STILL DEBATING SALAT?!?
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There is no strawman OPF,i have heard one farouk/mquran state publicly that the quran was revealed to us personally,and many people claim the messenger has no authority except as a postman,whilst implicity interpreting for the rest of us......Lack of insight and double standards characterises these folks.....
Salat from the quran can easily be shown to be the prayers as they are in sunnism, and if any invoke other than god just think that could be an addition or corruption.....In fact many quran only folks (even on this forum.) think salat is as it was in sunnism with just slight modifications,and they base this on quranic evidence....So i dont know why you are even arguing with SHM,if any views are fine as long as they are based on quranic evidence(which seems to be many on this forums view.....quite convenient to mask all the disagreements,but i digress!),then all you are doing is arguing for your own personal stance/desire or arguing for arguements sake......Are you bored OPF?You cannot generalise when everyone has differing opinions! I wrote a post in reply, but it wouldn't submit earlier on. Nonetheless, it seems Tanveer has covered that.
As for arguing for the sake of arguing, the only time that is invalid is when you dispute something concretely proven - 2+2. After all, if people didn't "argue for the sake of arguing" about the hadith...
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Im not the one claiming this book is perfect,im showing you the default view......
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Why can't they agree on some consensus? ?
Progressive Muslims Secular View of Islam
The Progressive Muslim didn?t have a consensus on the majority of the issues including the key tenets of Islam (Salat, Zakat, Hajj etc). This surprised me to a degree. I thought that even with their eccentric view of Submission (Islam), consensus and agreement can still be reached with their own organization. Even the idolization of Jesus was agreement upon through the Nicene Council. But consensus within Progressive Muslim is not the case. Why? The Progressive Muslim Movement is simply a secular movement of Islam (similar to The Secret DVD is a secular view on Faith) created to appease mainstream. And although I understand the intention to re-create a ?neo safe? Islam as a need to defend against the ever growing stereotypes, attacks, misogyny, terrorism, and other ills that seem to be over the Islamic community, the Progressive Muslim Movement ideology foundation is flaw and provide no real answers.
Even though Progressive Muslim claims to use the Koran alone, the organization and members remain greatly divided. There is no consensus on salat, zakat, or hajj. And each member varies greatly on the implementation of these tenets. How can there be great division yet only one source, The Koran? In most cases dominations are created when multiple sources are introduced. For example, Christianity denominations are due to multiple source and variations of the Bible including the removal and inclusion of specific books within it. Islam major denominations (Shite, Sunni, etc) are base on external source introduce to the Koran and variations of those outside sources (Hadiths). However, Progressive Muslim strongly advocates using the Koran alone but still has great division? Why are they so divided?
Progressive Muslims At Its Roots
The answer is simply, Progressive Muslim promote autonomy of the individual in interpreting the Koran through the elimination of its context and solid proof. This essential flaw of Progressive Muslim created confusion and divisions within the organization and Submission (Islam). It is like a human body possessing multiple heads each navigating the body in different directions. In order to accomplish this, Progressive Muslim must create doubt on the context of the Koran, and then give everyone authority to recreate and interpreted base on his or her desires.
Doubt is created by eliminating trust on outside sources. For example, previous scriptures, history, scientific facts, mathematical evidence, tradition, context, authority, and other source of information must be proven untrustworthy or deem non-koranic. And although using these as reference and relevant information sources is not forbidden in the Koran (), it must be eliminated in order for a person to redefine salat, zakat, and other tenets. For example, for an artist to recreate an image, he must start on a blank canvas, not one that have been painted and perfected (53). In order for Progressive Muslim to redefine Salat, the canvas must be blank. In other words, history, context, science, mathematical evidence, or any other solid proof must be erased; the canvas must be blank so the individual can recreate their version of Salat.
Now that the canvas is blank (no solid proof or foundation), the individual have authority to created, recreate, or redefine what he or she pleases. Then that person can preach it to the masses as an ?Internet Imam? wheeling their interpretation as correct and authorized (7452).
Progressive Muslims The Quran Alone + Opinions
With a blank canvas (solid proof), narratives of prophets and messengers can just become moral stories reinforcing the ethical message of Islam and not based on factual history. The term ?Quran Alone? can now be used subjectively with a blank canvas. Word within the Koran be become literal with context, everything become view symbolically, and anyone can be a Nabi (prophet) of God. Without solid proof and a blank canvas Progressive Muslim can create their world, there own painting. But like painting, it just optical illusions with no solid proof of the reality.
When one examine the Movement, we quickly learn that term ?Quran Alone? is abused by Progressive Muslims to persuade others on their agenda. Secular opinions and view play heavily with Progressive Muslim Movement. Scholars and reformist opinions play major roles in the movement. Opinion plus the slogan of ?Quran alone? is use to create and redefine. This explain no consensus. They are painting abstract images base on opinions. But like painting, it just optical illusions with no solid proof of the reality.
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peace SHM,
Did you write this?
well, anyway...The answer is simply, Progressive Muslim promote autonomy of the individual in interpreting the Koran through the elimination of its context and solid proof.
No one here promotes eliminating the context and believing in things without solid proof. This is, as mr. bahgat would put it, a "clear cut lie."
And there is no such group as "progressive muslims."
Sorry, what you are saying has no basis in reality.
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the key tenets of Islam (Salat, Zakat, Hajj etc).
Can someone point out to me where in 'al quran' it states these are the "key tenets of Islam". As in actual Quranic evidence... you know, not baseless opinion, I mean actually from The Quran... you know, actual evidence from The Quran.
For a moment there I thought this was a discussion based on baseless opinion.
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Peace,
These are the fundamentals of Islam
006.151
SHAKIR Say Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you-- (remember) that you do not associate anything with Him and show kindness to your parents, and do not slay your children for (fear of) poverty-- We provide for you and for them-- and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed, and do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice; this He has enjoined you with that you may understand.006.152
SHAKIR And do not approach the property of the orphan except in the best manner until he attains his maturity, and give full measure and weight with justice-- We do not impose on any soul a duty except to the extent of its ability; and when you speak, then be just though it be (against) a relative, and fulfill Allah's covenant; this He has enjoined you with that you may be mindful;006.153
SHAKIR And (know) that this is My path, the right one therefore follow it, and follow not (other) ways, for they will lead you away from His way; this He has enjoined you with that you may guard (against evil).This hasn't changed since the Tawrat.
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Can someone point out to me where in 'al quran' it states these are the "key tenets of Islam". As in actual Quranic evidence... you know, not baseless opinion, I mean actually from The Quran... you know, actual evidence from The Quran.
For a moment there I thought this was a discussion based on baseless opinion.
he speaks!!!
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Did you write this?
Yes.
...No one here promotes eliminating the context and believing in things without solid proof....
That is what you think. Think about it, how come no one agrees to anything and everyone is divided. How come no consensus yet everyone have "proof."
And there is no such group as "progressive muslims."
LOL! have you seem the banner of this website forum.....look closely....see where it says in big white fonts "progressivemuslims.org." But there is no such group huh?
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peace SHM,
The thing is, some people use proof, others don't. Some see the truth, others don't see it yet. Only god can guide someone, no one else can. So I don't know how you're suggesting everyone should know the exact truth. We're working on it. All of us, individually, because the search for truth is an individual journey. You do what you know is best, you don't compromise the truth just so you agree with everyone else.
But what you said, that we actually "promote" eliminating context and beliving without proof, well, that's just a bunch of stinky horse manure and you know it. In fact, you're the one who keeps accusing others without any supporting evidence.
And sometimes, two ideas/understandings work just as well, which means there's no need for agreement.About the website banner, well, that's just the name of the site, and maybe some people here do consider themselves part of some kind of group. I don't. And many others don't.
This forum is open to anyone, and anyone can post their views here. We have all sorts of people here. There's no magical spell that converts anyone who joins into a progressive muslim who agrees with Layth on everything.
You can call the forum "ugly athiests" if you want, but that doesn't change anything.
So, SHM, if you want to participate in the forum, please do, but please stop making false accusations. If you hate us as much as satan hates you, then you can stop logging in and life will probably be a lot easier for you. -
Peace "lobster".
You don't have to agree with anyone. It's between you and God. So we must all follow what makes sense to us individually. A consensus is unnecessary and even harmful.
JK-If theres no consensus then how could science possibly progress. Doesnt make any sense. Consensus is an integral part of science for only through consensus REACHED THROUGH INDEPENDENT RESEARCH can lead to a high prob of the truth. If you dont agree with this then your not pro science. GOD Bless!
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An independantly reached consensus is definitely needed, but was the current consensus which happens to be harmful independantly reached? No. It all came from Persia.
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Peace "OPF",
An independantly reached consensus is definitely needed, but was the current consensus which happens to be harmful independantly reached? No. It all came from Persia.
JK- Are you talking about the 5 daily salat theory or other tradiitonal salat? Coz if not then there are many people from UAE, Pakistan India, UK, USA, Germany here who all make contributions. If those havnt come to a consensus yet reg salat then the research needs to continue. GOD Bless!
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I'm talking about the general views on the mythical 5 pillars of Islam. The concepts are there but they are not "pillars". The "pillars" of Islam are laid out clear for all in 6151 - 6153.
This all originated from the hadith, and the hadith come from Persia (I don't even remember reading "5 pillars" in the whole of (summarized) Bukhari however - but that was a summarized copy with 2200 hadith). Yay!
I still don't understand where the two extra prayers come from. Can you post the Quranic verses if they're there please? I'm feeling literally blind as a bat.
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Peace "OPF",
I still don't understand where the two extra prayers come from. Can you post the Quranic verses if they're there please? I'm feeling literally blind as a bat.
JK- Which two extra prayers? I think i mentioned it tht i dont beleive in the five daily salat theory anymore and i dont know whether i cld agree on the three salat theory either. GOD Bless!
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Oh, alright. I guess that question is redirected towards SHM then.
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I'm talking about the sunni, shia, Sufis. Why can't they all agree on this issue. I believe their prayers have differences.
The difference between a sunni and a Shia salat is no minor. The different between a sunni/shia/sufis and a submitter salat is the names mention within it. They all can perform salat together. But different between the salat of one progressive muslim to another progressive muslim can be so major and even the opposite. That is the real division. And that is the real problem.
Honestly, its been four years! No one can find this so call "elusive" salat definition and implementation for four years! When do you get to the point where you realize maybe the definition wasn't wrong?!?
FOUR YEAR PEOPLE. NOT ONE BUT FOUR YEARS! NOT TWO BUT FOUR YEARS!
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Peace "OPF",
JK- Which two extra prayers? I think i mentioned it tht i dont beleive in the five daily salat theory anymore and i dont know whether i cld agree on the three salat theory either. GOD Bless!Brother Tanveer's research, and his conclusion regarding number of salat being 2, seems more plausible.
siki
