ALERGY to the Words: Quran , Muslim etc !
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Peace almarh0m,
First, thank you for the thoughtful reply.
Since when do you have to be a Scientist to scientifically prove whether a certain Text or whether an event occurred is true or not ? Did they not teach you at secondary school about the Scientific Method of Analysis ? I wonder how you arrived at your conclusions regarding The Quran is from The God and the Existence of God then .
Well, like I said, from my personal experience and current level of knowledge. When you say "scientifically prove", I did not realize you were talking about a logical construct as brother Ayman's example. Nevertheless, it's not my cup of tea. Some of us are researchers, and some of us are not. I personally prefer to just read and ponder as opposed to trying to prove anything. For me, the proof comes in the application of what I've read.
Just imagine in the Non English Speaking Countries if we substituted the word Quran into an equivalent local language's word , do you think the people would recognize or know what you are talking about ? .
I see your point regarding the qur'an, and I agree. For the most part, that's the one word I don't translate because it refers to a specific book across all languages. However, regarding muslim, islam, etc, the specifics these words commonly refer to do not represent my understanding of them. Thus, I choose to translate.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace,
I hope my post was understood by everyone. it seemed a little unclear even to me. Here it is again. If the moderator doesn't like the seeming double-post please erase the previous message
"The Quran" is a nickname given by the people to the revelation that was given to the last prophet, God bless him. It is a direct nick-name and there is no need to translate, this has actual meaning.
"Islam" on the other hand has as the origin of its meaning (at least the one we find in the dictionary) a religious interpretation about submission to God. However, that is only an etymology and is usually found in the dictionary in italics, followed by its real definition. Heres a quote from webster's dictionary
Main Entry Is?lam
Pronunciation is-'l?m, iz-, -'lam, 'is-", 'iz-"
Function noun
Etymology Arabic islAm submission (to the will of God)
1 the religious faith of Muslims including belief in Allah as the sole deity and in Muhammad as his prophet
2 a the civilization erected upon Islamic faith b the group of modern nations in which Islam is the dominant religionYou see that is why Islam and Muslim need to be distinguished from the message of Islaam lillahi and Muslim lilaahi (submissiveness and being submissive to/for God) to be found in the Quran. Islam and Muslim are now English words as we can see above but the message of Islam lillahi and muslim lillaahi to be found in the Quran needs to be translated so that people can understand this submission to God when they are reffered to the Quran and not those definitions under 1 and 2 that we see above. Definition 1 is the reason why I call myself Muslim and definition 2 is the reason why I don't like to emphasize that term as the official title of my religion (because these empires and modern nations are not the point of the Quran's message), which is being a Quranist and following the religion of Abraham.
So Islam doesn't means submission to God to anyone who uses this term, that meaning is is just an (false) etymology and sometimes religious intepretation that Muslims resort to. The message of the Quran is submission to God (in every language) and Quranists/Quranites/Quran-aloners are Muslim by default. But more specifically we believe in God (Allah in Arab.) as the sole (being deserving to be treated and viewed as a) deity and in Muhammad as his (last) prophet and in the Quran as the message of God that was revaled to this last prophet and given to us by him.
You can also see my article at http//www.peoplepro-god.org/Islam.html
Godbless,
Anwar -
Salaam Wakas
Did I say We shouldn't translate Quran into The Great Reading ? I said in my post above " why changed the Quran into The Great Reading " , so please note . As an intelligent person , you do not have to translate any Book to know that , Books are for Reading in whatever language . There are many Great Reading Books , but they are not all called Quran in Arabic , or are they ? Bro wakas , you are one of the several people in the Forum that I Respect and whose Contributions I valued , you would know that Words usage is a Powerful Weapon , and a careful use of Certain Words could mean a Life and Death ( example later ) .
How many times does the Author of The Quran say haza Quran or this Quran ? How hard is it to look in the Quran Concordance how many times a Word occurs? Surely this is an elementary school Task . I am all for Translating the Whole Quran into an Easily Understood Language , not just English , but Do we have to change all the Key terms such as Quran , Muslim , Salam ect ? Imagine if The Hindus start calling their Vedas, Baghavat Gitas , mahabharat , and Ramayana into their respective meanings , do you think the younger generation of Hindus will still recognize the religion and culture of their Forebears ? The same could be said for The Jewish Scriptures , The Christian's Bible ( Gospel ) Godspell , should people start calling these Books by their Respective meanings instead of By the name they are widely Known ???
I don't know the meaning (s ) of your name Wakas , but can I call you the meaning of your name instead of your Real Given Name ? Or should I start caling Layth Lion because I know that is the meaning of his name ? and how many times does the Word Allah occurs in The Quran ? Hundreds of times , but whether you use the Word Allah or God , people still Understand but not so with The Quran and Muslim . Let me give you an example brother , suppose I write in a Newspaper ( Indonesia/ India or Pakistan ) that Some People in some suburbs in the Capital are using Pages from The Great Reading to Wipe their backsides , do you think it will have an effect as Bad if I wrote Some people in some Suburbs in the capital used The Pages of The Quran to wipe their arses ? . One does not have to have a PhD in anything to predict that a certain Murderous Riots will Erupt everywhere in the Country should I choose to use the latter . So can you see difference between Using the Actual word Quran and its Effect on People instead of The very Ordinary Great reading ? .
I repeat , I support all effort to Translate the Quran to get to Its True meanings as intended By Allah The God , however , the Key terms should be left alone as generally speaking people perfectly understand what they are .
And I am not condemning those who tries to corrupt Deen al Islam from within ( after all , it is their Jobs ) , Only those who show an even Greater willingness to accept this Corruption .Peace be upon you
almarh0m
Cery weel said bro
salam
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Cery = Very
Sorry
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We don't say Islam is an Arabic religion
What Allah said, is this "THIS IS AN ARABIC QURAN"?
do you get it?
Salam all
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Salam All~
No offense, but I think alot of people here on this post, are missing the entire point of being muslim. Seems you have gotten so wrapped up in segregating yourself from sunnis and shias, that your forgetting who you really are, or what I should say, who you should be. If you cannot call yourself muslims, call your religion Islam, and can't call the Quran by its arabic name, then I think you have a real problem. And Wakas, no offense...but I think you are almost transgressing. When you sit there, and try and break down every single word and thing about the Quran and make it difficult for yourselves and others and when that is what the majority of your effort is in, you are no longer educating yourself for benefit, but being led away from the purpose. Why dont you take a break, read the quran without your lexicon, and without the forum, and without all your scholarly translations, and see if it becomes any clearer. I hate to sound B**chy,.. but I find it appalling and downright ridiculous that all of you who have these issues with arabic words, and name of islam and muslims, and such...you have such a pointless effort to delude others in calling themselves muslims, and calling the Quran by its name, and Islam as our religion.
GIVE ME A BREAK! brickwall -
Peace to all,
I agree with you completely Honor (as usual), it seems that some are more concerned with the trivial minutia of interpretations and lose the bigger picture. I have generally stayed quiet on these types of issues because I am only certain over a few things, and they are the important ones. I am a Muslim because thats what I feel like and I know what it means for me, if others arent or dont feel comfortable saying they are thats fine with me, but why are we here on this forum, isnt this Progressive Muslims.org? However, I also believe that since we are a young and new (true) form of Islam that others have strayed from we must be careful and patient before we really openly declare what we believe and stand for, hence, i am patient. There are many very intelligent and hard working brothers and sisters here that are doing alot of good research and trying to define what our core priciples are. But much of this is not needed or vital for our souls salvation. So in the meantime, I say Im a Muslim because I believe in and submit to God only, and I believe that the Quran was revealed as the final and most perfect revelation to the Prophet Mohammad by God, it does confirm and correct exactly what and where I always doubted or was confused. I was walking in confusion my whole life because I was raised Roman Catholic, i tried my best to be devout, but something was missing inside my soul that I could only feel but not define. I struggled, strayed, and always searched, and searched, not knowing what for or why, until I read the Quran, then I felt a slow and subtle settling of my soul, I found inner peace that I knew was the truth i was looking for, I havent had a bad day since.
So, while I do think its ok and acceptable for us to try to refine and define some of the minor issues, and that many here are doing a great job at this, and I appreciate everyones contributions and opinions, I still believe that if we dont at least agree on a few core beliefs that make us different than others , then what is the point of this whole endeavor, were not here just for vain talk and idle sport are we.
Again, Honor, im with you sister, hope all is going well for you.
Kurt
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Salam All~
No offense, but I think alot of people here on this post, are missing the entire point of being muslim. Seems you have gotten so wrapped up in segregating yourself from sunnis and shias, that your forgetting who you really are, or what I should say, who you should be. If you cannot call yourself muslims, call your religion Islam, and can't call the Quran by its arabic name, then I think you have a real problem. And Wakas, no offense...but I think you are almost transgressing. When you sit there, and try and break down every single word and thing about the Quran and make it difficult for yourselves and others and when that is what the majority of your effort is in, you are no longer educating yourself for benefit, but being led away from the purpose. Why dont you take a break, read the quran without your lexicon, and without the forum, and without all your scholarly translations, and see if it becomes any clearer. I hate to sound B**chy,.. but I find it appalling and downright ridiculous that all of you who have these issues with arabic words, and name of islam and muslims, and such...you have such a pointless effort to delude others in calling themselves muslims, and calling the Quran by its name, and Islam as our religion.
GIVE ME A BREAK! brickwallWhile I can see where you are coming from, I believe you are misinterpreting brother Wakas' intentions. He is not trying to make it more difficult, but by translating these words, (islam, muslim, quran) using them as he feels they were written instead of using them as proper nouns, he's trying to make things more clear. It's not so much that he has issues with arabic words, but that he believes the meaning of the words is more important than the words themselves. I'm sure he has read the quran many times in different translations and maybe untranslated, I know I've read more translations than i can count. Perhaps it is you who should try reading the quran with his translation and see if it changes the message or not, or if it clarifies or clouds your reading.
This forum is a place of discussion, where we can learn from each other and occasionally disagreements will happen, if they never did, there would never be any real learning but just a forum full of bobbleheads agreeing without thinking with each other. We need not only be "Free Minds" but occasionally open minds as well.
Peace,
Nurd
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peace honor, all,
And Wakas, no offense...but I think you are almost transgressing.
No offence taken. I would prefer however, if you brought forth an argument actually based on al quran's use of the words. It is a very simple request.
Anyone on this forum can go through the occurrences in 'al quran' and see for themselves how it uses the words islam/quran/muslim. The proof is in the pudding.
Nurd, your comments were spot on in terms of the point I was making.
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While I can see where you are coming from, I believe you are misinterpreting brother Wakas' intentions. He is not trying to make it more difficult, but by translating these words, (islam, muslim, quran) using them as he feels they were written instead of using them as proper nouns, he's trying to make things more clear. It's not so much that he has issues with arabic words, but that he believes the meaning of the words is more important than the words themselves. I'm sure he has read the quran many times in different translations and maybe untranslated, I know I've read more translations than i can count. Perhaps it is you who should try reading the quran with his translation and see if it changes the message or not, or if it clarifies or clouds your reading.
This forum is a place of discussion, where we can learn from each other and occasionally disagreements will happen, if they never did, there would never be any real learning but just a forum full of bobbleheads agreeing without thinking with each other. We need not only be "Free Minds" but occasionally open minds as well.
Peace,
Nurd
Salam Nurd~
Thank you for your kind refuttal. I agree with you, I think brother Wakas is trying hard to find truth, and research root literal meanings, however..I disagree, I do not feel the need to spend hours/days/weeks/ devote my life to looking for reasons not to call myself muslim, the religion Islam, and the Quran by its given name. I am content and will remain content to always call these three names by their Arabic names. And I am not even an Arab. There is a reason why the Quran came in Arabic. And if Islam, means submission to god..and someone says what is your religion, I don't need to say the meaning but the word, so I will say Islam, and if they ask what that means I will describe the meaning. Same with Muslim and Quran. But apologies to brother Wakas if i picked on him. I am grateful to his education in this forum, and enjoy many of his posts, but I can also disagree. And I still admit, sometimes I feel that Wakas and others are led away from the purpose and point, endlessly searching a futile subject, that serves no real purpose.
Kind regards, and apologies to those I offended.
Honor
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peace honor, all,
No offence taken. I would prefer however, if you brought forth an argument actually based on al quran's use of the words. It is a very simple request.
Anyone on this forum can go through the occurrences in 'al quran' and see for themselves how it uses the words islam/quran/muslim. The proof is in the pudding.
Nurd, your comments were spot on in terms of the point I was making.
Salam Wakas,
I am sorry if I offend you and come off arrogant and rude, sometimes I am emmotional. However brother, I have used occurences as proof. Just go to SAbboushi's thread on Calling yourself Muslim and you will see my post. Once again my apologies, I really do like you
Honor
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peace honor,
I just checked the thread you refer to. You referenced 2278 as your evidence. That's fine, I have no problem with that, but just so we are clear, out of 42 occurrences of the word "muslim" you cited 1.
How many references can you cite for the words "quran" and "islam"?
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Salam Wakas,
You must of not read the entire post, you only say one ayat?? I gave several, and in most of them not only will you find the word muslim, but Islam. As far as the Quran, you can see that cited under the same post, when Im talking about how it came in Arabic.
Honor
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Peace,
Honor every quote you quoted you should translated all of the words including the words Muslim and translate that into submissive or submissive ones in every place where you have the word Muslim or Muslims.
AhmedBaghat,
You should translate every occurance of the word 'Quran' ONLY WITHIN THE QURAN to a reading or the reading (even this reading in some cases).
However when speaking about the book outside of the Quran you should refer to it by its man-made nickname the Quran. Calling it the great reading only repeats the same process by which we have the nickname the Quran, but in English. I don't think two wrongs make a right.Godbless,
Anwar -
Salamun alaykum
Changing The Quran into " The Great Reading " is not a Progressive Step , but rather a Retrograde ( Retrogressive ) move . The reality is , The Quran is widely known By Muslims ( Submitters ) and Non Muslims alike . So why the Need to change it into The Great Reading ? What is the Compelling Reason that demand this change ?
Just try to walk into your major Book Store and ask for "The Great Reading" and find out the reaction of the Sales-Assistant . I tried it yesterday at Angus and Robertson's Store as well as Dymocks Store , gues what ? They took me around the store and showed me all The Late Releases from Wilbur Smith novel to How to be a millionaire working 2 hours a day without leaving your home , the sales-assistants told me They are all Great Readings . None of them knew that I was looking for The Quran .Peace
almarh0m
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peace almarh0m,
I actually agree that changing "quran" to "great reading" isn't really necessary. But the point that needs to be made is that this book really doesn't have a title. It's "a quran." It's "a reading" (not even great). I think that's been proven. And using (or mis-using) quran as a title doesn't create an y confusion. It does with the words "muslim" and "islam"
If the quran says we must unite with other "muslim" people, how will you do that? Will you look for people who call themselves Muslims? even if they are horrible people? No, you wouldn't. You will look for "true" muslims, but that isn't a term used by the quran. A muslim person is just a muslim person. This is a pretty simple concept, and I think people's emotional attachment to these words is preventing them from understanding it. -
Salaam all
phoenix which verse says that muslims should be united? This is a genuine question.
In fact I think there is a point in translating the quraan into The Great Reading, especially to many muslims who tend to just put the quraan as a decoration in the hous or hang some decorated verses on the wall. My father "whom I think now of as being a quraan aloner" went to my married sister's house and saw one of these verses hanging. He asked her what that was, she said from the quraan. He said to her "it is called quraan not mir'aa (mirror, derived from the verb to see)". When people think of it as a title, they forget that it is a must read.
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phoenix which verse says that muslims should be united? This is a genuine question.
It was a hypothetical. I said, "if." (I wasn't trying to make stuff up, just so you know)But I think the quran does say something about making the right friends? Or even if the quran doesn't, we should make the right friends, and we can't do that if we go by superficial labels.
