Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?
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Peace all,
Thank you brother Zeljko for the explanation.
In Arabic language, proper names are not capitalized. So how can one differentiate a common noun from a proper name ? If the meaning of the word fits in the context, then it cannot be a proper name.
Any word whose meaning makes sense in the context MUST be understood as a common noun. On the other hand, proper names are meaningless labels that don't reflect the truth about what is being described. For example, when talking about the administrator of this website, Layth is a proper name. However, if I say ""lyth" is the king of the jungle and he preys on weaker animals" then this is most likely a common noun meaning "lion".
The common NOUN meaning of "makka" as "destruction/wearing down/insistence on the adversary" fits perfectly in the context of 4824. Hence it cannot be a proper name. The pagan hypocrites hijacked this common noun from al-qur'aan and renamed one of their towns containing their pagan shrine to match this common noun some time after the death of the Prophet. The fact that the common noun "makka" fits in the passage in al-qur'aan is enough proof that present day Mecca is a fraud.
Following is the translation of 4824 using Classical Arabic dictionaries and the context of war to translate the word "makkat"
- And it is He who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction/wearing down after that He gave you the victory over them. And The God sees all that you do.
Please see the following for details about "makka"
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9281.0
The building named as Masjid Al-Aqsa is a similar example. It was built by the Umayyads at the end of the 7th century, many years after the death of the Prophet and hence even the staunchest of sectarians are forced to admit that it cannot be "al-masjid al-aqsa" mentioned in al-qur'aan.
From archeological evidence, we have many examples of approximate stone cubes whose height is larger than the other dimensions (like the so-called Kaaba) bearing the name Dhu Al-Shaara and not the alleged name Kaaba. This confirms that, like the other stone cubes found elsewhere, the black stone cube in what is presently called Mecca was named Dhu Al-Shaara and not Kaaba.
The name was changed from Dhu Al-Shaara to Kaaba to match the common noun "kaaba" (base) in al-qur'aan. This way, the pagan practice of spinning seven times could be resumed while pretending to be following al-qur'aan.
The fact is that we know from archeological evidence that the Nabataeans celebrated the festival of the birth of Dhu Al-Shaara. We have manuscripts of letters written by Epiphanius the bishop of Salamis, Cyprus in the 4th century AD describing cults with mother-gods such as the Egyptian, Greek, and Nabataean cults. It is interesting that he described the birth celebrations of Dhu Al-Shaara as culminating with circumambulation seven times around the inner sanctuary of the pagan temple. For example please see Langdon, S., Semitic Mythology, The Mythology of All Races, Vol. V. Boston Archaeological Institute of America, Marshall Jones Company, 1931.
Pagan is as pagan does.
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Peace Warner,
There is an indirect connection. The "kaaba"/base is "albayt alharaam" (597). "Al-masjid al-haraam" is the inviolable institution of obedience to The God's laws and the physical building for that institution is "albayt alharaam" (see 2196, 597, 919, 4825).
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AOA
4824And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of Mecca, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do."Mekka" in verse 4824 should be translated as "destruction" or a "wearing down"..Ayman In the classical Arabic dictionaries, the word "maka(t)" mainly means "destruction/wearing down", among other meanings. It is listed in classical Arabic dictionaries under either MKK or MK.
So lets replace with other alleged meaning(s)
And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of destruction, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.
Or
And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of wearing down, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.
I know, its difficult to read stuff that doesn't agree with one's "father's beliefs" but, trust me, its better than looking like a fool.
Hands against them in the interior wearing down...DOES NOT AT ALL SOUND STUPID OR FOOLISH DOES IT.
regards -
Salaam stillearning
The problem with the translation you provide is the word (interior) which is not the equivalent of the Arabic word " ba6n", literally, "belly" front. It is usually used in opposition to " Dhahr back". This is not the word used for "cities/towns/...In Arabic you do not say biba6n almadeena if you want (inside/in the interior). In fact "qalb" which is literally heart, is used with towns to mean "city center".
biba6n is more logical to mean confront/confrontation than interior.
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Salaam bro,
Hands against them in the interior wearing down...DOES NOT AT ALL SOUND STUPID OR FOOLISH DOES IT.
hehehe....hold your horses bro.... need to see every word!
And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of destruction, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.
You are very close, the word you didn't tranlate is "bi batni". I think makkata=destruction does fit in the context, I have seen the lexicon for "batni" and found many meanings, I dont know which one fits the best here. Lets see anyone could help me here.
4824
Transliteration Wahuwa allathee kaffa aydiyahum AAankum waaydiyakum AAanhum bibatni makkata min baAAdi an athfarakum AAalayhim wakana Allahu bima taAAmaloona baseeran
Salaam
Thanks sis, It does make sense. I was writing while you relplied...hehehe
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Salaam Samia
I am not an Arab or an Arab sholar and did not provide the translation but was using the means provided by those who claim Mecca does not mean Mecca. When any one with any semblance of an intelligence can see that the verse is referring to a place called Mecca. But then why accept the obvious when the ridiculous is will do.
off course when dealing with a potential candidate for dental surgery such as yourself
I might a potential candidate but. If the intelligence you have shown so far is reflected in the rest of your life then no doubt you are on first name terms with your dental surgeon.
Salaam Rasulhamsa
Bro all I ask is keep read the posts with an open mind that you have displayed so far. Please dont be seduced by those who think being intelligent is to be simply different no matter how ridiculous. Just read the posts and see how often the new sectist make statements without any evidence and then simply refuse to readdress the point. Take care.
regards -
peace stillearning
only one verse in quran refers to mecca (4824) and the word could very well mean destruction.
another verse (3.96) refers to becca, and everyone says its mecca. Bizarre argument of those saying that no falsehood enters quran. But valid for the 19ers, as there code relating to the occurence of "b" fits ...i am not an arab either, nor an arab scholar, but i might consider myself more of a "stillearning" than you seem to do when you say
When any one with any semblance of an intelligence can see that the verse is referring to a place called Mecca.
or how can you be so sure ?lk
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Rajah wrote
As Abraham raised the foundations of the shrine, together with Ismail (they prayed) "Our Lord, accept this from us. You are the Hearer, the Omniscient
"Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy, and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.Is this Prayer of Abraham and Ismail still unanswered??
If these prayers are been answered then KAABA in MECCA is the Place and Surely Abraham and ISmail have built it.TAnveer's Translation
2127 And as Ibraheem raised the foundations FROM/MIN the house with Ismaeel "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."
Ok even if we take your translation still the question remains the same, combining it with second verse
"Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy, and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful
My question was, is this prayer of Abraham and Ismail been answered??
Tanveer
There is ZERO evidence of existence of a town in Arabia called Mecca prior to the 8th century CE.TAnveer
There is ZERO evidence of existence of a town called Mecca or the so called Kaaba during the time of revelation of al-qur'aan.I am clearly understanding your agenda, but will not allow you to make fool of innocent youngsters
Infact it is you who has no evidence for your arguments and I have presented to you many and am going to present it to you again
Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia.
And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians
It is interesting to know that Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria, mathematician and astronomer, flourishing about a century after Pliny, undertook to make an atlas of the habitable world. He was not a descriptive geographer, and his book was intended to be no more than a commentary on his maps. He enumerated some hundred and fourteen cities or villages in Arabia Felix.
For example, Dumaetha, placed by Ptolemy just outside the northern boundary of Arabia Felix, must be the mediaeval Arabian Daumet, which is today the chief village of the great oasis of Jauf. Hejr, famous in the "times of ignorance" as the seat of a kingdom, and now Medayin Salih, is Ptolemy's Egra. His Thaim is Teima, now known for its inscriptions to have had temples and some sort of civilization as far back as 500 BC. It is the Tema of Job. In Lathrippa, placed inland from Iambia (Yambo), we recognize the Iathrippa of Stephan of Byzantium, the Yathrib of the early Arab traditions, now honoured as El Medina, the City of Cities.
G E von Grunebaum says
Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary
Besides these, Francis Peter Edwards has also mentioned in his writings the existense of Mecca as a holy place before Muhammad's time.
You have been proven wrong!
Similarly in the pre-islamic poetry there is also mention of the city.
Dr. Ahmed Shafaat in his article " Hajj; Piligrimage to Makkah" notes
- In ancient Arabic dialects the sounds "b" and "m" were interchangeable, so that Makkah was also sometimes called Bakkah. The Qur'an uses here the archaic Bakkah instead of the more usual Makkah in order to emphasize the very ancient character of the city.
The interpretation of the valley of Baca as a "the valley of weeping" makes sense because of the distress which Hagar(P) underwent when she was left with Ishmael(P) in the barren desert with no means of living.
The two interpretations of Baca, viz., "lack of stream" and "the valley of weeping" appears to fit in the context of pilgrimage to Bakkah, the older name of Makkah where the Ka'bah is situated. Ka'bah has been a place of reverence by all Arabians before the Christian era as we have seen earlier.
So what do you say?
As usual "this is hearsay" Ok if it is why don't you answer as stilllearner has been asking from you since long?
- Where is the Bayt located mentioned in Quran?
- What is your proof for it?
Although this is a useless and fruitless debate going on but still it is our duty to tell the truth.
Actually your argument is so senseless and childish that just to spend time and effort seems useless.
May be if One on One Thread could be started you or those against you could be exposed within few posts, If you will, I can present myself, if you think i am not good enough you can choose AhmadBahgat if he has time and is willing that will be interesting. -
But then why accept the obvious when the ridiculous is will do.
Salaam SL
The obvious is the meaning known for "ba6n" and its usage. The rediculous is to put a meaning and a usage that does not exist, just to make it fit with a preconception. If you do not know Arabic, this is not an excuse. Search dictionaries...Hans Wehr, and even better, Lane's Lexicon.
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For example, Dumaetha, placed by Ptolemy just outside the northern boundary of Arabia Felix, must be the mediaeval Arabian Daumet, which is today the chief village of the great oasis of Jauf. Hejr, famous in the "times of ignorance" as the seat of a kingdom, and now Medayin Salih, is Ptolemy's Egra. His Thaim is Teima, now known for its inscriptions to have had temples and some sort of civilization as far back as 500 BC. It is the Tema of Job. In Lathrippa, placed inland from Iambia (Yambo), we recognize the Iathrippa of Stephan of Byzantium, the Yathrib of the early Arab traditions, now honoured as El Medina, the City of Cities.
G E von Grunebaum says
Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary
What was the name given by Ptolemy for "Mecca" ?
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What was the name given by Ptolemy for "Mecca" ?
May be it was skipped from Raavi's mind.
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Rajah, can I see your sources please? I see citations but no references? I'd love to read them.
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AOA
Alas, you thought that the messenger and the believers would not return to their families, and this was deemed pleasant in your hearts, and you thought the worst thoughts; you were a wicked people.
4813 Anyone who does not believe in God and His messenger, then We have prepared for the rejecters a Hellfire.
4814 And to God is the sovereignty of the heavens and the Earth. He forgives whomever He wills, and punishes whomever He wills. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
4815 Those who lagged behind will say, when you venture out to collect the spoils "Let us follow you!" They want to change God's words. Say "You will not follow us; this is what God has decreed beforehand." They will then say "No, you are envious of us." Alas, they rarely understood anything.
4816 Say to those Nomads who lagged behind "You will be called on to fight a people who are very powerful in warfare, unless they surrender. Then if you obey, God will grant you a good reward, but if you turn away as you turned away before, He will punish you with a painful retribution."
4817 There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there on the sick any burden. And whosoever obeys God and His messenger, He will admit them into paradises with rivers flowing beneath; and whosoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution.
4818 God is pleased with the believers who pledged allegiance to you under the tree. He thus knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquility upon them, and rewarded them with a near victory.
4819 And abundant spoils that they will take. God is Noble, Wise.
4820 God has promised you abundant spoils that you will take. Thus He has hastened this for you, and He has withheld the people's hands against you; that it may be a sign for the believers, and that He may guide you to a straight path.
4821 And the other group which you could not vanquish, God took care of them. And God was capable of all things.
4822 And if the rejecters had fought you, they would have turned and ran, then they would have found neither an ally nor a victor.
4823 Such is God's way with those who have passed away before, and you will not find any change in God's way.
4824 And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of Mecca, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.
4825 They are the ones who rejected and barred you from the Restricted Temple, and barred your donations from reaching their destination. And there had been believing men and women whom you did not know, and you may have hurt them, and on whose account you would have committed a sin unknowingly. God will admit into His mercy whomever He wills. Had they become separated, We would then have punished those of them who rejected with a painful retribution.The preceding and afterr verses, to me it appears that Mecca here is referring to Mecca.
AOA samia
The rediculous is to put a meaning and a usage that does not exist, just to make it fit with a preconception
I am sorry I did not put any meaning to the word Mecca, I thought you and the others did. I actually left it as Mecca i.e the Quran here is referring to a place known as Mecca and it is interesting that the founders of this new sect (who do not believe Mohd and Mecca have any connection) happily translated Mecca = Mecca. However as it now does not quite fit in with their new found faith it has suddenly acquired a meaninig rather than being a place.
AOA Elke.
I am sure because it is the truth. It is written in the Quran as Mecca & every one for over 1400yrs has accepted it as such, even by those who have just discovered that their whole wishy washy theories go of in a puff of smoke if they now accept Mecca as being Mecca.
regards -
AOA samia
I am sorry I did not put any meaning to the word Mecca, I thought you and the others did. I actually left it as Mecca i.e the Quran here is referring to a place known as Mecca and it is interesting that the founders of this new sect (who do not believe Mohd and Mecca have any connection) happily translated Mecca = Mecca. However as it now does not quite fit in with their new found faith it has suddenly acquired a meaninig rather than being a place.
Salaam SL
I think you did not get what I was talking about. If we are not sure of the meaning of a word, we should, from the context, understand what it is in general. If the context is " you are before X or confronting X or amidst X", X is definitely not a town. If we want to force X to be a town, we can then manpiulate the context and claim that "before, confront, amidst" actually mean (in the interior of), then we can falsely classify Mecca as a town. Fortunately we have the original in a labguage is still alive, and the word "ba6n" still in usage. No one writes "biba6n Cairo), for example, and claims that he is writing Arabic to mean (in the interior of Cairo).
What does (in the interior of Mecca) mean anyway? If this is bad English, it is also bad Arabic. Why not just (in Mecca)?
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Peace all,
Thank you brother Zeljko for the explanation.
In Arabic language, proper names are not capitalized. So how can one differentiate a common noun from a proper name ? If the meaning of the word fits in the context, then it cannot be a proper name.
Any word whose meaning makes sense in the context MUST be understood as a common noun. On the other hand, proper names are meaningless labels that don't reflect the truth about what is being described. For example, when talking about the administrator of this website, Layth is a proper name. However, if I say ""lyth" is the king of the jungle and he preys on weaker animals" then this is most likely a common noun meaning "lion".
The common NOUN meaning of "makka" as "destruction/wearing down/insistence on the adversary" fits perfectly in the context of 4824. Hence it cannot be a proper name. The pagan hypocrites hijacked this common noun from al-qur'aan and renamed one of their towns containing their pagan shrine to match this common noun some time after the death of the Prophet. The fact that the common noun "makka" fits in the passage in al-qur'aan is enough proof that present day Mecca is a fraud.
Does this apply to the reference to Muhammad in the Torah?
Specifically
In the song of songs, chapter 5,Verse 16,we read
...
Which means ? His speech is the most pleasant. He is the Great Muhammad, this is my beloved, and this my friend.? -
AOA Samia
I am sure you have an excellent grasp of Arabic grammar etc, Just curious why the obvious grammatic error has escaped all previous translators.
What does (in the interior of Mecca) mean anyway? If this is bad English, it is also bad Arabic. Why not just (in Mecca)?
Interior of Mecca to me means inside of Mecca. Interior of Destruction does that make more sense than Interior of Mecca.
Anyhow Samia if you feel that Mecca never existed and that the entire Muslim history is a myth then that is your progative.
regards -
AOA Samia
I am sure you have an excellent grasp of Arabic grammar etc, Just curious why the obvious grammatic error has escaped all previous translators.
Interior of Mecca to me means inside of Mecca. Interior of Destruction does that make more sense than Interior of Mecca.
Anyhow Samia if you feel that Mecca never existed and that the entire Muslim history is a myth then that is your progative.
regardsSalaam SL
Is my English that bad you do not understand me? I am contesting the translation of bi-ba6ni makka, because BI-BA6N DOES NOT MEAN INTERIOR OF. And it is not grammar. It is semantics; that's why I asked you to use a dictionary.
You ask me how such error escaped all scholars? How do you know it did not escape others? Even today, do you think I can correct this, publish it and get away with it? Look at the many thinkers (just in Egypt, in the 20th century untill now) who have been declared kafirs, or even murdered, for much more trivial things. Fear is, and was used to silence people. If not for the internet, I swear many of those who are reading this thread would never have heard of many mistakes and errors in the interpretation of the qur'aan. Other than fear, following blindly, which is, unfortunately, a characteristics of people ruled by tyranny and oppression. And the mother of factors is ignorance.
Take a simple case of the interpretation of "nasakha" to mean "abrogate". If I hand a document to someone who believes inthis interpretation and ask him/her to (nasakha) this document, they will go copy it without hesitation. Yet, when a mulla tells them that it mearns abrogate, they will accept blindly. In spite of that, the scholar , Muslim, opposed categorically this interpretation. Have you heard of that? So, wrong understandings do not escape the intelligent ones. It is just the public are not informed.
Why, then, was the door of "ijtihad" closed for 1000 years if there were no scholars who do not accept everything and question everything?
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Salaam SL
Is my English that bad you do not understand me? I am contesting the translation of bi-ba6ni makka, because BI-BA6N DOES NOT MEAN INTERIOR OF. And it is not grammar. It is semantics; that's why I asked you to use a dictionary.
You ask me how such error escaped all scholars? How do you know it did not escape others? Even today, do you think I can correct this, publish it and get away with it? Look at the many thinkers (just in Egypt, in the 20th century untill now) who have been declared kafirs, or even murdered, for much more trivial things. Fear is, and was used to silence people. If not for the internet, I swear many of those who are reading this thread would never have heard of many mistakes and errors in the interpretation of the qur'aan. Other than fear, following blindly, which is, unfortunately, a characteristics of people ruled by tyranny and oppression. And the mother of factors is ignorance.
Take a simple case of the interpretation of "nasakha" to mean "abrogate". If I hand a document to someone who believes inthis interpretation and ask him/her to (nasakha) this document, they will go copy it without hesitation. Yet, when a mulla tells them that it mearns abrogate, they will accept blindly. In spite of that, the scholar , Muslim, opposed categorically this interpretation. Have you heard of that? So, wrong understandings do not escape the intelligent ones. It is just the public are not informed.
Why, then, was the door of "ijtihad" closed for 1000 years if there were no scholars who do not accept everything and question everything?
Very true and enlightening indeed. I my self have learned a lots of new things about the quran from this forum. May God help us all.
Thanks
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Peace all,
Those who love the filthy pagan idols will make any excuse to continue to worship them, even if it involves twisting and mistranslating the words of The God. For example, some translate "biba6n" as "in the interior of" when it CANNOT mean that as sister Samia has shown. In the context of 4824, "biba6ni makkat" clearly means IN THE MIDST OF DESTRUCTION/WEARING DOWN.
My previous post in which I also provided the translation of 4824 along with the Classical Arabic dictionary references for the meaning of "makka" has been conveniently ignored. I will post it again
In Arabic language, proper names are not capitalized. So how can one differentiate a common noun from a proper name ? If the meaning of the word fits in the context, then it cannot be a proper name.
Any word whose meaning makes sense in the context MUST be understood as a common noun. On the other hand, proper names are meaningless labels that don't reflect the truth about what is being described. For example, when talking about the administrator of this website, Layth is a proper name. However, if I say ""lyth" is the king of the jungle and he preys on weaker animals" then this is most likely a common noun meaning "lion".
The common NOUN meaning of "makka" as "destruction/wearing down/insistence on the adversary" fits perfectly in the context of 4824. Hence it cannot be a proper name. The pagan hypocrites hijacked this common noun from al-qur'aan and renamed one of their towns containing their pagan shrine to match this common noun some time after the death of the Prophet. The fact that the common noun "makka" fits in the passage in al-qur'aan is enough proof that present day Mecca is a fraud.
Following is the translation of 4824 using Classical Arabic dictionaries and the context of war to translate the word "makkat"
- And it is He who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction/wearing down after that He gave you the victory over them. And The God sees all that you do.
Please see the following for Classical Arabic dictionary refernces for the meaning of "makka"
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9281.0
The building named as Masjid Al-Aqsa is a similar example. It was built by the Umayyads at the end of the 7th century, many years after the death of the Prophet and hence even the staunchest of sectarians are forced to admit that it cannot be "al-masjid al-aqsa" mentioned in al-qur'aan.
From archeological evidence, we have many examples of approximate stone cubes whose height is larger than the other dimensions (like the so-called Kaaba) bearing the name Dhu Al-Shaara and not the alleged name Kaaba. This confirms that, like the other stone cubes found elsewhere, the black stone cube in what is presently called Mecca was named Dhu Al-Shaara and not Kaaba.
The name was changed from Dhu Al-Shaara to Kaaba to match the common noun "kaaba" (base) in al-qur'aan. This way, the pagan practice of spinning seven times could be resumed while pretending to be following al-qur'aan.
The fact is that we know from archeological evidence that the Nabataeans celebrated the festival of the birth of Dhu Al-Shaara. We have manuscripts of letters written by Epiphanius the bishop of Salamis, Cyprus in the 4th century AD describing cults with mother-gods such as the Egyptian, Greek, and Nabataean cults. It is interesting that he described the birth celebrations of Dhu Al-Shaara as culminating with circumambulation seven times around the inner sanctuary of the pagan temple. For example please see Langdon, S., Semitic Mythology, The Mythology of All Races, Vol. V. Boston Archaeological Institute of America, Marshall Jones Company, 1931.
Pagan is as pagan does.