Was the term "daraba" sneakily turned to "beating" by hypocrites?

unknownuser

This is an immensely clear issue for those with life experience.....If you want to beat anything go get a punchbag....
To all the women,what if it was linguistically proven that beating was indeed the correct translation,what happens then? Have faith and put up with it,or realise we have intelligence beyond mere books and archaic rules?

siki

Peace Khizer

In case of sallu, i agree with you , it makes sense in every possible way, so i did not hesitate a second to adopt a better understanding. However one should not blindly accept every theory proposed by someone. We must use common sense, rational thinking, combined with some research using Quran as dictionary, and thoroughly evaluate all aspects before jumping to a new conclusion.

About this particular ayah, i still do not find a better alternate meaning which can be confirmed from Quran , so i am sticking with the traditional meanings ,weather i personally like it or not . There is plenty in Quran which goes against the popular sentiments of today , but we must remember that "Practiced Norms of a certain society at a given point in time do not set the parameters" , it is God who does , so we must evaluate these matters keeping our hearts aside.

Brother point me a single women who is willing to accept this commandment ,or the matter regarding sex with MMA, or the recommendation of half share in inheritance? Because these rules are Gender biased , but the creator knows his creation the best, and hence recommends the best.

We must be honest and unbiased in analysing Quran, and should evaluate every argument/word on merit rather than looking for meanings, which our hearts want to find in the Message.

Finally , brother show me from Quran where Dharbba is used in the meaning of separate or leave, and you will find me more than willing to accept it.

cheers handshake

siki

unknownuser

Peace siki,

Finally , brother show me from Quran where Dharbba is used in the meaning of separate or leave, and you will find me more than willing to accept it.

Separate/leave/travel/get out 3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273

To beat them makes no sense and contradicts the rest of Qur?an.

Samia

This is an immensely clear issue for those with life experience.....If you want to beat anything go get a punchbag....
To all the women,what if it was linguistically proven that beating was indeed the correct translation,what happens then? Have faith and put up with it,or realise we have intelligence beyond mere books and archaic rules?

It is not just a problem of linguistics of this word, it is the understanding of the whole verse. The example of the two kind of women (the believing and the nashez) is he example of people who were priviliged and spend from their money, because this is what the verse is about, not the passive ones who are doing nothing and were just being catered for. Otherwise, why would someone who does not have the means to sustain themselves become arrogant (this is BTW the meaning of nashez)?

unknownuser

Peace, Samia.

I believe the word "noushouz" in the context , means "rebellion".

Moreseo, it is not only the women who can be "nashez", (be guilty of "noushouz&quot, but also the men.

Read this ( I will leave the word untranslated)

And if a woman fears from her husband "noushouz", or disregard, then there is no sin for them to reconcile between themselves; and reconciliation is good. And the souls are brought by need. And if you are kind and do right, then God is expert over what you do.

The above verse poses a problem to the chauvanist and misogynist traditionalists, because it shows that men also, can be "nashiz".
So, if according to these traditionalists, "noushouz" means disobedience, then how can they explain 4128??
Does it mean that men have to obey their wives also??

Or are they missing something?

savage_carrot

We had a previous discussion on this, not sure if it's been brought up but here it is anyway

http//free-minds.org80/forum/index.php?topic=13327.0

Samia

Peace, Samia.

I believe the word "noushouz" in the context , means "rebellion".

Lisanul 3arab nashz (n) elevated part of earth; nashaza (v) to rise, to be higher than its normal place; to stand up or get up.

Nushouz of huband or wife to look down upon the other

In the qur'aan
5811 = to rise up "..and when you are told to rise up, rise up. Allah will exalt in degrees those who believe..."

2259 = to put on top "...look at the bones, how We put them on each other then clothe them with flesh"

unknownuser

......And so the only way this is possible ( i.e a woman to be "nashiz" ) is if she was the boss (so to speak), or if she was the one supportung the family, due to certain circumstances on part of the husband (poor, down on his luck, physically handicapped, etc...)

When the Quran says that men are to support and protect women (Qawwamoon), it's giving us a general social FACT. (Not law, but FACT).
However, there are also exceptions (social circumstances) where the woman becomes the supporter and protector, and head of the family.
In these exceptional cases, these women might "look down" or "be arrogant" towards their husbands (NUSHOUZ). In this case God gives the men a three-step solution to dealing with such women

1- try to talk to them and put some sense into them.
2- don't sleep with them
3- desert them completely (Adribouhunna).

Peace...

Samia

......And so the only way this is possible ( i.e a woman to be "nashiz" ) is if she was the boss (so to speak), or if she was the one supportung the family, due to certain circumstances on part of the husband (poor, down on his luck, physically handicapped, etc...)

When the Quran says that men are to support and protect women (Qawwamoon), it's giving us a general social FACT. (Not law, but FACT).
However, there are also exceptions (social circumstances) where the woman becomes the supporter and protector, and head of the family.
In these exceptional cases, these women might "look down" or "be arrogant" towards their husbands (NUSHOUZ). In this case God gives the men a three-step solution to dealing with such women

1- try to talk to them and put some sense into them.
2- don't sleep with them
3- desert them completely (Adribouhunna).

Peace...

Exactly!

The two women are the example of "rijaal seekers, movers " who work, have money and spend . The fact that women can also be rich is not exceptional. Rich men have daughters, wives, sisters who inherit them, that is the least to say. God has advised men to be fair to their wives. Now it is the turn of women who support the family to be God fearing and not arrogant.

How can anybody beat someone who pays his rent and food?

unknownuser

Why then would she like to live with a man who beat her? confused

may be she is masochist.....

siki

Peace siki,

Separate/leave/travel/get out 3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273

To beat them makes no sense and contradicts the rest of Qur?an.

Peace my dear NUN

I appreciate your effort for providing me with references. i have examined them and here is my opinion.

In all of these occurrences , The term "Daraaba" is combined with "Fil Ardee" except 38-44

The word daraaba when combined with the term "Fill Ardee" conveys a different meaning , which is "going out in the land" or in other words it is like, " When you hit the road /Go and hit the road/they went about pouncing the earth "etc.

38-44 does not have this syntax and the word daraaba is singly used, and hence it conveys the meaning of striking . (you may like to recheck with some other translations)

Formulation/context of the sentence is very important in determing the correct meaning of a word in a particular sentence, we just can't pick up any dictionary or lane and then randomly replace a word to derive a meaning of our choice.

lets take the example of the word Strike in English.

" I will strike you"
"The union called for a strike"
"Strike out this option"
In fighter pilot's language , when some one tells his fellow aviator that he is scheduled for a "strike", it means he is flying a ground attack profile.

The word "Darraba" when used alone , conveys the meaning of strike/hit, and in that particular verse as the subject is/are human so that can only mean HIT THEM.

Samia had a valid argument that strike in terms of hit should be generally combined with some thing like , hit where? with what? Her observation is correct but is not a rule, The sentence is grammatically and linguistically still correct even if the objects are not specified. And in this particular case divine wisdom probably did not want to limit its application. He left it to individual choice/situation/wisdom.

NADIA! Thank you very much for your referral that was helpfull.

God Bless

sikandar

peace4life

Salam,

hajirfm you said "If god wanted to say leave them, then He, being god, knew there was a better word for it 'utrokoohunna' or if he wanted to say 'divorce them' he would say 'telleqoohunna'." elektro

If God says utrokoohunna then many men would believe that they should leave (including leaving the financial responsibility, leaving the relationship). That's not what God wants because clearly God loves for couples to reconcile (especially if there are children).

He wouldn't say "talleqoohunna" because God doesn't like divorce (as seen in Quran) and gives people time apart and a chance to get back together.

So God provides a word which implies Temporality (temporarily leave). adhreb = strike (temporary break - stoppage in order to bargain or reach agreement)

Adhred alta3am (food) = strike against food (hunger strike)
Adhreb Al-shoghl = strike against work (go on strike)
Adhred Al-nisa / adrebhunna = strike against the woman (temporarily leave her) ----> hunna is just a pronoun = Them (femenine)

God always wants people to have a TIME (break) before divorce (whether to give time to see if the woman is pregnant or to cool off). He even says that if you hate your woman, you could be hating something in which God has placed a lot of good.

God says that men and women are equal, that they have affection and mercy between them and other words like that. He doesn't give men a right to oppress or hit women in any way. As a matter of fact we know from the Quran that God doesn't like oppression or the aggressors.

Secondly, Nashaz is when someone deviates. So a Nashooz is someone who swerves from the path by doing unrighteous or socially unacceptable acts. I.e. basically not following what the Quran says about morality or conduct. E.g. husband or wife gossiping, flirting and so on.

Traditionally men (males) corrupted Hadith and religious guidelines so they can gain power in the home and society.

You're free to disagree. But God is also the best Sociologist and Social Worker, and He knows what's best. Look at Quran as a whole & the reason for it = peace.

Salam peace

hajirfm

Peace all,

And are we, as wives, meant to suffer at the (possible) tyranny of our husband, living in fear of doing that which he deems 'unacceptable' --if this matter is something that is going to be decided by his disgression? That fear that a woman carries in her heart of physical abuse from her husband (which easily stretches into other matters) smacks of shirk in my life's experience and understanding.

How do you explain that?

Well you better open your eyes before you marry anybody. This verse doesn't give permission to men to be abusive. It allows beating only in very stricted circumstances. Most women don't go that far. We are not talking about you. We are talking about a woman who is acting irresponsible toward her family.

And please keep the label of shirk out of the picture for now. Well what do I expect from this forum where some people here consider all muslims mushrik except their small group.

Samia

Secondly, Nashaz is when someone deviates. So a Nashooz is someone who swerves from the path by doing unrighteous or socially unacceptable acts. I.e. basically not following what the Quran says about morality or conduct. E.g. husband or wife gossiping, flirting and so on.

Salaam peace4life, all

I agree with your post, except what I am quoting of it. This meaning is neither supported by known arabic dictionaries nor by the usage in the qur'aan of this word/derivatives.

There is another interesting, and more plausible meaning of "dharaba" which is cited in "lisanul3arab" to have intercourse with.

hajirfm