Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?
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peace all,
Samia
Dear Samia; I understood what he was asking but before directly answering him on the verse i was trying to establish that it is only Mecca that fulfills all the Quranic Prophecies and rules laid down in Quran for Hajj, since you and he have not commented on that; therefore I take it for granted that Mecca is the place for HAjj and you agree with it.The question which you have put up is actually on the basis, what I, Ahmed Bahgat and few others at this forum are trying to tell, "Without reading whole Quran and understanding it and just picking up verses and translating it by root method or word to word translation leads us away from Quran and word of Allah, despite bringing us nearer".
The verse says
Nor were you on the slope of the mount when We called. But it is mercy from your Lord, so that you may warn a people who received no warner before you, perhaps they may take heed.Now go to the first verses of this Sura
We recite to you herein some history of Moses and Pharaoh, truthfully, for the benefit of people who believe.
*And certainly We gave Musa the Book after We had destroyed the former generations, clear arguments for men and a guidance and a mercy, that they may be mindful. 2843.
*And you were not on the western side when We revealed to Musa the commandment, and you were not among the witnesses; 2844.
- But We raised up generations, then life became prolonged to them; and you were not dwelling among the people of Madyan, reciting to them Our communications, but We were the senders. 2845.
*And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord THAT YOU MAY WARN A PEOPLE TO WHOM NO WARNER CAME BEFORE YOU, that they may be mindful. 2846.
*And were it not that there should befall them a disaster for what their hands have sent before, then they should say Our Lord! why didst Thou not send to us a messenger so that we should have followed Thy communications and been of the believers ! 2847.
- But (now) when the truth has come to them from Us, they say WHY IS HE NOT GIVEN THE LIKE OF WHAT WAS GIVEN TO MUSA? What! did they not disbelieve in what Musa was given before? They say Two magicians backing up each other; and they say Surely we are unbelievers in all. 2848.
As you can see the YOU in 2846 and the HE in 2847 is not Moses but Mohammad.
And the words ?you were not there? is to indicate that the prophet was informed of the past events by Wahi.
raj-ah Therefore Quran correctly says "So you can warn a people who received no warner before you" (to tell them the story of Moses).
According to your interpretation Warning is just telling the story of Moses confused
Raj-ah-Abraham rebuilt/rennovated the Kaaba that is in Mecca as ordered by Allah, and was inviting the People of Allah to the house of Allah.
For what? did god just ordered him to rebuilt and then get out of there for good, never to return again.
Raj-ah-Now Samia you; Agentxxx or any one else if has any proof regarding Kaaba not been in Mecca and built by Abraham then you should bring it forward and shall not fell prey to Jewish or any other propoganda.
my argument is not that Kaaba is not in Mecca.......its simply who build it...if it was built by IIbrahim then the 2846 has yet to be defined with logic, also the reason for its abandoning by Ibrahim.
peace
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AOA all
Ahmed has already pointed the newest sects ability to ignore the points which they have no answer to anyway will try again.
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Where as the existence of Kaaba in Mecca and Hajj etc has never been even vaguely disputed until your particular brand of Islam came into being in the 21st century.
You analogy here is as illogical as the rest of your conclusions.It is disputed by the clear signs from al-qur'aan which show that the black cuboid idol in Mecca does not meet ANY REQUIREMENTS of "albayt alharaam".
Oh ..... I forgot that for some people evidence of al-qur'aan has no value. They will remain blind to what The God says in al-qur'aan.
You have strange concept of what constitutes an evidence. There has been a lengthy debate regarding the interpertation of the said Quranic verses with no clear agreement and you still insist that your brand of interpertation is solid evidence. Not much to debate unless we go around in circles again.
How can one say that it was never disputed. It is quite plausible that soon after the death of the prophet, the majority of the pagan hypocrites reverted to their pagan ways and crushed the minority of the true Muslims and then destroyed all the evidences of any dispute and covered their tracks.
WOW! At least no one accuse you of not having an imagination. I mean why did they not go the whole way and destroy any existing evidence of Islam. I mean if they were so strong to introduce such a huge corruption and wipe even the slightest trace.
So according to your logic there were no true Muslims left who objected to this ABSOLUTELY MONSTROSITY then why did they simply not finish the whole thing off. Astonishing really.
I am sure you will soon present this as solid evidence.The so called hadeeth was also agreed upon 300 years after the death of Muhammad, just like what happened with Jesus. All the other hadeeth that was not agreed upon, which could possibly have had evidences of the dispute, was rejected by the crooks and destroyed
.I swear I was awaiting for this illogical and ridiculous comparison. Even by your standards this is sinking to depths,
Even the most ardent of hadith followers accept...Bukharis time of collection, methods, inconsistencies etc and the History is very clear. Yet you want to equate this with monumental corruptions you claim which, I REPEAT AGAIN (getting repetitive but you keep ignoring), but zero evidence exists in any form of history, heresay or any other evidence you wish to provide.SINCE YOU HAVE CHANGED TACK I WILL ADD TO MY PREVIOUS QUESTIONS.....SINCE ACCORDING TO YOU THE PAGANS WERE SO POWERFUL THEY CRUSHED ALL THE TRUE BELIEVERS THAT NOT ONE SINGLE WAS ABLE TO LEAVE ANY TRACE OF THIS HUGE CONSPIRACY THEN WHY DID PAGANS NOT COMPLETELY DESTROY ISLAM COMPLETELY AS THERE WAS NO ONE LEFT TO OPPOSE THEM.
regards -
SINCE YOU HAVE CHANGED TACK I WILL ADD TO MY PREVIOUS QUESTIONS.....SINCE ACCORDING TO YOU THE PAGANS WERE SO POWERFUL THEY CRUSHED ALL THE TRUE BELIEVERS THAT NOT ONE SINGLE WAS ABLE TO LEAVE ANY TRACE OF THIS HUGE CONSPIRACY THEN WHY DID PAGANS NOT COMPLETELY DESTROY ISLAM COMPLETELY AS THERE WAS NO ONE LEFT TO OPPOSE THEM.
Salaam brother,
I do not know if there were left any true believers or not but why the enemies of Islam couldn't destroy it completely is because of God's true promise to save His message
159 Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.
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Peace bro Hamsa,
You beat me to it !!! )
There is one more relevant sign
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy.
Believe me, if The God had not protected His message and allowed falsehood to enter it, our fate would have been no different than the followers of Jesus and Moses. At least we know with certainty what the truth is and what the falsehoods are because of the protected message, and can still follow with certainty the straight path and the true examples of the messengers.
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Peace bro Hamsa,
You beat me to it !!! )
There is one more relevant sign
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy.
Believe me, if The God had not protected His message and allowed falsehood to enter it, our fate would have been no different than the followers of Jesus and Moses. At least we know with certainty what the truth is and what the falsehoods are because of the protected message, and can still follow with certainty the straight path and the true examples of the messengers.
Salaam bro Tanveer,
Thanks, and there are countless to reflect. Thanks to God He has saved me from one more Shirk and I pray for others as well.
Thanks )
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Peace all,
Would someone please clarify the following
It seems to me that the following verses are about the people of prophet
2382 They say What! When we are dead and become dust and bones, shall we then be raised?
Only pagans didn't believe in life hereafter, as for I know christians and jews did believe in it.2383 Certainly we are promised this, and (so were) our fathers aforetime; this is naught but stories of those of old.
qstn If no warner came to them before Prophet Mohammed then why did they say that our forefathers were also promised the same?2384 Say Whose is the earth, and whoever is therein, if you know?
2385 They will say, "To Allah!" say "Yet will ye not receive admonition?"
qstn If no warner came to them before prophet Mohammed then how did they know everything belongs to Allah? See also Soorah az-Zukhruf (43) 9, Soorah az-Zukhruf (43) 87 and Soorah al-Ankaboot (29) 63.Read 2385-91 as well.
366 That you may warn a people whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless.
323 Or do they say He has forged it? Nay! it is the truth from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no warner has come before you, that they may follow the right direction.
2846 And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord THAT YOU MAY WARN A PEOPLE TO WHOM NO WARNER CAME BEFORE YOU, that they may be mindful. 2846.
Thanks
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AOA
I do not know if there were left any true believers or not but why the enemies of Islam couldn't destroy it completely is because of God's true promise to save His message
159 Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.
Let me see from a fanciful theory (now it is being quoted as though it is fact-just look at your above statement) that enemies of Islam overwhelmed the true believers and destroyed every thing converted a building in Mecca into the Kaaba. Overnight rewrote the entire Muslim History. Oh yes they were so powerful that only did the destroy the Muslims in their own region but the entire planet so that not a peep could ever come out. Made Hitler seem Like Mother Theresa. Whats even more astonishing that until you Guys now with infinite wisdom and insight into the past no one had even vaguely noticed this event for 1400 years. There is famous saying that common sense is not very common...is amply demonstrated by this site.
I noticed that the comaprison with Hadith and Jesus appear to have been conveniently dropped...As Ahmed seems to have predicted about your very selective use of points when cornered just ignore and raise another completely irrelevant point i.e create enough smoke to hide your beyond fantasy land theories.
Regards
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salaam brother,
Well, I can understand your position, but brother when people did not listen to the prophet how can they listen to you and me? Signs of God couldn't help Pharoah to believe in God, they couldn't help people of Saleh, they couldn't help people of Moses and they still worshiped the idol. And there are many other examples where people failed to see clear signs of God. We can try to convey the messsage only. Rest is upto God and only He can guide, we can only convey.
And honestly, I do not know what happend to the believers, I only know that God has promised to save His Message and that is enough for me.
Thanks for your reply, may God accept our efforts to understand His Message.
Salaam
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Peace brother Hamsa,
2382 They say What! When we are dead and become dust and bones, shall we then be raised?
2383 Certainly we are promised this, and (so were) our fathers aforetime; this is naught but stories of those of old.From the second part of the sign "this is naught but stories of those of old", it is obvious that the first part of the sign "Certainly we are promised this, and (so were) our fathers aforetime" is being said sarcastically, like yeah right yeah
2384 Say Whose is the earth, and whoever is therein, if you know?
2385 They will say, "To Allah/the god !" say "Yet will ye not receive admonition?"The pagans believed in the god but only after setting up partners, like Allat etc. whom they thought were daughters of the god.
12106 And most of them will not believe in God except while setting-up partners.
Even the pagans had a notion of there being THE GOD, but they also set up partners with that god. This notion probably comes from the internal compass that is present in everyone (see 3030).
3030 So establish yourself to the system of monotheism. It is the inclination that God has nurtured the people on. There is no changing in God's creation. Such is the pure system, but most people do not know.
The misunderstanding arises from not translating Allah to its meaning "the god". Please see the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11105.msg106231#msg106231
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Peace bro Tanveer,
Thanks for your reply, however both of my questions are not answered, without a wahy no one can know there is a one Creator THE GOD, not everyone believes in a god so compass doesn't work. For the first question its not showing any sarcasm please read the Arabic text and see the context as well.
Lets see how others interpret it.
Salaam
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Salaam bro Hamsa,
without a wahy no one can know there is a one Creator THE GOD, not everyone believes in a god so compass doesn't work.
The compass works perfectly, it's some people who don't bother to look at it
For the first question its not showing any sarcasm please read the Arabic text and see the context as well.
Do you think that the pagans did not use sarcasm to make fun of the message ? "This is naught but stories of those of old", the THIS/"HAATHA" clearly refers to what was said just before it making it sarcastic.
Sure, let's see what the others have to say about this.
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The compass works perfectly, it's some people who don't bother to look at it
Yes, the pagans bother to look at it and it worked for them. But they bother more than required I think thats why compass broke and they believed in other gods as well. Ah, our compasses ;D
Do you think that the pagans did not use sarcasm to make fun of the message ? "This is naught but stories of those of old", the THIS/"HAATHA" clearly refers to what was said just before it making it sarcastic.
They are accepting that their forefather were also promised the same (but nothing happend), they are denying resurrection and saying these are stories of old because same thing was promised to their forefathers as well, so they are saying that these are same stories actually. So its not a sarcasm in here at all.
Thanks
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Peace bro Tanveer,
Thanks for your reply, however both of my questions are not answered, without a wahy no one can know there is a one Creator THE GOD, not everyone believes in a god so compass doesn't work. For the first question its not showing any sarcasm please read the Arabic text and see the context as well.
Lets see how others interpret it.
Salaam
Salaam Hamsa
Why, without wahy one cannot know there is one God? They do, and did, they may not know a god they can't perceive. Warners usually tell them who God is, not just there is God. People worshiped nature or its components, people, statutes...all this show that the concept of a god could be there. Warners come to clarify and correct this concept. they can even believe in another life (Ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Incas, old Africans religions...).
I do not see any contradictions in these verses.
In fact, my problem is different I do not know how the prophet was sent to people to whom no warner was sent before. This contradicts the fact that he was sent to the whole world whether they had warners before or not.
This could also be the basis of Christians (or at least Copts in our region) who believe that Muhammad was sent to people who did not have a Warner before, but since they have one (or two) they are not concerned. They believe in Muhammad as (our) warner, and Jesus as (their warner).
So, was the prophet sent to people who were warned before or not? Why?
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Salaam Samia
Why, without wahy one cannot know there is one God? They do, and did, they may not know a god they can't perceive. Warners usually tell them who God is, not just there is God. People worshiped nature or its components, people, statutes...all this show that the concept of a god could be there. Warners come to clarify and correct this concept. they can even believe in another life (Ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Incas, old Africans religions...).
So you mean people are born with a raw/wrong concept of god and prophets come to correct it? Also I said THE GOD and not gods. People always believed in gods and prophet came to tell them that there is only one GOD creater of everything and everything belongs to HIM. The people of prophet had the same concept they believed everything belongs to Allah. Also It is very clear in the verse they said, our forefathers are also promised the same.
I do not see any contradictions in these verses.
I am sorry but followers of hadith also see no contradiction in hadith and you know it very well.
In fact, my problem is different I do not know how the prophet was sent to people to whom no warner was sent before. This contradicts the fact that he was sent to the whole world whether they had warners before or not.
This as well.
This could also be the basis of Christians (or at least Copts in our region) who believe that Muhammad was sent to people who did not have a Warner before, but since they have one (or two) they are not concerned. They believe in Muhammad as (our) warner, and Jesus as (their warner).
Does it matter what christian believe?
So, was the prophet sent to people who were warned before or not? Why?
Prophet was sent to everyone, and quran also asks people of the book to believe in quran.
Thanks for your reply.
Salaam
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So you mean people are born with a raw/wrong concept of god and prophets come to correct it? Also I said THE GOD and not gods. People always believed in gods and prophet came to tell them that there is only one GOD creater of everything and everything belongs to HIM. The people of prophet had the same concept they believed everything belongs to Allah. Also It is very clear in the verse they said, our forefathers are also promised the same.
Salaam Hamsa
Well, if you mean if people need "wahy" to believe in God; I would say yes, with exceptions.
I am sorry but followers of hadith also see no contradiction in hadith and you know it very well. This as well.
So, the analogy is that, hadithists think there are no contradictions in hadiths, but there are, and I see there are no contradictions in these verses but there are?
Then that's your problem, not mine. Try to figure out how verses of the qur'aan are contradictory.Does it matter what christian believe?
Did I say it does, or this is what you understood from an example I used to explain what I meant? It seems the example did not work.
Prophet was sent to everyone, and quran also asks people of the book to believe in quran.
So, what about the verses you quoted saying that he was sent to people to whom warners were not sent before?
If you believe he was sent to everyone, and you have no problem with verses you quote, what was your question then?
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In fact, my problem is different I do not know how the prophet was sent to people to whom no warner was sent before. This contradicts the fact that he was sent to the whole world whether they had warners before or not.
So, was the prophet sent to people who were warned before or not? Why?Hello Samia
For the question that is puzzling you, here is my take on it
Let's say today is 1/1/2007, in about 150 years or less from now about 1/1/2150, every single human on earh will be replaced, i.e. all 7 billions (or whatever the number is ) who are living right now in every inch on earth MUST BE DEAD in about 150 years, so the whole earth population will be replaced with no expception to any human, that means the Quran statement is 100% accurate because the last menssenger that was sent to the people was about 500 years prior, so the people who was living at Mohammad time, NEVER EVER RECEIVED A WARNER
Salam
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Then that's your problem, not mine. Try to figure out how verses of the qur'aan are contradictory.
I am trying to undertand them, however haven't seen any satisfying reply. May God help.
Did I say it does, or this is what you understood from an example I used to explain what I meant? It seems the example did not work.
Yes I couldn't get.
So, what about the verses you quoted saying that he was sent to people to whom warners were not sent before?
I dont know.
If you believe he was sent to everyone, and you have no problem with verses you quote, what was your question then?
Yes, I believe prophet was sent to everyone, but what those verses mean I dont know.
salam
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Salaam,
It seems quite logical that the people of prophet actually didn't receive any warner before, but they said 2383 Certainly we are promised this, and (so were) our fathers aforetime;. Unless its not a lie, their forefathers received warners not them, but what about this
366 That you may warn a people whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless.
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Salaam,
It seems quite logical that the people of prophet actually didn't receive any warner before, but they said 2383 Certainly we are promised this, and (so were) our fathers aforetime;. Unless its not a lie, their forefathers received warners not them, but what about this
366 That you may warn a people whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless.
I understand it as "they were warned, but did not listen to the warning, so they were not warned". In Arabic, I do not think there is a verb as "yuntatharu" which would give this meaning, so the same verb is used for the passive and the participle.
The verses that follow made me think of this understanding367 they deserved the punishment as they do not believe.We put around their necks iron collars reaching to the chins....
Then there is the example (3613) of the man who advised his people to accept what the messengers came to tell them....
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Salaam
I understand it as "they were warned, but did not listen to the warning, so they were not warned". In Arabic, I do not think there is a verb as "yuntatharu" which would give this meaning, so the same verb is used for the passive and the participle.
The verses that follow made me think of this understanding367 they deserved the punishment as they do not believe.We put around their necks iron collars reaching to the chins....
Then there is the example (3613) of the man who advised his people to accept what the messengers came to tell them....
Why dont you take literal meanings? I am thinking how can I udnerstand these verses if I take literal meanigns and dont look at history of hadith and without adding my own words?.....
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Peaple of prophet didn't receive any warner before him. 2846, 323
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Their forefathers also didn't receive any warner. 366
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People of prophet said, their forefathers received the same promise. 2383 (if they are not lying I dont know)
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They already believed in Allah as creator and Lord of everything in the earth and heavens. az-Zukhruf (43) 9, Soorah az-Zukhruf (43) 87 and Soorah al-Ankaboot (29) 63. 2385-91
May God guide.
Thanks
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