Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?
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Peace all ? anything on Medina and person buried there?
http//www.deenislam.co.uk/gallery/artefacts/Rauza-e-Rasool2.jpg
In what city were the first Uthman Qur?ans standardized and sent out?
http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4581684.stm
http//www.answering-christianity.com/quran/noble_quran_mss1.jpg
Did Mecca and Medina pop up suddenly out of the desert for no reason?
According to some of your theories; after Qur?an was revealed (in wherever place that was) within a generation the pagans took over, reverted, and concocted over a million hadith stories making Mecca and Medina the center of it all while at the same time preserving Qur?an and spreading Islam throughout the lands ? makes no sense.
Peace
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In what city were the first Uthman Qur?ans standardized and sent out?
http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4581684.stm
Did Mecca and Medina pop up suddenly out of the desert for no reason?
How come Osman collected the qur'aan on normal paper whereas a few years earlier it was supposedly written on camel bones, stones, wood...etc? Did paper pop up suddenly?
while at the same time preserving Quran and spreading Islam throughout the lands makes no sense.
Peace
What kind of Islam did they spread? Religion was an excellent tool to control people. Why would they destroy it?
As for Qur'aan, no thanks to them. God took it on Himself to preserve it. -
Its very common hadith that prophet said For the sake of knowledge you can go to china, or he said something like that. And we know that in china people used to make papers long before CE. How did prophet know that china is very advanced country? So Probably in the light of that hadith Usman imported papers from china. We shouldn't be sceptical if the other satisfying options are there.
May God increase our knowledge.
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How come Osman collected the qur'aan on normal paper whereas a few years earlier it was supposedly written on camel bones, stones, wood...etc? Did paper pop up suddenly?
No ?etc? also included paper (papyrus was around since 3000 bc) and deerskin like this Qur?an...
http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4581684.stm
What kind of Islam did they spread? Religion was an excellent tool to control people. Why would they destroy it?
There's only one Islam of the "There is no compulsion in religion..." kind; belief is a conviction of the mind else Moguls who after conquering ?them? would never have converted if there wasn?t something convincing in the message.
As for Qur'aan, no thanks to them. God took it on Himself to preserve it.
Yes, through them! How else?
What exactly is your point; that there were no hardcopies of Qur?an?
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Peace Nun de plume,
How long did it take for the people of Moses to start worshipping the golden calf during his absence?
Not more then few days or weeks? And that happened in the presence of Prophet Aaron.
If Moses hadn?t returned, what would have been the scenario then?
How come Osman collected the qur'aan on normal paper whereas a few years earlier it was supposedly written on camel bones, stones, wood...etc? Did paper pop up suddenly?
why did he burned the other copies of quran?
peace
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Its very common hadith that prophet said For the sake of knowledge you can go to china, or he said something like that. And we know that in china people used to make papers long before CE. How did prophet know that china is very advanced country? So Probably in the light of that hadith Usman imported papers from china. We shouldn't be sceptical if the other satisfying options are there.
May God increase our knowledge.
I am not surprised at the qur'aan being in paper. I am rather surprised at the qur'aan claimed to be written at the time of the prophet on skin, bone, stone...anything but paper. Papyrus was around hundreds or thousands years earlir, just near them there in Egypt.
I am referring to what's in the link by Nun, not just the post.
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Its very common hadith that prophet said For the sake of knowledge you can go to china, or he said something like that. And we know that in china people used to make papers long before CE. How did prophet know that china is very advanced country? So Probably in the light of that hadith Usman imported papers from china. We shouldn't be sceptical if the other satisfying options are there.
May God increase our knowledge.
In 751 A.D. the Arabs occupying Samarkand were attacked by the Chinese - in repelling the invasion certain prisoners were taken who were skilled in paper-making. The paper-making art then spread westwards following the caravan routes. It reached Egypt in the 10th Century.
http//origami.kvi.nl/lists/history.htmpeace
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papyrus? chinese had high quality hemp paper... any long distance trade would provide merchants with it... and if they had silk... well as far as i know the best silk came along the silk road from china... i don't know much about silk, it makes me too sweaty
that is of course if they really had silk... it is mentioned in hadith... but so are flying horses taking people to foreign cities
OPF - oh are you the sarcastic type? sorry i didn't get it the first time around P
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What kind of an idiot writes THAT BIG??
rotfl
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Peace Rajah,
Surely you will go for Hajj one day and that will be Kaaba in Mecca, as soon you will realize that KAABA is the place in Mecca for HAjj, it was Corrupted at the times of Abraham, and Abraham purified it, It was Corrupted during times of Muhammad and Muhammad purified it by bringing down all the idols, and it is corrupted now by the present Administrators and we have to purify it YES! but that does not mean we start making our own KAABA, which is not visible since last 1400 years and neither do you have any clue for it.
There is no authentic evidence for the part of your quote in red apart from unverifiable hearsays. There is no evidence of Abraham or Muhammad having ever come to what is now known as Mecca. According to evidence from al-qur'aan, Muhammad was located near the Dead Sea area and migrated to what is now called Medina, hence the "kaaba"/base was most likely near those locations.
After Muhammad's death, the arab pagan hypocrites renamed their pagan temple Kaaba after the common noun "kaaba"/heel/base in al-qur'aan and renamed the insignificant town containing this pagan temple Mecca after the common noun "makka(t)"/destruction/wearing down in al-qur'aan so that they can resume their pagan practices while pretending to be following al-qur'aan.
If you still insist on performing "7ajj" at Mecca, then I agree that we need to purify that location of all the filthy pagan idols and pagan practices. Once that location is purified, and it satisfies all the criteria of "albayt alharaam" as given in al-qur'aan, then I have no problem going there to participate in "7ajj", because its location can be ANYWHERE where no partners are set up with The God (2226).
- First of all I don't think so that present administrators are setting up any partners with Allah; and even if they do (that is only if you can provide any solid evidence for it), that is what they are doing and our duty is to convey them the true message of Quran, but changing of KAABA and trying to find a new one just because administrators are doing any thing wrong is not justified at all.
The present so called Kaaba in Mecca is an exact replica of the cuboid stone idols that symbolise gods and goddesses of the pagans. It contains a black stone in a dilated vulva shaped enclosure precisely aligned with winter sunrise, signifying the birth of their sun-god. It is also veiled in black cloth, just like the pagans used to veil the representations of their goddesses in black dresses. There is also a footprint idol with a floral motif in its vicinity which symbolises good fortune according to pagan mythology. Pagan rituals and practices such as mindlessly spinning seven times around the pagan temple and kissing the black stone are incorporated in "7ajj". Anyone who builds such idols and allows pagan practices to be continued in the guise of "7ajj" is indeed setting up partners with The God.
How are you going to convince those administrators to destroy all idols and abolish all pagan practices when they are deliberately doing it despite knowing such things cannot be found in al-qur'aan ? Do you really think they do not know the true message of al-qur'aan ?
- Again that is a mistake by the present administartion and what effect does it make on KAABA being the House.
The effect it has is that when ALL PEOPLE are not allowed to come to Mecca, one of the qur'aanic criteria of the house is not fulfilled, thus disqualifying it as "albayt alharaam" mentioned in al-qur'aan.
- They should and if they are not doing the Job properly they are responsible for the consequences and we have to inform the people about it, but this again doesnot allows us to call all the historical and geographical, literary evidences just as hearsay.
Even when that "historical" and "literary" evidence contradicts the qur'aanic and archeological evidence ?
a) Kissing of stone A hadith tells us ; when asked by a fellow Umar replied I only kiss the Stone because Muhammad kissed it and Allah did not asked to do it.
Those who believe in Hadith even after reading this HAdith kiss the stone, we should give them awareness rather calling them Idol lovers and MUSHRIKS etc.Anyone who engages in any pagan practice is indeed an idol lover and sets up partners with The God. I agree that we need to convey to such people that setting up partners with The God is forbidden according to His message.
b) Foot print If there is any foot print why does it bother you, no one is kissing it, no one is worshipping it, they are just praying two Rakats behind that place known as station of Ibraheem.
According to al-qur'aan, The "maqam" of Abraham is supposed to be located IN the "kaaba" (397) and not "near" or "outside" it.
A more pressing question that presents itself "What do footprints in a rock have anything to do with the functions of "7ajj" and the calling of all people?"
Such footprints are not unique or special but are typically what we find for fertility idols. According to pagan mythology, good fortune and flowers spring up in the footprints of the idol. Thus, you find such prints next to the fertility idol's sanctuary. If you look closely at the pagan footprint idols inside the so called "Maqam Ibrahim", you will see the flower motif all the way around it. Such filthy stuff has nothing to do with Abraham or al-qur'aan. Please see the following link for pictures and details
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112329#msg112329
Instead of defending it, shouldn't you follow the example of Abraham? If you really believe that Mecca is the location of the house, shouldn't you be purifying the place from such filthy pagan idols instead of finding excuses for them ? Where in al-qur'aan are we asked to pray 2 rakats behind a place called Maqam Ibrahim containing footprint idols ? What is the difference between praying towards an idol and praying to it ?
c) Cuboidal building So what kind of House do you need? a Square a rectangle or a circle? it is the way it was built and has been rennovated again and again, it has to be of some shape, why your anger is at cuboid?
Because we know from Nabatean archeological evidence that the physical representations of their pagan gods and goddesses were in the form of cuboid stone idols with height greater than width, and the current so called Kaaba is an exact replica of such cuboidal stone idols.
Please see the folowing link for pictures and details
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112065#msg112065
- I don't see any body fighting over there.
What about a terrorist attack and takeover by some 200 armed Islamic fundamentalist dissidents against the Saudi ruling family, at Al-Masjid Al-Haram in Mecca ? What about the 1987 massacre of Iranian pilgrims during 7ajj in Mecca ? What about the serious incidents during the 7ajj that have led to the loss of hundreds of lives as given in the following article
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidents_during_the_Hajj
Do you really think ALL PEOPLE, including Jews, Christians, Hindus etc., will be able to assemble safely in Mecca during 7ajj in the present conditions ?
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Salam.
I don't know who built it but inshaALLAH i would like to go there and ask them. Now, circling the thing is a whole other deal. I'm a little curious about those inhabitants there, are they friendly? Because i have heard some people here say that sometimes bad guys inflitrate there to cause trouble, steal and make Islam look bad.
Peace.
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AOA Samoa
I am sorry your English in not that bad, the fault lies with me. I did not pay full attention to what you had actually written. My apologies.
The obvious is the meaning known for "ba6n" and its usage. The ridiculous is to put a meaning and a usage that does not exist, just to make it fit with a preconception. If you do not know Arabic, this is not an excuse. Search dictionaries...Hans Wehr, and even better, Lane's Lexicon.
However I have checked what you have said with number of Arab friends and colleagues, Most of them graduates from an Arab country as well as having post graduation qualifications from an English institution. Every one has expressed amazement at your explanation of the verse 4824. Whilst they accept that the word used for in, interior, midst etc is not the one always used when mentioning cities. However, it is perfectly legitimate to use it in the way it has been translated in English to date.
Also the word Makka (in Arabic) can have different meaning. The one that best fits the verse, and the preceding and following verses, in the Quran is that it is a place. I have not found any Arabic speaking person (both Muslim & Non Muslim) who does not think your interpertation is ridiculous and that is putting it kindly.Since I personally know these people, their knowledge, intellect, integrity etc as well as every linguistic scholar (even the new sectists on this site) have translated the verse as Makka to mean Makka. I am left with no conclusion that either your Arabic is poor or you are deliberately trying to misinform.
regards
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AOA Samia
Apologies for the incorrect spelling of your name befor peace
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AOA Samia
Apologies for the incorrect spelling of your name befor peace
You can edit your post to correct her name, if you really have realised your mistake....
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AOA Samia (occassionally manage to spell correctlY)
The problem with the translation you provide is the word (interior) which is not the equivalent of the Arabic word " ba6n", literally, "belly" front. It is usually used in opposition to " Dhahr back". This is not the word used for "cities/towns/...In Arabic you do not say biba6n almadeena if you want (inside/in the interior). In fact "qalb" which is literally heart, is used with towns to mean "city center".
The meaning you have given above
Arabic word " ba6n", literally, "belly" front
. I have been told that it does mean inside the stomach i.e deep within. Since many of the new sectists have explained that the word Makka means destruction that best fits here & if I am not mistaken I think that was your interpertation as well.Hence if ba6n means inside the belly or the clever literary use would be to mention it in the context of a city and not destruction. I mean in (belly like deep) destruction does that make any sense in any language.
Regard -
Salaam SL
I am Samia, not Samoa
Of course, when you give them the verse, there is already a preconception of the meaning. Did you try to give this word in a neutral sentence as ( We met biba6n the town) or (the market place is exactly biba6n city), because these are the rediculous sentences.
Whilst they accept that the word used for in, interior, midst etc is not the one always used when mentioning cities. However, it is perfectly legitimate to use it in the way it has been translated in English to date.
So, they agree that it can't be used for cities. That's what I said. What makes it legitmate in their eyes is the preconception of the meaning, not because it is correct.
So how did you arrive to the conclusion that either my Arabic is poor or I am deliberately trying to misinform?
Also the word Makka (in Arabic) can have different meaning. The one that best fits the verse, and the preceding and following verses, in the Quran is that it is a place. I have not found any Arabic speaking person (both Muslim & Non Muslim) who does not think your interpertation is ridiculous and that is putting it kindly.
I do not alienate myself from anything I write or say, but I neithr discussed makkah, nor came up with any interpretation of the verse. So don't put words in my message and invent an opporunity to attack me in order to feel good about yourself.
Here is my original message
Salaam stillearning
The problem with the translation you provide is the word (interior) which is not the equivalent of the Arabic word " ba6n", literally, "belly" front. It is usually used in opposition to " Dhahr back". This is not the word used for "cities/towns/...In Arabic you do not say biba6n almadeena if you want (inside/in the interior). In fact "qalb" which is literally heart, is used with towns to mean "city center".
biba6n is more logical to mean confront/confrontation than interior.
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Hence if ba6n means inside the belly or the clever literary use would be to mention it in the context of a city and not destruction. I mean in (belly like deep) destruction does that make any sense in any language.
RegardNo one says (biba6n a town). First bi does not primarily mean (in), but rather (at), (by) (with). (fi) is more accurate. qalb, heart, is the word used to mean interior, core .
None of the derivatives of "ba6n" used in the qur'aan mean inside baa6in hidden, secret , used in opposition to Dhahir clear; (verses 6151; 732; 573; 6120; 5713; 3120) bi6aana people around someone who advise (311 also means lining (other side of textile material) (verse 5554). All other usages directly mean (stomach, uterus) which are the organs in the frontal.
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AOA SAMIA
I am Samia, not Samoa
I have already apologised if it is not enough then SORRY again.
Of course, when you give them the verse, there is already a preconception of the meaning. Did you try to give this word in a neutral sentence as ( We met biba6n the town) or (the market place is exactly biba6n city), because these are the rediculous sentences
.The verse does not talk about meeting in town or city etc so I am not sure what your point is.
Quote
Whilst they accept that the word used for in, interior, midst etc is not the one always used when mentioning cities. However, it is perfectly legitimate to use it in the way it has been translated in English to date.So, they agree that it can't be used for cities. That's what I said. What makes it legitmate in their eyes is the preconception of the meaning, not because it is correct.
No they did not say that read what I have written. Of course it can be used.
So how did you arrive to the conclusion that either my Arabic is poor or I am deliberately trying to misinform?
I thought i had explained it already.
Quote from stillearning on Today at 124621 PM
Also the word Makka (in Arabic) can have different meaning. The one that best fits the verse, and the preceding and following verses, in the Quran is that it is a place. I have not found any Arabic speaking person (both Muslim & Non Muslim) who does not think your interpertation is ridiculous and that is putting it kindly.I do not alienate myself from anything I write or say, but I neithr discussed makkah, nor came up with any interpretation of the verse. So don't put words in my message and invent an opporunity to attack me in order to feel good about yourself.
Here is my original message
Quote from Samia on May 24, 2007, 024736 AM
Salaam stillearningThe problem with the translation you provide is the word (interior) which is not the equivalent of the Arabic word " ba6n", literally, "belly" front. It is usually used in opposition to " Dhahr back". This is not the word used for "cities/towns/...In Arabic you do not say biba6n almadeena if you want (inside/in the interior). In fact "qalb" which is literally heart, is used with towns to mean "city center".
biba6n is more logical to mean confront/confrontation than interior.
wow! Samia. In case you had not realised this thread is about the new sectists questioning that there is no evidence of the existance of Makka during Mohds time. Prhaps you did not discuss the word Makka but your inference was very clear. Anyway if your point was NOT that this verse could not mean Makka as city what exactly was your point...
Unless I have completely misunderstood you again. Your new post makes me suspect that you were deliberately trying to mislead.
regards