Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?

Raj-ah

Dear OPF

the verses you just brought as a proof for your argument or aymans argument are actually telling another story. One of the problem with Quran Alone persons is that they pick up some verses and start building whole building of ideas on it, without studying the Quran as a whole.

The verses are from Surah "Toaba" the surah talks about City "MADINA" therefore it is certain that the SUrah was revealed in MAdina and not at MAkkah. The Surah is talking about Mushrakeens, Munafeqeens, and Kuffar. In this Surah I have seen the anger of Allah displayed not like in any other Surah. Actually Allah is showing his anger over some who did not accompanied Muhammad on a War, Physically and Financially, (This further confirms that this Surah is revealed in Madina as there was no war before migrating), and those who have built a Mosque in Madina, but there are minds are not yet Muslim, they are actually inclined towards Shirk.
The connection you are trying to built between these ayats and the "Bayt" in Makkah is not there.

Let us see
And there are those who put up a mosque by way of mischief and infidelity - to disunite the Believers - and in preparation for one who warred against Allah and His Messenger aforetime. They will indeed swear that their intention is nothing but good; But Allah doth declare that they are certainly liars.

So some people build a mosque in Madina but their intentions are not good,
a) they want to disunite the Believers
See how Allah looks at some who is trying to disunite Muslims? What about those who say Build where ever you want;ANYWHERE further disuniting Muslims.
b) they want to use that very Mosque, as a conspiracy place for some one who has warred against Allah and his Messanger afore time.
Here Allah is telling Prophet to take caution against these Munafeqeens.

Never stand thou forth therein. There is a mosque whose foundation was laid from the first day on piety; it is more worthy of the standing forth (for prayer) therein. In it are men who love to be purified; and God loveth those who make themselves pure

a) Allah warns the Prophet not to satnd in that Mosque which is built in Madina becuase of following
i) It is to disunite Muslims
ii) It will be used as conspiracy against the Prophet and Allah
iii) Infidelity
b) Instead Allah tells that the A masjid that is established on the basis of righteousness from the first day is more worthy of your praying therein. In it, there are people who love to be purified. GOD loves those who purify themselves.
If we look within the context of whole Surah; I think Allah is refering to Masjid-i-Nabvi here which is in Madina, which is established from the first day on the basis of righteosness.

Which then is best? - he that layeth his foundation on piety to God and His good pleasure? - or he that layeth his foundation on an undermined sand-cliff ready to crumble to pieces? and it doth crumble to pieces with him, into the fire of Hell. And God guideth not people that do wrong.

Allah tells us that the Masjid built by Prophet is best, when both are compared.
What important here is that Allah compares two "Mosques", and not "Bayt" with Mosque.

Try to read it with this point of view.
Hope You will understand; nice try though.
Therefore these Ayats in have nothing to do with the "Bayt" located in Makkah.

Do Jews and Christians run around a black cube and kiss stones in Mecca?

I have discussed this in detail in previous posts.

unknownuser

From my meager knowledge of Arabic, I can at least know that Al-Madinah can also be "The City", literally. Now, Madinah was changed to the name "Madinah" in 630 (if we trust the Islamic sources, which I don't but playing devils advocate...) - http//lexicorient.com/e.o/madina.htm. The name only was changed from Yathrib or Lathrippa at that time. Prior to that, "Medinatun Nabi" was the nickname for it. How can you actually say that "The Quran is referring to a nickname of a city the prophet is residing in" when there is already a widely established common noun in place? Where else in the Quran does God suddenly directly reference a city? I see tribes like Sodom being referred to, but their cities? No.

Now, using common sense

009.101
YUSUFALI Certain of the desert Arabs round about you are hypocrites, as well as (desert Arabs) among the Medina folk they are obstinate in hypocrisy thou knowest them not We know them twice shall We punish them and in addition shall they be sent to a grievous penalty.

The verse is quite clear. It's a contrast between the desert Arabs in the... desert, and the desert Arabs in the city. Why change the meaning of "medina" from "city" to "Medina", something that according to Islamic history happened in the last 2 years of the prophet's death? According to Islamic history, in this period, he was supposed to be lying at home in bed ailing from a Jewish woman's cursed sheep. Now, that's what I call commandeering an army.

So some people build a mosque in Madina but their intentions are not good,
a) they want to disunite the Believers
See how Allah looks at some who is trying to disunite Muslims? What about those who say Build where ever you want;ANYWHERE further disuniting Muslims.
b) they want to use that very Mosque, as a conspiracy place for some one who has warred against Allah and his Messanger afore time.
Here Allah is telling Prophet to take caution against these Munafeqeens.

When you build a physical house, that automatically creates a rift between those who wish to take the verses at face value, and those who wish to take the verses according to hadith. If you don't, this verse simply becomes an example, or a parable. If you do, it's effectively an executive order - do not stand in that mosque.

Onto the next part - 9109. I'm not sure what verse you are reading, but that verse is comparing foundations, not mosques. It is contrasting a mental/spiritual foundation to a physical foundation, albeit a shaky one. Last I checked, my house's foundations are of bricks and mortar - not "piety". If my house was built on "piety", I would be killed by "gravity". This of course, clicks neatly into place when we observe that Abraham rased the foundations of this house mentally - with a prayer.

002.126
YUSUFALI And remember Abraham said "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"
PICKTHAL And when Abraham prayed My Lord! Make this a region of security and bestow upon its people fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day, He answered As for him who disbelieveth, I shall leave him in contentment for a while, then I shall compel him to the doom of Fire - a hapless journey's end!
SHAKIR And when Ibrahim said My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day. He said And whoever disbelieves, I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination.

002.127
YUSUFALI And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer) "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.
PICKTHAL And when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the House, (Abraham prayed) Our Lord! Accept from us (this duty). Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Hearer, the Knower.
SHAKIR And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing

002.128
YUSUFALI "Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL Our Lord! And make us submissive unto Thee and of our seed a nation submissive unto Thee, and show us our ways of worship, and relent toward us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Relenting, the Merciful.
SHAKIR Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

Click, click, click. Foundations raised, from what? Piety.

Try to read it with this point of view.

Oh, I have, and I did, until I realised it was based on foundations on an undermined sand-cliff, ready to crumble to pieces. It almost crumbled into peces taking me down with it, but I was guided )

And of course, the verses have nothing to do with Makka - you are 100% correct on there. The verses address any medina, any city )

Samia

So some people build a mosque in Madina but their intentions are not good,

Salaam Rajah

Do you know of any mosque built in "Medina" during the life of the Prophet other than his mosque?

Raj-ah

...... Where else in the Quran does God suddenly directly reference a city? I see tribes like Sodom being referred to, but their cities? No.

I can understand what you are saying, but that is expected from those who realy donot study history, or REad Quran verse by verse through root method.
Ignorance is no excuse I think.

Al-Quran
Have you not considered how your Lord dealt with Ad, (The people of) Iruma, possessors of lofty buildings

I just do not want to be hard on you, but please take care when you assert some thing from Quran.

SAMIA

Salaam Rajah

Do you know of any mosque built in "Medina" during the life of the Prophet other than his mosque?

I was missing you. Thanks for posting.

Yes! at least two

One the Mosque Zarar, which is talked about in the verse and Mosque Qubaa.

Samia

SAMIA
I was missing you. Thanks for posting.

Yes! at least two

One the Mosque Zarar, which is talked about in the verse and Mosque Qubaa.

I am flattered

What mosque "qubba"? Is it also mentioned in the qur'aan?
How do you know about them? It seems that I am quite ignorant about some "facts". I mean, I honestly never heard of them before. Blame it again on our education system ;D

Raj-ah

Samia

What mosque "qubba"? Is it also mentioned in the qur'aan?
How do you know about them? It seems that I am quite ignorant about some "facts". I mean, I honestly never heard of them before. Blame it again on our education system

I can understand the taunt hidden in your post! but that is OK, as you are Quran "ALONE".

See dear

Quran does not mention NEw York, neither Green Land, Nor Argentina
It also doesnot mention Mount Everest, it does not mention Mount Fuji
Quran doesnot mention Caleopetra, and many others by name

Quran doesnot mention many things which are in fact there, but they actually exist.
Why we call the Cults narrow minded ? this is the prime reason.

You like many ignorants of Quran Alone sect think that "Allah" shared with some Arabs of the Muhammad's time a consipiracy against "Allah".

"Allah" by purpose used the words/names "MakKATA" "MAdina" "Arafat" "Mazdalfah" "SAfa" "MArwa" "Ummahtul Wst" "ze zarh" and many others on purpose so that the later Arabs can build a whole new "BAYT" and Religon of their own basing on these hints provided.

Now offcourse it is not impossible to bring these kind of thinkers back to Islam but you can see how difficult it is.

warner

Salaam Rajah

My statements you quoted are not mutually exclusive. Also you can add the following statement to the list

?I thank Allah for giving me the strength to make sincere effort to choose fact from fiction, truth from false hood and also I thank my Lord for giving me the strength to be strong enough to question hearsay and established ideas and practices and not to follow them blindly even though the majority supports it.?

C?mon Rajah, this is unforgivably stupid even by your standards. You have not answered any of my questions in all the previous posts but you have started making faces at me as a last resort.

About reading other literature on a subject specifically on the Quran I do oppose that someone should not read or gain knowledge from other sources. I reject when someone tries to establish an explanation on the Quraan based purely on an outside source. For instance when you say Mecca is Bakka since according to Britannica it is such. God does not rely on Britannica to explain what He did not explain in His book.

I have not used the articles I posted as a support for any view. The articles raise questions and highlights contradictions.

I suggest you answer the contradiction highlighted by me and in the articles without being evasive.

Samia

Samia
I can understand the taunt hidden in your post! but that is OK, as you are Quran "ALONE".

See dear

Quran does not mention NEw York, neither Green Land, Nor Argentina
It also doesnot mention Mount Everest, it does not mention Mount Fuji
Quran doesnot mention Caleopetra, and many others by name

Quran doesnot mention many things which are in fact there, but they actually exist.
Why we call the Cults narrow minded ? this is the prime reason.

Even though I said honestly I never heard of them?
With the anology you draw for this mosque and the three above examples, I understand that it is eiter actually there so I may visit it and see it, or there is archeological evidence that proves its existence; did I correctly understand you?

You like many ignorants of Quran Alone sect think that "Allah" shared with some Arabs of the Muhammad's time a consipiracy against "Allah".

How is this related to my question? And what does it mean anyway?

unknownuser

I can understand what you are saying, but that is expected from those who realy donot study history, or REad Quran verse by verse through root method.
Ignorance is no excuse I think.

Al-Quran
Have you not considered how your Lord dealt with Ad, (The people of) Iruma, possessors of lofty buildings

I just do not want to be hard on you, but please take care when you assert some thing from Quran.

Thanks, I actually just googled "Iram" and found this

Studies since the early 1990's, mainly led by Juris Zarins, the archeologist that was part of Clapp's original team, indicate that Ubar refers to a region and a group of people, not to a specific town. Ptolomy's second century map of the area clearly labels "Iobaritae". There was a tribal group of people, the Iobaritae or the Ubarites, who lived in the area, and the Shisur site is one of probably three or four major centers from that period. Whether it is Ubar or not is irrelevant from that perspective as it was clearly a key site along the incense caravan route at the edge of the great Empty Quarter.

So any other direct references to cities?

Allah-ho Akbar! )

Jafar

"Allah" by purpose used the words/names "MakKATA" "MAdina" "Arafat" "Mazdalfah" "SAfa" "MArwa" "Ummahtul Wst" "ze zarh" and many others on purpose so that the later Arabs can build a whole new "BAYT" and Religon of their own basing on these hints provided.

Allah commanded "A NEW RELIGION" built by THE ARABS for THE ARABS????

The Quran disagree with you brother..

"He decreed for you the same religion (ArabicDien) decreed for Noah, and what we inspired to you, and what we decreed for Abraham, Jesus and Moses You shall uphold this religion (ArabicDien) do not divide it."
4213

Although you do admit that this BAYT and rituals are "A NEW RELIGION BUILT BY THE ARABS".

I am becoming more convince and seeing more and more evidence of the truthfulness of this verse

The Arabs (al-arabu) are the worst in rejection and hypocrisy, and more likely not to know the limits of what God has sent upon His messenger
997

Salam

Raj-ah

OPF

Thanks, I actually just googled "Iram" and found this

Quote from http//home.hetnet.nl/~lilian_jan_schreurs/oman/Ubar.htm
Studies since the early 1990's, mainly led by Juris Zarins, the archeologist that was part of Clapp's original team, indicate that Ubar refers to a region and a group of people, not to a specific town. Ptolomy's second century map of the area clearly labels "Iobaritae". There was a tribal group of people, the Iobaritae or the Ubarites, who lived in the area, and the Shisur site is one of probably three or four major centers from that period. Whether it is Ubar or not is irrelevant from that perspective as it was clearly a key site along the incense caravan route at the edge of the great Empty Quarter.

So any other direct references to cities?

Before I give you any other refrences, let us see what are the sources of Dr.JZ
Following is the actual interview

NOVA Are you still confident that you found Ubar?

JZ There's a lot of confusion about that word. If you look at the classical texts and the Arab historical sources, Ubar refers to a region and a group of people, not to a specific town
OPF don'y be Childish! do you actually understand what above paragraph is saying?
Do you started believing in Arab historical sources, If Yes? then Thanks Allah the Puzzle is solved, The Bayt in MAkkah is the real BAYT. Case Closed.
But if NO? then

The Qur'an says that Irum was a city inhabited by the tribe of 'Ad. Arabic tradition holds that the tribe of 'Ad were the great-grandchildren of Noah; the Quran, however, does not maintain this. It was a rich and decadent city, filled with wicked people who dabbled in the occult

Have you noted what your Lord did to `?d?
The people are Ad
Of the (city of) Iram, with lofty pillarsQuran clearly tells us that

from the city/place of Irum

The like of which were not created in the (other) cities

who built buildings as no where else.

Example
The Americans of New York, build buildings like no other city has ever build.

This means Americans are group of people and the city/place where they build these buildings is New York.

Please see this detailed article about the city from National Geographic Magazine, which says that the name of the city was mentioned in inscriptions.

So even if Ubar is the name of region/city/place where buildings were built, Quran exactly mentions that Name.

Raj-ah

Well, what was it that proved this city to be the city of the people of ?Ad mentioned in the Qur?an?

Right from the moment remains started to be unearthed, it was understood that this ruined city belonged to ?Ad and of Iram?s pillars mentioned in the Qur?an, because among the structures unearthed were the towers particularly referred to in the Qur?an. A member of the research team leading the excavation, Dr. Zarins, said that since the towers were alleged to be the distinctive feature of Ubar, and since Iram was mentioned as having towers or pillars, this then was the strongest proof so far that the site they had unearthed was Iram, the city of ?Ad described in the Qur?an. The Qur?an mentions Iram as follows;

Seest thou not how thy Lord dealt with the 'Ad (people),-
Of the (city of) Iram, with lofty pillars,
The like of which were not produced in (all) the land? (Surat al-Fajr

unknownuser

OPF
Before I give you any other refrences, let us see what are the sources of Dr.JZ
Following is the actual interview

NOVA Are you still confident that you found Ubar?

JZ There's a lot of confusion about that word. If you look at the classical texts and the Arab historical sources, Ubar refers to a region and a group of people, not to a specific town
OPF don'y be Childish! do you actually understand what above paragraph is saying?
Do you started believing in Arab historical sources, If Yes? then Thanks Allah the Puzzle is solved, The Bayt in MAkkah is the real BAYT. Case Closed.
But if NO? then

The Qur'an says that Irum was a city inhabited by the tribe of 'Ad. Arabic tradition holds that the tribe of 'Ad were the great-grandchildren of Noah; the Quran, however, does not maintain this. It was a rich and decadent city, filled with wicked people who dabbled in the occult

Have you noted what your Lord did to `d?
The people are Ad
Of the (city of) Iram, with lofty pillarsQuran clearly tells us that

from the city/place of Irum

The like of which were not created in the (other) cities

who built buildings as no where else.

Example
The Americans of New York, build buildings like no other city has ever build.

This means Americans are group of people and the city/place where they build these buildings is New York.

Please see this detailed article about the city from National Geographic Magazine, which says that the name of the city was mentioned in inscriptions.

So even if Ubar is the name of region/city/place where buildings were built, Quran exactly mentions that Name.

The first fallacy is assuming that "classical Arab historical sources" and "classical texts" are the same "classical Arab historical sources" and "classical texts" that define Makka to be the house of Allah. Now, "Classical Arab historical sources" is evidently a physical construct, because unless the author was poorly versed in English, that's the only thing it can mean when contrasted with "classical texts".

The second fallacy is assuming I disregard "classical texts" wholesale - I don't. You have the wrong person. It's true that I disregard certain unreliable, word-of-mouth "classical texts", however.

The third fallacy is writing your own source. In this case, you cite the Quran, and conveniently place in brackets "(city of)". No, that doesn't work. Unless the verse specifically says "city of", you, or any "prominent scholar" have no authority to place "city of" in brackets. Don't write God's book with your own hands.

Anyway, enough diiversion from the original argument.

The predominant Sunni school of thought is that it's better to be safe than sorry. For instance, we go from "forbidden to you is adultery" to "When a man and woman are together alone, the third with them is Shaitan" (I seem to remember some story about Aisha being alone and a great scandal, according to "classical texts", care to reflect on that?), and "A woman wearing perfume is a whore".

Hence, God telling us "A foundation of piety is better than a foundation of crumbly sand" (NOTE THE CONTRAST BETWEEN PHYSICAL AND MENTAL/SPIRITUAL), can therefore, with the same logic, translate to "Mecca is a city of evil, stand not therein, it is better that you pay pilgrimage to a house of which the foundations are based on piety".

Even without the "classical text" thought, that would still stand because of the contrast between physical and spiritual made quite clearly in that verse.

The 'Ad did not die simply from the collapse of a water source

051.039
YUSUFALI But (Pharaoh) turned back with his Chiefs, and said, "A sorcerer, or one possessed!"
PICKTHAL But he withdrew (confiding) in his might, and said A wizard or a madman.
SHAKIR But he turned away with his forces and said A magician or a mad man.

051.040
YUSUFALI So We took him and his forces, and threw them into the sea; and his was the blame.
PICKTHAL So We seized him and his hosts and flung them in the sea, for he was reprobate.
SHAKIR So We seized him and his hosts and hurled them into the sea and he was blamable.

051.041
YUSUFALI And in the 'Ad (people) (was another Sign) Behold, We sent against them the devastating Wind
PICKTHAL And in (the tribe of) A'ad (there is a portent) when we sent the fatal wind against them.
SHAKIR And in Ad When We sent upon them the destructive wind.

051.042
YUSUFALI It left nothing whatever that it came up against, but reduced it to ruin and rottenness.
PICKTHAL It spared naught that it reached, but made it (all) as dust.
SHAKIR It did not leave aught on which it blew, but it made it like ashes.

051.043
YUSUFALI And in the Thamud (was another Sign) Behold, they were told, "Enjoy (your brief day) for a little while!"
PICKTHAL And in (the tribe of) Thamud (there is a portent) when it was told them Take your ease awhile.
SHAKIR And in Samood When it was said to them Enjoy yourselves for a while.

051.044
YUSUFALI But they insolently defied the Command of their Lord So the stunning noise (of an earthquake) seized them, even while they were looking on.
PICKTHAL But they rebelled against their Lord's decree, and so the thunderbolt overtook them even while they gazed;
SHAKIR But they revolted against the commandment of their Lord, so the rumbling overtook them while they saw.

051.045
YUSUFALI Then they could not even stand (on their feet), nor could they help themselves.
PICKTHAL And they were unable to rise up, nor could they help themselves.
SHAKIR So they were not able to rise up, nor could they defend themselves-

Physics question for you, Rajah. Can a house built on mud withstand 500kmh winds and still stay standing? Or to rephrase, do the mud huts in the satellite pictures look as if they've been slapped around by hurricane force winds, or do they look as if they've been left to rot for several thousand years, similarly to the Greek cities?

Raj-ah

Salaam Rajah

My statements you quoted are not mutually exclusive. Also you can add the following statement to the list

?I thank Allah for giving me the strength to make sincere effort to choose fact from fiction, truth from false hood and also I thank my Lord for giving me the strength to be strong enough to question hearsay and established ideas and practices and not to follow them blindly even though the majority supports it.?

This statement is much better and rational then your previous statements. Even though you donot seem to follow what you just said.

C?mon Rajah, this is unforgivably stupid even by your standards. You have not answered any of my questions in all the previous posts but you have started making faces at me as a last resort.

Before you call any one stupid just take a look at yourself first! It is hard to digest when a person who has posted most irrational and substandard posts when compared with others calls anyone stupid. Last resort? what the hell you are talking about?

About reading other literature on a subject specifically on the Quran I do oppose that someone should not read or gain knowledge from other sources. I reject when someone tries to establish an explanation on the Quraan based purely on an outside source. For instance when you say Mecca is Bakka since according to Britannica it is such. God does not rely on Britannica to explain what He did not explain in His book.

Now this is stupidity
I never said that Mecca is Becca because Britannica said it, I quoted a reference, about which you said the following

Warner
Quote
For those who are blind and led astray by the shaitan they can not see or understand the book of Allah. They will defend their falsehood using Britannica or any source. And devil will help them and protect their sources and Allah will protect His message

And you are not even ashamed of it.

I have not used the articles I posted as a support for any view. The articles raise questions and highlights contradictions.

Whenever you quote an article, reference which supports your view, it means automatically that supports your view. Don't try to play.

I suggest you answer the contradiction highlighted by me and in the articles without being evasive.

Yes! I will try to.

Raj-ah

Samia

Even though I said honestly I never heard of them?
With the anology you draw for this mosque and the three above examples, I understand that it is eiter actually there so I may visit it and see it, or there is archeological evidence that proves its existence; did I correctly understand you?

Well; i felt that some one knowldge able like you cannot be unaware of these two mosques I mentioned.

Mosque Quba is still there
It was built When the Prophet emigrated to Medina, he first landed at Bani Amr bin Awf and stayed in Quba for three days. So he built a mosque there, hence the first mosque built in Medina.
The distance from the Prophet`s Mosque to Quba Mosque (Masjid Qubaa) is 3.25 Kilometers.
You can visit it any time.

The second Mosque we are talking about which is been mentioned in the above verses was widely known as Mosque of Hypocrites and was destroyed by prophet.
Verses 107-110 refer to a mosque which had been constructed by some members of the Banu Ghanam tribe. It was alleged that rather than using this mosque for Islam, these men were using it as a sort of speak-easy where they conspired against Muhammad.

Quote
You like many ignorants of Quran Alone sect think that "Allah" shared with some Arabs of the Muhammad's time a consipiracy against "Allah".

How is this related to my question? And what does it mean anyway?

ayman

Peace Rajah,

Rajah, if you are going to ask for something that requires me spending some of my time to do a search on your behalf and get you the info on a golden platter, then you should at least be nice about it.

At any rate, as I said, you have to go about 4 years back

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/browse_frm/thread/75aae4a889a0c494/

In the course of the debate, we discussed Hadiths about "qiblah"/target. As you can see, Mr. Saifullah was defending Hadiths that say that when we defecate or urinate we should not face the so-called Qiblah but face the east or the west. Those Hadiths clearly make fun of the god and of passages such as 2115 that say "to the god belongs the east and the west". Of course, Mr. Saifullah was too busy defending his hearsay with more hearsay and didn't care about the content or validating it against the great reading. It is a waste of time to continue a debate when it is clear that the opponent doesn't even care about what the god is saying.

I just don't understand why did you posted this link? First of all this debate is regarding HAdith, secondly it clearly tells us your lack of knowldge regarding Hadith stuff.

The nonsensical Hadith that Mr. Saifullah was defending is about facing the east or the west while defecating or urinating and not the "qiblah"/target. Of course, "qiblah" is the main point of this discussion. You claim that "qiblah" is a pagan stone cube while the great reading tells us that our target is the truth from our lord.

Unfortuntely, Saifullah and Rajah are so blinded by the logical fallacy of appeal to authority of the easily manufactured Hadiths and their chains of transmission that they forget to notice that the content is idiotic and is actually making fun of passages such as 2115 which tell us that "to the god belongs the east and the west".

Who suffers from lack of knowledge? Is it idiots who defend a Hadith that is sneakly making fun of the word of the god and urinate and defecate while facing the east and the west or is it those who expose the fact that this is absurd? Saifullah and Rajah can hapily defecate and urinate while facing the east and west but they shouldn't claim that this "Hadith stuff" has anything to do with real knowledge.

This is why the above comment from Rajah examplifies everything that is wrong with Sunni dogma and its inherently blind followers.

C'mon Rajah, do you really expect to come here and convince people of anything using what you claim to be logic when you defecate and urinate while facing the east and the west? I think that you need to start by being logical yourself so that you can be credible.

Peace,

Ayman

Samia

Samia
Well; i felt that some one knowldge able like you cannot be unaware of these two mosques I mentioned.

Mosque Quba is still there
It was built When the Prophet emigrated to Medina, he first landed at Bani Amr bin Awf and stayed in Quba for three days. So he built a mosque there, hence the first mosque built in Medina.
The distance from the Prophet`s Mosque to Quba Mosque (Masjid Qubaa) is 3.25 Kilometers.
You can visit it any time.

The second Mosque we are talking about which is been mentioned in the above verses was widely known as Mosque of Hypocrites and was destroyed by prophet.
Verses 107-110 refer to a mosque which had been constructed by some members of the Banu Ghanam tribe. It was alleged that rather than using this mosque for Islam, these men were using it as a sort of speak-easy where they conspired against Muhammad.

009.107
YUSUFALI And there are those who put up a mosque by way of mischief and infidelity - to disunite the Believers - and in preparation for one who warred against Allah and His Messenger aforetime. They will indeed swear that their intention is nothing but good; But Allah doth declare that they are certainly liars.
PICKTHAL And as for those who chose a place of worship out of opposition and disbelief, and in order to cause dissent among the believers, and as an outpost for those who warred against Allah and His messenger aforetime, they will surely swear We purposed naught save good. Allah beareth witness that they verily are liars.
SHAKIR And those who built a masjid to cause harm and for unbelief and to cause disunion among the believers and an ambush to him who made war against Allah and His Messenger before; and they will certainly swear We did not desire aught but good; and Allah bears witness that they are most surely liars.

Original

Salaam Raj-ah

So, this is your "zarar" mosque? rotfl This is even worse than Makkah = faarraan

I wasted much time searching for - - and of course came up with nothing (other than "button&quot. In my wildest dreams I never imagined that this is what you meant. Why isn't it called "zirar wa kufr" ? (it's pronounced DHirar not Dharar).
And it has been destroyed by the prophet! How convenient It's not there to see, LOL. Any ruins? I don't think so.

All this manipulation to tie the verse to some narrow interpretation/aka misinterpretation? That's one of the meaning of (they took/treated the quraan mahjooan)/tie it to a narrow mind).

Another time wasted looking for Quba mosque (searching for Dome mosque in English, too, since quba/qubba = dome), so I found that you meant "Qibaa '" no Quba. I know qibaa yay
Qibaa' is the prophet's mosque, the first mosque built in Yathreb. The one which is 2.5-5 km away from it is what's called (the mosques with two "qiblas&quot and was not constructed by the prophet, but allegedly constructed during his life.

Raj-ah

So the CAT comes out of the bag as I corrcetly assumed.

Samia

Another time wasted looking for Quba mosque (searching for Dome mosque in English, too, since quba/qubba = dome), so I found that you meant "Qibaa '" no Quba. I know qibaa
Qibaa' is the prohet's mosque, the first mosque built in Yathreb. The one which is 2.5-5 km away from it is what's called (the mosques with two "qiblas&quot and was not constructed by the prophet, but allegedly constructed during his life.

I don't know from where the information is flowing unto you? and why are you wasting your time on some thing which is very clear.

Masjid Quba
It is about two miles south-west from Masjid-an Nabawi. This is the very first mosque of the muslims. The Prophet Muhammad and his companions built it with their own hands. This is the first mosque in the history of Islam whose foundation stone was laid down by Prophet Muhammad himself on his migration to Madinah

Quba Mosque
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Masjid Al-QubaThe Quba Mosque (Quba' Masjid or Masjid al-Quba, Arabic &#1569 just outside Medina, Saudi Arabia, is the first Islamic mosque ever built and the National mosque of Saudi Arabia. Its first stones were positioned by the prophet Muhammad on his emigration from the city of Mecca to Medina

So you can be happy with your Qibba and

So, this is your "zarar" mosque? This is even worse than Makkah = faarraan

whatever you like, My duty is just to present what I feel is truth, according To ALLAH's word.

Raj-ah

In one of his letters Abu 'Amir wrote to his friends

"Construct a mosque in the village of Quba' opposite the mosque of the Muslims. Assemble there at the time of prayers and on the pretext of offering prayers, discuss and chalk out plans against Islam and the Muslims".

Like the present day enemies of Islam Abu 'Amir had also realized that in a country in which religion is fully established, the best way to destroy it, is to use the name of religion itself, and religion can be harmed more by using its own name rather than by any other factor. He knew fully well that the Prophet would not permit the hypocrites to build a centre for themselves under any circumstances, except when they gave that centre a religious tinge and erected a meeting-place for themselves with the name of a mosque.

I quoted above pargraph because it actualy tallies very much with hypocrites of today. Today you can see that the Plans/hypothesis/third rated attacks on Muhammad, which were never allowed to or listned to or given any weightage to when it came from Non Muslims are being at least listened, because it comes from some who call themselves Muslims but actually they are against the Unity of Muslims, by heart they want to shift the "Bayt" to the place which is ruled by Zionits, forthe purpose they distort the meanings of Quran and the actual Message, they reject all the historical sources and call others followers of Shitaan.

Allah Ho Akbar, Allah has warned us about them in his Great reading centuries ago.

Samia

Salaam Raj-ah

So the CAT comes out of the bag as I corrcetly assumed.

Never take me for granted on a discussion board

I don't know from where the information is flowing unto you? and why are you wasting your time on some thing which is very clear.

Where else other than from Sheik Google (quoting Bigmo)! I searched Arabic sites as well, including the site of (al madina almunawwara) and (mosques of almadina), as well as wiki and many other English and Arabic sites.

So you can be happy with your Qibba and

Not Qibba...QibAA'. That's not the point. The point is when you search for qibaa alone or the masjid nabawy alone, you come up with the same information. When you search for the mosques of almadina or the almadina site, you find only one mosque, not both of them. The one 2.5 -5 km further to them which you mentioned is the "mosque with two qiblas", not constructed by the prophet, but used by him nevertheless.

whatever you like, My duty is just to present what I feel is truth, according To ALLAH's word.

It's not what I like or what you feel. That is not how God defines "truth". He commands us to verify, think and use our reasoning, and this is your duty. If you did that (and kept what or how you felt on hold), you wouldn't come up with such a statement as

" = "...a mosque by way of mischief and infidelity means mosque of zarar".!!