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Can you give us an example of an impossible/inapplicable law from the Quran, if you are truthful?
Big difference between "impossible" and "inapplicable" (but both can be justified in only specific cases), LOL!There are not one but several examples of Quranic injunctions that are not applicable today (or perhaps may never have been). One such Quranic law is the distribution of inheritance.
Can you present one factual evidence from any Muslim family (adult parent/s) or even from an accountant who sits around all day long (or perhaps for days and weeks) calculating their financial assets and goods to be distributed to their loved ones in absolute accuracy and preciseness AS PER THE QURAN (47-8, 411-12, 433, 4176)? Please present the entire details of distribution?
Also, is inheritance acquired from parents only to be distributed AFTER their death?
On the contrary, was there a monetary (paper/coinage) system or a barter system during Muhammad's reign?
Other examples on lashings/whippings (242, 244); cutting thieves hands (53; killings, crucifixions, cutting hands and feet on alternate sides, banishing from lands (533); beheadings/slaughterings (1165, 146, 26157, 284, 9114) and stonings to death (while this may not be explicit but several verses point to them such as 224, 832, 1182-83, 1191, 1574, 1820, 1946, 26116, 3618, 5133, 5434, 666, 1054 along with explicit statements in ahadiths), ALL of which DO NOT apply today, though extremely rare even in some Muslim countries. History and other holy books are also full of such stories and were not the sole punishments carried out by only Arabs or Muslims of their times, if that is what worries you. Those were barbaric pagan laws common to them and perhaps "justified" in their times pitiless (242). I've already elaborated on this previously.
Finally, just because somethings or events are not mentioned in the Quran DOES NOT mean they never existed. Quran is not the only book that exists today by which human beings cannot live their lives without, yet I respect the book for lot of its wisdom emanating from previous generations as seen today.
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Do we have any evidence in the Quran where it says it was only created for a people who live in the 6th century? No.
Do you have any evidence in the Quran that mentions exact number of days to FAST during Ramadan? Do you have any evidence in the Quran that precisely mentions that the Quran is for ALL TIMES?Besides, as mentioned in my previous post, just because somethings or events are not mentioned in the Quran DOES NOT mean they never existed.
Genteel, you are undermining God's wisdom and inventing ideas which you do not find in the Quran which is leading you away from the Quran.
Genteel your disbelief in the Quran and God's timeless wisdom is an issue between you and God. Don't get frustrated with me, your frustration is really with God and you need to deal with that. All I can recommend to you is that you let the Quran tell you what to do and how to be instead of trying to tell the Quran what to do and how it should be.
Anwar, at this juncture, I can only humbly request you to refrain from putting up with silly arguments and getting personal. I am discussing certain ancient laws and subject matters in contrast to modern ones. If you have the courage to discuss them, then please do so ethically without pointing fingers.The question of waiting 4 months after a divorce just to find out if the women is pregnant or not, is not applicable today and is meaningless. Now, is this law impossible, perhaps not but will certainly not pass given the technology at hand.
Peace!
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Do you have any evidence in the Quran that mentions exact number of days to FAST during Ramadan? Do you have any evidence in the Quran that precisely mentions that the Quran is for ALL TIMES?
\Do you not read the Quran? It is a reminder and a guidance for all mankind. That means everyone that can be consider apart of mankind after the Quran it is here to guide, when and however it reaches that person. I can't believe you would even ask this question. Please think a little more on what the Quran says. Mankind means mankind, from its revelation on. As it concerns the evidence about how many number of days to fast, firstly what does that have to do with this at all. Secondly, it actually does. That relies on how many days a month is, a shahr. A shahr consists of 29 or 30 night to night Islamic days, which equals 30
sunrise to sunrise days. I'm sure you just brought this up as sort of a low blow, but check out my post on this issue here so you can get yourself up to speedhttp//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14636.msg137877#msg137877
Besides, as mentioned in my previous post, just because somethings or events are not mentioned in the Quran DOES NOT mean they never existed.
Who in the world ever claimed this, and what makes you bring this up? I never said anything like this, so what is your point?
Anwar, at this juncture, I can only humbly request you to refrain from putting up with silly arguments and getting personal. I am discussing certain ancient laws and subject matters in contrast to modern ones. If you have the courage to discuss them, then please do so ethically without pointing fingers.
I guess you've opened up the insults now. . . silly? . .. nonsensical? I didn't see anyting silly or nonsensical in what I said. So why the insults Genteel? What I said was actually very relevant, what is the real reason that you want to nullify parts of the Quran and call them archaic besides your being frustrated with the book in some form or another? Or frustrated with God for imposing archaic laws (as far as you see them) on humanity? So I guess your going about fixing what God messed up hunh? God made an oopsy, so your going to fix it, by saying "Oh he didn't mean that for everyone, that was for the people back then" while God says his message is for mankind, despite the age we are in. I'm not being personal, I'm being true. That's probably why you seem to be getting tee'd off.
The question of waiting 4 months after a divorce just to find out if the women is pregnant or not, is not applicable today and is meaningless. Now, is this law impossible, perhaps not but will certainly not pass given the technology at hand.
Again, this is only one of the reasons we have seen for why this policy is good. Those of us who believe in God will follow it and those of us who do not believe that God is correct will not. There may be other reasons for this as well. Let's say a woman spots for 3 menstrual periods (NOT 4 months) and doesn't show until she is 5 or 6 months and has already married again? In a general way it is a good way to give the woman time if she is pregnant or not, but there may be other reasons behind this that we have not seen yet. What of women in the world who can't afford pregnancy tests or don't have them available to them? So I guess God's law only doesn't apply to the well off who have enough money to get a blood pregnancy test (the most accurate)? Hunh? Come on, understand that God knows more than you do and it is more wise to follow what God wants us to do then to try to out reason God, when we don't even come close to his wisdom. What you are doing is challenging God's wisdom and I find it to be totally wrong. This is not scholarship, it is not based on grammar or on any other Quranic passage, it is based on your conjectures which are bordering on kufr of God's wisdom, let me say. Now I don't think you should be killed, persecuted or that your life is meaningless because I think your thoughts border on this type of kufr, however this is what I see. I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings.
I'm sure you'll be spitting out a fiery rant after this, but truth is truth.Godbless,
Anwar -
Anwar,
I requested you to bring evidence in the Quran that precisely mentions that "Quran is for all times". You obviously couldn't or simply didn't understand and thus injected mankind to mean for all times. Mankind DOES NOT itself mean FOR ALL TIMES. Mankind essentially refers to all living humankind when addressing any statements or issues as of its time. If Mr. Anwar were to address the world for his new invention today via television broadcast, your message will be heard by all humankind currently living. Neither the dead nor the unborn can hear you. The future generation may adapt to your invention unless other modified and superior inventions are brought about over yours. This is normal, basic and changes with time. I'd like to see you ride on donkeys and camels on freeways just because the technology of automobile was not available during Muhammad's time and therefore must be enforced as per 6th century. That would be scary & and shocking elektro
Let me make it a little easier on you. Can you provide evidence from the Quran that precisely mentions "mankind for all times"? Do you any idea how people lived 10 million years ago and how people will live 10 million years from now, by your very definition of mankind?
Shahr DOES NOT mean 29 or 30 days. Where did you get that from? Please bring evidence that Quran mentions 29 or 30 days to reference Ramadan without assumptions or hypothesies? You obviously can't. All you seem to be doing is to bend over backwards to defend your wanton claims, starting to insult and play with words. That is expected.
3 months of waiting period AFTER divorce in addition to the fact that 4 months waiting period BEFORE the divorce, is unecessary and nonsensical. You keep regurgitating about today's pregnancy tests getting wrong results just to stubbornly support your meaningless ancient waiting periods. Blood tests reveal pregnancy even before the first mentrual cycle and is very unlikely that all blood tests carried out for the first time by all females throughout the world must go wrong. A female can very well take another test the same day or the next day or from another clininc just to be certain. You are not only defying our current scientific methods and technologies used but common sense, which Muhammad DID NOT have or your god forgot to mention in the Quran or simply forgot that this was coming and gave all this trouble to use your mind, eyes and ears in the 21century.
As mentioned earlier, rules, conditions and methods change over time but the fundamental principles of living a peaceful, righteous and purposeful life will always remain.
Peace!
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Big difference between "impossible" and "inapplicable" (but both can be justified in only specific cases), LOL!
There are not one but several examples of Quranic injunctions that are not applicable today (or perhaps may never have been). One such Quranic law is the distribution of inheritance.
Can you present one factual evidence from any Muslim family (adult parent/s) or even from an accountant who sits around all day long (or perhaps for days and weeks) calculating their financial assets and goods to be distributed to their loved ones in absolute accuracy and preciseness AS PER THE QURAN (47-8, 411-12, 433, 4176)? Please present the entire details of distribution?
Also, is inheritance acquired from parents only to be distributed AFTER their death?
On the contrary, was there a monetary (paper/coinage) system or a barter system during Muhammad's reign?
Other examples on lashings/whippings (242, 244); cutting thieves hands (53; killings, crucifixions, cutting hands and feet on alternate sides, banishing from lands (533); beheadings/slaughterings (1165, 146, 26157, 284, 9114) and stonings to death (while this may not be explicit but several verses point to them such as 224, 832, 1182-83, 1191, 1574, 1820, 1946, 26116, 3618, 5133, 5434, 666, 1054 along with explicit statements in ahadiths), ALL of which DO NOT apply today, though extremely rare even in some Muslim countries. History and other holy books are also full of such stories and were not the sole punishments carried out by only Arabs or Muslims of their times, if that is what worries you. Those were barbaric pagan laws common to them and perhaps "justified" in their times pitiless (242). I've already elaborated on this previously.
Finally, just because somethings or events are not mentioned in the Quran DOES NOT mean they never existed. Quran is not the only book that exists today by which human beings cannot live their lives without, yet I respect the book for lot of its wisdom emanating from previous generations as seen today.
Thanks. I haven't studied inheritance in the Quran yet.
As for the verses cited, the overwhelming number of those have been found to have relatively little to do with "cutting hands and feet" and so on. The only such thing that stands up is whipping.
As for the Quran being for all times 2185, 33, 3138, 544, 1057, 1855, many more.
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Genteel,
I see that this discussion is like talking to the air. You are not going to here what I am saying. You ask me to bring proof of where the Quran says it is for all times, and then claim that you are right that the Quran was only revealed for the people of the 6th century; whereas I obviously have more in my favor as the Quran says that it is for all mankind (OBVIOSLY MANKIND DURING ITS REVELATION AND AFTER IT) and can point to something that lends to the idea that the Quran is for all mankind after its revelation, you assume something that has absolutely no helping verses or ideas within the Quran, but which you conjectured all on your own. Genteel this idea of yours is conjecture on your part pure and simple. The Quran saying that it is for Mankind is enough to support what I am saying, and enough to go against what you are saying.
Also who said that I think we should be riding camels and donkeys on highways? Did I ever say that? Why are you trying to put words into my mouth? Does the Quran say that we should ride donkeys and camels only? Where are you getting this stuff from
? It is one thing to say that the Quran laws are timeless and another thing to say that we are supposed to maintian our environments like the environment of the revelation of the Quran (6th century Arabian environments). Does the Quran ever say that? Where are you getting this stuff from? And what's more, why are you resorting to extreme arguments to support your case?As it concerns a month, go to lane and do the calculations yourself and you will see that 30 sunrise to sunrise days is right there before your eyes, and equals 29 sundown to sundown days. Secondly the Quran implies this where 2 months of fasting can be compensated by feeding 60 people, and that one day's fast is to be compensated by feeding 1 person. I am not inventing this if you looked and thought on it you would see this.
In the end, believe what you like. You totally misunderstood what I was saying about the pregnancy issue as well. However as a final word I'll recap
- Pregancy might be only ONE (among many) reasons for 3 MENSTRUAL PERIODS (not months) of waiting for the divorced woman. God knows best.
- If pregnancy is one of the reasons let us consider that this is a practical method for women of all economic classes, lifestyles and resources. Not everyone lives in an area or can afford to have blood tests done to be completely sure of their pregnancy.
- Again God knows best and it is not best for us once we are sure of His book and Him to doubt his commands.
Do you eat pastured, organic, well cooked pork?
Cows that have been beaten over the head, to be slaughtered?
Do you have protected sex with more than one partner(man or woman) to whom you are not married or engaged (if your mate is of your opposite sex)?
Will you have unprotected sex with your siblings or your parents?These are all safe activities and Old traditions only good for when the Quran was revealed according to you, now that we have condoms, birth control, and as long as we raise our pigs naturally and cook them well.
These are some of the logical ramifications of what you are saying. I totally, totally totally disagree with you, and I find your thinking to be a perversion of the heart. However that is your choice, may God guide you. {Peace.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Thanks. I haven't studied inheritance in the Quran yet.
Good, I hope you study the entire Quran well enough before asking for inapplicable verses pertaining to our current generation and there are several. I just gave you one example of inheritance as requested and the other being discussed (waiting periods after divorce).As for the verses cited, the overwhelming number of those have been found to have relatively little to do with "cutting hands and feet" and so on. The only such thing that stands up is whipping.
All the verses that I cited previously are not specific to "cutting hands and feet". Please read carefully.As for the Quran being for all times 2185, 33, 3138, 544, 1057, 1855, many more.
Those verse has nothing to do with "ALL TIMES". ???Peace!
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I asked for the "inapplicable verses" for that very reason.
As for that, what connotations does mankind bring? How many mankinds are there? How do we count the number of mankinds?
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... the Quran says that it is for all mankind (OBVIOSLY MANKIND DURING ITS REVELATION AND AFTER IT) and can point to something that lends to the idea that the Quran is for all mankind after its revelation,...
Unlike yourself, the answer has already been presented without deviance, hypothesis or wanton claims. Mankind does not mean "for all times". Please re-read my previous post. It also goes against verses such as 2134, 2141, 2143. Quran is a guidance (counseling) and a reflection of the past. Laws, rules and conditions change and have been changed from time to time. There is no question about that.As it concerns a month, go to lane and do the calculations yourself and you will see that 30 sunrise to sunrise days is right there before your eyes, and equals 29 sundown to sundown days. Secondly the Quran implies this where 2 months of fasting can be compensated by feeding 60 people, and that one day's fast is to be compensated by feeding 1 person. I am not inventing this if you looked and thought on it you would see this.
All the above has nothing to do with "shahr" being 29 or 30 days and neither the Quran specifically mentions that. The number of days to fast in Ramadan is also not mentioned. The 2 months of fasting to feed 60 people has also nothing to do with Ramadan and that too is inapplicable and meaningless today. Good grief! o- Pregancy might be only ONE (among many) reasons for 3 MENSTRUAL PERIODS (not months) of waiting for the divorced woman.
- If pregnancy is one of the reasons let us consider that this is a practical method for women of all economic classes, lifestyles and resources. Not everyone lives in an area or can afford to have blood tests done to be completely sure of their pregnancy.
There is absolutely nothing practical about waiting 3 months AFTER DIVORCE to "test" for pregnancy given the already 4 months BEFORE divorce, in which both the "pregnancy" and the "reconciliation" can be meted out. The marriage relationship ENDS after divorce. It's a whole different matter if they wish to re-marry.
... now that we have condoms, birth control,
Excellent achievement.I'm afraid, your arguments are baseless and bears no credit.
Peace!
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I asked for the "inapplicable verses" for that very reason.
As for the verses cited, the overwhelming number of those have been found to have relatively little to do with "cutting hands and feet" and so on.
All the verses that I cited previously are not specific to "cutting hands and feet". Please read carefully.
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Peace,
Genteel
2134, 2141, 2143. are your proof?The first two verses are talking about Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac and Job and his sons. God bless them all. And the second Ja&lnaa can mean 'We have made' not the purely past tense 'We made.' There is no way you can fit your understanding into these passages in anyway or with the rest of the Quran.
May you and others forgive me for the truth that I am about to say but,
You are a twister of the Quran and a rejector of the book if I have ever seen one. And if you haven't realized this yet then there is no point to this exchange with you. Repent from your ways and hold strongly to what God has sent down as the Quran says you should. If you don't then you are a muharrif(tiwster) and a kafir(denier) OF THE Quran, and blatantly so.In the end your faith will be judged by God, but I will say to you clearly that I do not agree with you and will never agree to this illogical and blasphemous way of thinking of yours. If you want my advice, believe in the whole of the Quran, as ALL of it is from God. If you cannot then accept that either you have not reached a personal understanding of the book to make you agree with it or that you are a blatant rejector of it. If you cannot agree to even this and this makes you angry then I must say that this is hypocrisy and undercover kufr in God and His book, if I have ever seen any kind of hypocrisy & undercover kufr. Good day and God bless you, and may he guide you to the right way.
Godbless,
AnwarP.S.
(As it concerns the month,(and this is an issue that YOU brought up, not me, as I know this has nothing to do with what we are talking about) you will not find the exact words that a month is 29 or 30 days in the Quran (although it is implied) but you WILL find it in the dictionaries expressedly stated and implied (see Lane's Lexicon for shahr). Again 29 or 30 night to night (Islamic days) will always equal 30 sunrise to sunrise (Quranic) days before the new months begins. But why did you even bring this up? As you state you believe that fasting for Ramadan or fasting to compensate for any sin is obsolete and doesn't apply to you anyway.) You don't have to reply to this as this is more for everyone else reading along besides you. Again, peace and may God guide you to the right way. -
Anwar, giveup
Peace!
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I haven't.
Alright, the evidence is not direct (there is, but I forgot where), in the same way that Muhammad is indirectly established as the prophet who recieved the Quran, but
006.025
YUSUFALI Of them there are some who (pretend to) listen to thee; but We have thrown veils on their hearts, So they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they saw every one of the signs, not they will believe in them; in so much that when they come to thee, they (but) dispute with thee; the Unbelievers say "These are nothing but tales of the ancients."008.031
YUSUFALI When Our Signs are rehearsed to them, they say "We have heard this (before) if we wished, we could say (words) like these these are nothing but tales of the ancients."016.024
YUSUFALI When it is said to them, "What is it that your Lord has revealed?" they say, "Tales of the ancients!"You get the picture...
Anyway, how many mankinds are there?
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I haven't.
Alright, the evidence is not direct (there is, but I forgot where), in the same way that Muhammad is indirectly established as the prophet who recieved the Quran, but
006.025
YUSUFALI Of them there are some who (pretend to) listen to thee; but We have thrown veils on their hearts, So they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they saw every one of the signs, not they will believe in them; in so much that when they come to thee, they (but) dispute with thee; the Unbelievers say "These are nothing but tales of the ancients."008.031
YUSUFALI When Our Signs are rehearsed to them, they say "We have heard this (before) if we wished, we could say (words) like these these are nothing but tales of the ancients."016.024
YUSUFALI When it is said to them, "What is it that your Lord has revealed?" they say, "Tales of the ancients!"You get the picture...
Try harder and you shall get both the evidence and the picture.Anyway, how many mankinds are there?
Three! -
A) Is that not exactly what you are saying, tales of the ancients?
B) Explain?