note my use of "primarily".
There are many Great Reading Books , but they are not all called Quran in Arabic , or are they ?
In classical Arabic, "quran" is a common word meaning "reading/recitation/collection", any such book fulfilling this definition could have been classed as a "quran". There is a difference between a "quran" and THE "quran".
Bro wakas , you are one of the several people in the Forum that I Respect and whose Contributions I valued , you would know that Words usage is a Powerful Weapon , and a careful use of Certain Words could mean a Life and Death ( example later ) .
Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, if you truly respect me and my contributions, please read my posts carefully and do not draw what is not there. Secondly, do not be for me, nor against me, then all will be clear.
How many times does the Author of The Quran say haza Quran or this Quran ?
Exactly. Why does the author use "this"? Does a person use "this" for a unique title/name? No. This London? This Earth? No.
This How hard is it to look in the Quran Concordance how many times a Word occurs? Surely this is an elementary school Task .
I agree that the task is simple, understanding what one finds is the trickier part. I issued you the challenge because if you did do as suggested, you would have found very little evidence for islam/muslim/quran as titles/names. That was my point.
I am all for Translating the Whole Quran into an Easily Understood Language , not just English , but Do we have to change all the Key terms such as Quran , Muslim , Salam ect ?
They are not key terms, that is the point.
I don't know the meaning (s ) of your name Wakas , but can I call you the meaning of your name instead of your Real Given Name ?
No, because my name is an actual title/name. Have you ever heard "wakas" being used in a sentence? No.
Your example demonstrated that people can be overly sensitive to words. Perhaps if they spent the same energy in applying the words, the world would be better place. Of course, for this to happen, people have to realise they actually have a meaning and are not meaningless titles/names.
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Salam Tay,
People and the usage of the words "quran, muslim, etc." It's the title of this thread.
Correct. Irrelevant, but correct.It's relevant because you used the word "pack" and then deleted it when you quoted me above. So since you admit you don't follow any religion or have any religous routine what pack are you talking about ?
There you go assuming again. You guys must have divine insight. angel
No thank you, that's your vibey job. O0
Since the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe is still an evolving understanding, I do not adhere to any "religion". This is not out of desire - it is out of lack of knowledge. I reference, again, the importance of 1736 (a command from God)
And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.Thank you for finaly attempting to answer that question. It's not a general lack of knowledge, it perhaps your lack of knowledge. You rather use your lack of knowledge instead of pointing to what you know to help your stance and your desire to not follow religion or religous routine. And you use your lack of knowledge instead of God's commands and follow your own desire.
Lets take a nother look and see what knowledge you are ignoring. We know that Allah has created the Universe and the universe follows his laws (that includes us). 754 We know that the universe is expanding 5147.
Also, 7226 drives the point home to how you ignore God's Commands and Message
- "He (alone) knows the Unseen, nor does He make any one acquainted with His Mysteries,-
That verse above truely makes your excuse "not knowing the purpose of the universe"
Since the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe is still an evolving understanding, I do not adhere to any "religion".
a very poor excuse not to follow God's Religion. You are using your own desire to make excuses.
Here's a bit more that we know but you choose to ignore
- And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!
So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah. Yep sounds like Religous routine, which you admit you do not follow! So once again, So Tay, are you saying it's not your own "desire" to not follow religion and "have no religious routine", or was it a command from God?
So, what are your reasons for translating some words and not translating others?
Simple Tay, Certain words like Islam and Muslim already have a space inside the English Dictionary! -
peace -
Peace M,
It's relevant because you used the word "pack" and then deleted it when you quoted me above. So since you admit you don't follow any religion or have any religous routine what pack are you talking about ?
I didn't delete anything. I just didn't include it. Same way you didn't include my first sentence in my reply as opposed to standing corrected.
But, in order to allow you to visualize what I'm talking about, here's an exampleGroup A consists of 10 people. <---pack
2 people decided to leave the group . <---leaving the packComprende?
No thank you, that's your vibey job.
Umm...no, that's your assumption, in black and white. No vibes necessary.
Thank you for finaly attempting to answer that question.
Thanks for asking in an almost civil way, and you're welcome.
It's not a general lack of knowledge, it perhaps your lack of knowledge.
I didn't differentiate. But nice try though.
You rather use your lack of knowledge instead of pointing to what you know to help your stance and your desire to not follow religion or religous routine.
There you go assuming intention again. nope
That verse above truely makes your excuse "not knowing the purpose of the universe" a very poor excuse not to follow God's Religion. You are using your own desire to make excuses.
Umm, wrong guess, once again. You really should post more questions as opposed to your preconceived answers. That way, you may get some insight. Shooting in the dark like this is getting you nowhere.
Btw, 7226 is talking about the future. Here's the context you conveniently left out, from your favorite translator (notice the emphasis)
7225 Say "I know not whether the (Punishment) which ye are promised is near, or whether my Lord will appoint for it a distant term.
7226 "He (alone) knows the Unseen, nor does He make any one acquainted with His Mysteries,-
7227 "Except a messenger whom He has chosen and then He makes a band of watchers march before him and behind him,The messenger whom He has chosen is thus made "acquainted with His Mysteries". In this case, the mysteries of the future per 7225. And what is a messengers's job once he's received the message? To keep it to himself? Or deliver it? Luckily, messengers deliver messages and here we are trying to figure them out.
Here's a bit more that we know but you choose to ignore
- And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!
Ah, and I take it you have a monopoly on the correct interpretations of these concepts?
I don't claim such a thing. My knowledge on these subjects is still evolving but thus far, none of what I understand has anything to do with structured religion.I repeat My understanding has lead me to the point of not practicing any organized form of religion.
I did not say, my desire.You would have known this if you asked.
Instead, you go on about how I'm ignoring the verses, following my desires, etc.Simple Tay, Certain words like Islam and Muslim already have a space inside the English Dictionary!
Fair enough. I don't agree with the dictionary definitions. That's the crux of the matter.
You see, I disagree with you and your dictionary, and I have no problem with your understanding - because it's yours. I don't pretend to know your intentions, because their yours. Is it so hard to return the favor?peace
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Salaam Wakas
peace,
Did I say We shouldn't translate Quran into The Great Reading ?
Did I say you did?
I said in my post above " why changed the Quran into The Great Reading " , so please note .
Already noted. Please re-read my post and note my use of "primarily".
There are many Great Reading Books , but they are not all called Quran in Arabic , or are they ?
In classical Arabic, "quran" is a common word meaning "reading/recitation/collection", any such book fulfilling this definition could have been classed as a "quran". There is a difference between a "quran" and THE "quran".
Bro wakas , you are one of the several people in the Forum that I Respect and whose Contributions I valued , you would know that Words usage is a Powerful Weapon , and a careful use of Certain Words could mean a Life and Death ( example later ) .
Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, if you truly respect me and my contributions, please read my posts carefully and do not draw what is not there. Secondly, do not be for me, nor against me, then all will be clear.
How many times does the Author of The Quran say haza Quran or this Quran ?
Exactly. Why does the author use "this"? Does a person use "this" for a unique title/name? No. This London? This Earth? No.
This How hard is it to look in the Quran Concordance how many times a Word occurs? Surely this is an elementary school Task .
I agree that the task is simple, understanding what one finds is the trickier part. I issued you the challenge because if you did do as suggested, you would have found very little evidence for islam/muslim/quran as titles/names. That was my point.
I am all for Translating the Whole Quran into an Easily Understood Language , not just English , but Do we have to change all the Key terms such as Quran , Muslim , Salam ect ?
They are not key terms, that is the point.
I don't know the meaning (s ) of your name Wakas , but can I call you the meaning of your name instead of your Real Given Name ?
No, because my name is an actual title/name. Have you ever heard "wakas" being used in a sentence? No.
Your example demonstrated that people can be overly sensitive to words. Perhaps if they spent the same energy in applying the words, the world would be better place. Of course, for this to happen, people have to realise they actually have a meaning and are not meaningless titles/names.
Why I did not respond to your "challenge" re Muslim and Quran and their Root meanings and their occurrences . Wakas , whenever you asked this type of question You already know the answer and furthermore You have already made up your mind as their meanings , so why do you need my answer ? Is this all about Point Scoring to you ? and as you acknowledged yourself that it is a simpe task to look them up .
You said " In clasical arabic "quran" is a common word meaning reading ......................................................
Could you name One book in this other than al-Quran or The Quran itself that can be called Quran please ?Could you point out where in my post did I state that these are titles and names ? Key terms were what I used .
They might not be Key Terms to you , but they are to me and to a host of other people .About my example given in my previous post , It is what happened and it will happen in the Real World .....But then again I do not know if you live in the Real World . Perhaps if you spend more time in the Real World and observe , experience how words can drive people to commit all sorts In-human acts , and how Genocide can be sanitized by using Euphemism such as Etnic Cleansing etc , instead living in the Virtual World you'd better understand the Power of Words . It is we the Human who gave meanings to Words , not the Dictionaries . If you think that if a Word is in the Dictionary is a Proof then , I'd feel sory for you .
If I ask a Muslim , an Arab or even just an Informed Non Muslim about Quran without mentioning the "al " before it , do you think they would not know what I am talking about ? Am I being Pedantic here Bro wakas ? By the way , could you do me a favor about a word in the Quran that my 12 year old asked and I don't know the answer please ? The Word he is looking for is in The Dead Centre of the Quran , if you could just show me in what Surah and Verse please . ( Dead center as inthe middle of the Total number of Verses ) .
To Tay have you personally Verified that The Quran is from God ? ( I mean scientifically proven as per 1736 ) .
Also have you Scientifically or personally verified The Existence of God ? every word has more than One meaning , only an Idiot who won't be Selective in choosing/translating what meaning fit the context of a verse or a sentence.Brother Mehdi Thank you for your contributions , this may be my last post for awhile
salamun alaykum
almarh0m
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Peace almarh0m,
have you personally Verified that The Quran is from God?
What does personal verification entail?
If it's a subjective understanding based on personal experience and current knowledge, then yes, I would argue that the qur'an was probably inspired to someone by God.How about you?
have you Scientifically or personally verified The Existence of God?
Scientifically, no. First, because I'm not a scientist. But more importantly, because the infinite cannot possibly be measured by finite tools. As for personal verification, as expressed above, I would say yes. It's the only thing that makes sense.
How about you?
every word has more than One meaning
I'd say most, but maybe you're right.
only an Idiot who won't be Selective in choosing/translating what meaning fit the context of a verse or a sentence.
That's harsh. But anyway, how does the context dictate whether a term should be translated or not?
Peace,
Tay -
peace,
Why I did not respond to your "challenge" re Muslim and Quran and their Root meanings and their occurrences . Wakas , whenever you asked this type of question You already know the answer and furthermore You have already made up your mind as their meanings , so why do you need my answer ? Is this all about Point Scoring to you ? and as you acknowledged yourself that it is a simpe task to look them up .
I would not say I know the answer, but I would say I have a reasonable idea about the answer. Reasonable enough to question an alternative view that I feel does not fit, i.e. your position.
Made up my mind already? I have not made up my mind about anything and I am not averse to changing my view if evidence is shown to the contrary. Point scoring? Are you honestly telling me of all the posts you have read of mine, I do this for point scoring? Please show us where in my several thousand posts I have discussed 'al quran' and exhibited a "point-scoring" attitude? Let me tell you something, I approach discussion of 'al quran' with the utmost sincerity. A sincerity that constantly strives to transcend my ego/desires. To doubt this, is to doubt my very essence. Ironically, I am sure I did not gain your respect whilst exhibiting a lack of sincerity, so this tells me that perhaps your judgement has been clouded by an emotional response.Lets stick to evidence based discussion, not conjecture brother.
You said " In clasical arabic "quran" is a common word meaning reading ......................................................
Could you name One book in this other than al-Quran or The Quran itself that can be called Quran please ?If you checked the occurrences as suggested in my original post you would have seen 'al quran' itself uses it as a common word, beyond all reasonable doubt. Do you admit this yes or no? Have you gone through the occurrences? If you answer "yes" to the latter question, can you tell us how many occurrences show clear usage of a title/name? It is a simple request. If you answer "no" then you have not did the research and have thus formulated an ill-researched opinion.
Secondly, are you suggesting that when Classical Arabic dictionaries say "quran" can mean reading/recitation/collection, they are making this up, i.e. they based this on no evidence and cited no evidence?
If you do not wish to look up the occurrences, feel free to read the following article by brother Ayman
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htmCould you point out where in my post did I state that these are titles and names ? Key terms were what I used .
YOU are the one using a capital letter for Islam/Quran etc and a capital letter is only used for proper nouns, e.g. names/titles. Secondly, it is clearly implied from your usage of "call". Perhaps if you had used "describe" it would have been a different story.
Anyways, your above statement suggests you have either changed your position or it is in need of clarification. If you admit that they are not only titles/names, like your above statement suggests, then why do you have a problem with people using them as other than a title/name? Does your original point then have a point? I've got you cornered now, against the ropes, I'm throwing some heavy hitters... I'm bound to score some high points for this round.
(please note, the last sentence was in jest referencing your "point-scoring" comment in case it was not obvious) Ok, back to serious...They might not be Key Terms to you , but they are to me and to a host of other people .
And this is the problem. I'm trying to point out what I believe to be al quran's view, i.e. they are not key terms.
About my example given in my previous post , It is what happened and it will happen in the Real World .....But then again I do not know if you live in the Real World . Perhaps if you spend more time in the Real World and observe , experience how words can drive people to commit all sorts In-human acts , and how Genocide can be sanitized by using Euphemism such as Etnic Cleansing etc , instead living in the Virtual World you'd better understand the Power of Words . It is we the Human who gave meanings to Words , not the Dictionaries . If you think that if a Word is in the Dictionary is a Proof then , I'd feel sory for you .
Words can drive people to commit all sorts of inhumane acts? Power of words? This is not even under debate. I stated no such thing. Lets stick to the topic at hand.
I dont need a dictionary to support my view, in my original post I used 'al quran'. The challenge to which you did not give an answer.If I ask a Muslim , an Arab or even just an Informed Non Muslim about Quran without mentioning the "al " before it , do you think they would not know what I am talking about ? Am I being Pedantic here Bro wakas ?
Not sure about pedantic, but I know a non-Quran based argument when I see one. They are quite easy to identify, as they go off on tangents and never reference anything from 'al quran'.
By the way , could you do me a favor about a word in the Quran that my 12 year old asked and I don't know the answer please ? The Word he is looking for is in The Dead Centre of the Quran , if you could just show me in what Surah and Verse please . ( Dead center as inthe middle of the Total number of Verses ) .
No idea. I assume you'd have to find out the total number of signs/verses in 'al quran', then divide it by two, then count it out using total no. of signs/verses in each chapter to help you until it is reached.
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Quran is a nickname given to the revelation given to the last prophet, God bless him. It is direct and there is no need to translate, this actually has actual meaning.
Islam, has as the origin of its meaning an religious interpretation about submission to God, but that is only an etymology usually found in the dictionary in italics, followed by its real definition. Heres a quote from websters
Main Entry Is?lam
Pronunciation is-'l?m, iz-, -'lam, 'is-", 'iz-"
Function noun
Etymology Arabic islAm submission (to the will of God)
1 the religious faith of Muslims including belief in Allah as the sole deity and in Muhammad as his prophet
2 a the civilization erected upon Islamic faith b the group of modern nations in which Islam is the dominant religionYou see that is why Islam and Muslim need to be distinguished from the message Islaam lillahi and Muslim lilaahi to be found in the Quran. Islam and Muslim are English words but the message of Islam lillahi and muslim lillaahi need to be translated so that people can understand submission to God and not those definitions under 1 and 2. Definition one is the reason why I call myself Muslim and definition 2 is the reason why I don't like to emphasize that term as the official title of my religion (because that is not the point of the Quran's message), which is being a Quranist and following the religion of Abraham.
So Islam doesn't means submission to God to anyone that is just an etymology and a sometimes resorted to religious intepretation. The message of the Quran is submission to God (in every language) and are Muslim by default and more specifically that because we believe in God (Arab. Allahu) as the sole (being deserving to be treated and viewed as a) deity and in Muhammad as his (last) prophet.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Tay
Peace almarh0m,
What does personal verification entail?
If it's a subjective understanding based on personal experience and current knowledge, then yes, I would argue that the qur'an was probably inspired to someone by God.How about you?
Scientifically, no. First, because I'm not a scientist. But more importantly, because the infinite cannot possibly be measured by finite tools. As for personal verification, as expressed above, I would say yes. It's the only thing that makes sense.
How about you?
I'd say most, but maybe you're right.
That's harsh. But anyway, how does the context dictate whether a term should be translated or not?
Peace,
TayYes I have personally verified it through Observations , personal experinces , tests and other ways which lead me to my conclusion that It is from The God without any doubt .
Since when do you have to be a Scientist to scientifically prove whether a certain Text or whether an event occurred is true or not ? Did they not teach you at secondary school about the Scientific Method of Analysis ? I wonder how you arrived at your conclusions regarding The Quran is from The God and the Existence of God then . Tay , if you really don't know about the Scientific Method , here is a simple example Read or see Brother Ayman article " What's in a name " , you'll find that this is apropriate to this thread . my take on how Brother Ayman would have gone about it
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He defined The Question/Subject of his Research which is Name , found there are two Types of names i.e. common name and proper name .
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He gathered Information and Resources needed for this project , such as ; The Quran , Various Lexicons and Dictionaries , English and Arabic .
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He then formed his Hypotheses
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He then performed Tests/experiment/matching of data collected ( all relevant data and information he's gathered for his researched article )
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He would have analysed The Data ( matching all verses relevant to the subject of his research , meanings of words as per The Quran and Dictionaries , textual and contextual or whether thy are apporiately matched and consistency of meanings of the word being researched .
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He then Interpreted these data and Meaningful Information Before He drew any Conclusions about The Subject and Objective of the research. He may use these conclusions for further Research into the Subject or for another research related to this one ( New Hypotheses ) .
And finally , he published the result of this Research in a form of an Article which we all could read , enjoy and learn from .
That's how I came to my conclusions about The Quran is from The God and that God exists. I usd this method of analysis plus Dialectics to arrive at an Informed Conclusions which I refer to as my belief, my understanding of Texts or Events . I am sure you will find in The Quran Verses that urge us to read , Think and Analyse as such as 961 , 822 , 855 , and of course 1736 , ..."afa la taqqiloon " , "afa la tadabbarun .
Inspite of what I learnt from bro Ayman's " what's in a name " , I do not feel it is necessary to change The Quran into The Great Reading or Muslim into Submitter . Just imagine in the Non English Speaking Countries if we substituted the word Quran into an equivalent local language's word , do you think the people would recognize or know what you are talking about ? .
My sincere Thanks to Brother Wakas for providing the Link to the Article .
salaamun alaykum
almarh0m
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Peace All,
The very fact that people get worked up about how others use terms demonstrates the fact that we are being divisive (hope thats a word). I could care less if you want to call yourself a muslim, or a submitter. Do you think God really cares about what you label yourself? Maybe I shouldn't even get involved in this discussion since I don't take the quran/reading/recitation as my only source, hell, life itself means a lot more to me than words in a book. I find it amazing that people think the experiences they have are less important than words written down. What makes you think there is a right answer to these questions?
