no miracles?
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i was under the impression that this one is an illusion )
1585 We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them but in truth (Haq).
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wow some verse choppin goodness right there
you think that one verse matters up against the myriad of others that mention this physical world as an illusion?
this is where you have to be careful and not take one verse and go all buckwild and jump to conclusions
if it were an illusion would it make it less "haqq" to you?
seriously.
feel free to take everything i say completely out of context, not my concern.
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wow some verse choppin goodness right there
you think that one verse matters up against the myriad of others that mention this physical world as an illusion?
this is where you have to be careful and not take one verse and go all buckwild and jump to conclusions
if it were an illusion would it make it less "haqq" to you?
seriously.
feel free to take everything i say completely out of context, not my concern.
Peace Brother,
Please dont feel that as an attacke. Just explain if I have understood the verse wrong.
Truth speaks out humbly. Peace be upon you peace
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i don't take it as an attack, i just think you need to revise your method of taking a statement someone makes and turning on your search program and then pasting the first verses you find into posts... everyone needs to avoid this practice in my opinion.
i don't know if i agree with truth speaking out humbly either... i recall reading somewhere once that truth smashes falsehood
truth is all up in your face
but that's just me )
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i don't take it as an attack, i just think you need to revise your method of taking a statement someone makes and turning on your search program and then pasting the first verses you find into posts... everyone needs to avoid this practice in my opinion.
i don't know if i agree with truth speaking out humbly either... i recall reading somewhere once that truth smashes falsehood
truth is all up in your face
but that's just meI would still like you to explain that right concept of that verse and what is illusion accroding to you.
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gh r w r
the root gh r starts on page 21 of volume six
pretty much has to do with illusion, falsehood, deception, etc.
m t ' on page 216 of volume 7
w ma al hyw~ al dnya ila mt' al ghrwr would be something along the lines of "the lower existence (is) nothing but (a) draw (of) the illusion"
oh man firefox crashed and i almost lost all of this so consider yourselves lucky
thank god for session restore
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Raj-ah
My Only question to those who say it was not physical is; then why did the leaders among Pharoah's said that "This is no more than a clever magician"
Arnold
Because the verses do not immediately say that,
Say What? They immediately say what I quoted above
107He threw down his staff and it became alive.
108And he drew out his hand, and it became pure white for the onlookers
109The leaders from among the people of Pharaoh said "This is a knowledgeable magician!"Arnold
Your questions are answered here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14219.msg125783#msg125783
I guess you are fond of providing links of your articles/posts without actually raeding them twice. (sorry for that)
but in this particular link you have avoided 7109, why?????Your second link says this
Laws of Nature are Permanent
Law is defined as If.......... then ............ alwaysA ?law? is different from an ?order? ?Law? is based upon its consistency (if you do this, that will ALWAYS happen). ?Order? is a decision. A master issues a variety of orders to his servants. One order may differ in kind from the previous one.
Again not fully comprehending what I wrote
I highly lighted the word "Commonly observed"
meaning to say that LAws of Allah are permanent but When ever we see any deviation from our "commonly" observed
law it seems to us as a Miracle. We even in this scientific era have very limited knowldge of these laws but that does not mean that these laws do not exist, since some of the happenings we cannot explain due to our lack of knowldge seem to us to be a miracle but as soon we learn about the laws according to which the mircale took place it no more is a miracle.Therefore the question at the above remains un answered?
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Sahara does not immediately mean magician, but someone who presents falsehood as truth.
Peace Ra-jah,
I did not avoid 7109, you didn't understood my answer. This is why you must understand Arabic at least a bit to understand the arguments involved.
109 The nobles/chiefs from Pharaoh's nation said "That truly that (is a) knowledgeable alsahiru."
Alsahiru/saharin/alsahara and sihr comes from sahara/sahira and means to gild, fascinate, bewitch, wheedle, turn anyone from enchant, practice sorcery, hoax, involve in trouble, deprive of understanding, fraud, illusion.
Sihr means witchcraft, sorcery, eloquence, seduction, falsehood, deception, turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner, anything the source of which is not quite visible, showing off falsehood in the form of truth, mischief.
So an Al-Sahiru, normally translated as magician, just means "one who presents falsehood as truth". Thus it doesn't need to do anything with 'magic' at all.
This is the traditional translation based on Hadith and thus the Bible
7107He threw down his staff and it became alive.
108And he drew out his hand, and it became pure white for the onlookers
109The leaders from among the people of Pharaoh said "This is a knowledgeable magician!"This is the transliteration of the important words in Arabic and their meanings given
7107 So he falqa his asa, then it became alive.
108 WanazaAAa yadahu fa-itha hiya baydaolilnnathireena
109 The nobles/chiefs from Pharaoh's nation said "That truly that (is a) knowledgeable alsahiru."Yad---baydao means white hand but it also means an argument/proof/conviction that becomes very clear/evident.
Alsahiru/saharin/alsahara and sihr comes from sahara/sahira and means to gild, fascinate, bewitch, wheedle, turn anyone from enchant, practice sorcery, hoax, involve in trouble, deprive of understanding, fraud, illusion.
Sihr means witchcraft, sorcery, eloquence, seduction, falsehood, deception, turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner, anything the source of which is not quite visible, showing off falsehood in the form of truth, mischief.
tulqiya/almulqeena/alqoo/alqaw/alqi comes from the root laqiya and means to meet, meet with, see, come across, experience, occur, undergo, endure, find out a thing, lean upon, receive, come face to face. Here it refers to throw something so the person will undergo/receive/experiences/meets it, this can be anything from an object to a word that is thrown to the opposition. For example jalasa tilqaa fulanun means to sit facing or opposite to. So laqiya always refers to an exchange or meeting of two opposites.
As you can see, the Arabic words which are used have many more meanings then is normally given in this story of Moses and Pharoah. The choice of words is completely determined by blind following of the Biblical story. The true story was distorted by the Hebrews for their urge to the supernatural. The Quran corrects the story and gives the true account. Here is the correct rendition when keeping in line with the fixed Laws of Nature
7107He falqa/presented his asa/argument and it got life .
108And he drew out his yad/strength and conviction, and it became baydao/evident for the onlookers
109The leaders from among the people of Pharaoh said "This is a knowledgeable alsahiru/twister of truth!"You can believe the traditional understanding and say these were just phenomenas we do not understand, but I believe we just have been blindly following the Biblical influence on our understanding without reminding that it is the Quran that is called the Furqan, the Criterion and not the Bible. Also the non-miracle approach gives far more logical and contains a far more important message for guidance then the traditional approach. But this is my understanding.
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peace
so just the translations are influenced by hadith and bible?
not the original qur'an in arabic, right?i guess no miracles thing does make sense. because if they got to see miracles then i wanna see some.
and when i say miracles, you know what i mean, splitting of the see and such.
but as i can see from evolution of thinking, we see miracles every day.The true story was distorted by the Hebrews for their urge to the supernatural.
i was under the impression that qur'an could not be distorted.
is there a qur'an anywhere which wasn't influenced by hadith or bible?
i want to know the original words that came to us. -
Peace all,
For discussions that the "miracles" mentioned in al-qur'aan are literally possible without contradicting any signs of al-qur'aan, please see the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13826.msg126376#msg126376
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13174.0
I have shown in these discussions how some of the relevant signs of al-qur'aan CANNOT have a metaphorical interpretation without causing logical flaws and violating the grammar and arabic sentence structure of the relevant signs. Those signs can only be talking about real and literal "miracles", i.e. "rare phenomenon" governed by as yet unknown laws of nature, as opposed to "commonly observed" phenomenon governed by the known laws of nature.
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peace
so just the translations are influenced by hadith and bible?
not the original qur'an in arabic, right?i guess no miracles thing does make sense. because if they got to see miracles then i wanna see some.
and when i say miracles, you know what i mean, splitting of the see and such.
but as i can see from evolution of thinking, we see miracles every day.i was under the impression that qur'an could not be distorted.
is there a qur'an anywhere which wasn't influenced by hadith or bible?
i want to know the original words that came to us.Peace Nerspi,
The Arabic Quran is not distorted, only by my understanding, it is our approach to the words, their meanings, that is distorted.
For the rest I can only advice to study translations and their commentaries, and learn Arabic as much as possible, and just gain knowledge. In the ned it is your worldview that decides the understanding. The Quran is very flexible, as it is for all time.
And Tanveer,
We have only discussed the story of Mary and Jesus, and we have to disagree on the interpretation, also on the concept of Nature in the Quran we have to disagree on.
But to say you have ' proven' and ' dismissed' all of the interpretations in incorrect. We only discussed the story of Jesus, and I have not made any conclusion on the 100-year death story in my book or posts as far as I know. So you have not proven anything, only shown your interpretation on 2 subjects. Just as I have given my interpretation on several subjects, which cannot be dismissed on grammical or Arabic grounds. Only on what your personal accepts or not.
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Arnold wrote
We have only discussed the story of Mary and Jesus, and we have to disagree on the interpretation, also on the concept of Nature in the Quran we have to disagree on.
So what does this reveal, you keep it moulding the translation as per your satisfaction. We can safely say that Tanveer has refuted your claims.
Arnold
But to say you have ' proven' and ' dismissed' all of the interpretations in incorrect. We only discussed the story of Jesus, and I have not made any conclusion on the 100-year death story in my book or posts as far as I know. So you have not proven anything, only shown your interpretation on 2 subjects. Just as I have given my interpretation on several subjects, which cannot be dismissed on grammical or Arabic grounds. Only on what your personal accepts or not.
Well you are presenting a claim and the burden of proof is on you and not on Tanveer, any how he has put in much better logical arguments.
Your interpretations are mostly of a linguistic/translator and not that of a person who has command over Quran. -
why is the burden of proof on arnold?
i guess it depends more on your own logic than on what he has presented, it seems as though alot of people make up their minds first anyways, and thus accept the "logic" which most matches their own.
Your interpretations are mostly of a linguistic/translator and not that of a person who has command over Quran.
i've seen plenty of translations and interpretations that weren't by linguists and look where those have got us
would anyone really believe in these concepts as they do if that is not what they had been taught from birth?
most are just claiming to reinterpret while trying to preserve their preconceived notions
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why is the burden of proof on arnold?
If we know the ABC of debate we must know that One who presents has to defend!
i've seen plenty of translations and interpretations that weren't by linguists and look where those have got us
You must be selective. This one is no different from the plenty you have read.
Remember the worst way to read or understand Quran is by word to word translation as this is not the way it was revealed.
Don't let these self proclaimed scholars distort the original message of the book of Allah.it seems as though alot of people make up their minds first anyways, and thus accept the "logic" which most matches their own.
Yes you said it right
Arnold and alike impressed by propaganda have made up their minds that Miracles are not possible, even without understanding what Miracle is?, so once decided that No Miracle, they come up with whole new idea of metaphore.... bla bla, and started translating the Quran word to word according to their own predetermined logic. -
Arnold and alike impressed by propaganda have made up their minds that Miracles are not possible, even without understanding what Miracle is?, so once decided that No Miracle, they come up with whole new idea of metaphore.... bla bla, and started translating the Quran word to word according to their own predetermined logic.
Peace,
It shows how little you know. Islamic commentators and scholars going back to 200 years after the Prophet have claimed the same things as I. I'm certainly not the first one and will not be the last. And what do you know about what or how I have researched things?
If you study my work carefully, which you haven't, you will see I always follow the rules of the Quran, which is keeping the whole Quranic Message in mind. That my conclusions differ with the main stream opinion, even with most of the reform movement, is not the criteria. Rarely do I just translate word for word, I combine all verses on the same subject to get an overall idea of the meaning.
You can always disagree, but if you give commentary, then at least base it on something then just your personal worldview and arguments that are even wrong. First study my work better as you clearly haven't. Now you're just making up baseless arguments to create an excuse to dismiss me in an easy way.
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peace
i agree that word for word translation is not really the best way.
now just because arnold presented his view doesn't mean he's distorting the qur'an to fit what he says.
if he is, then we all are, when we say to not follow hadith and we find verses to back up our claims and it makes sense to us not to follow it. now, the sunnis are gonna do the same, and they have, they will find verses in the qur'an to prove that we do need to follow hadith and it makes sense to them to follow it.it appears to me that there are two qur'ans, one influenced by bible and hadith which says miracles did happen and we've listed verses,
and the second qur'an, the same verses, except the meaning is totaly different.first of all, how can we know which verses were distorted?
up until now i didn't mind the miracles thing since it could happen if God decided to do it. but now i hear about these laws that He doesn't break. could, but doesn't. and i thought ok, guess those things didn't happen, something else did, but what?and not far ago i heard this story of a blind woman, she went sky diving, and while falling she heard something pop in her head, when she landed her eye sight came back. now she can see.
but how can that happen, right. when you're blind, you're blind, nothing you can do to fix it. only God can fix it and the way it happened, i would call it a miracle.
but wait, we just said that there are laws that God doesn't break, right, everything goes by these laws, right.so there are either 2 possibilities
- a miracle happened
or - a cure for blindness is jumping from a plane
but if it wasn't a miracle, if it was a law that if you go sky diving you get your eye sight back, then why doesn't every blind person do it?
- a miracle happened
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Peace nerspi,
There were many factors involved when she got her eyesight back. It had also not really to do with the jump itself, the airpressure, adreline and maybe some more factors were only part of the factors that made the cells in her eyes to be activated again.
It is not that simple by saying blind is blind. There are always several factors involved which makes a person blind and also how he can regain his eyesight back. With every person this is different. We just not always know all the factors involved, and the human has still many onknown possibilities as can be seen through bioquantum mechanics. Some people use this as an explanation for what previous generations experienced as miracles, but I believe that with the story of the Quran, more simple answers can be given.