"We" vs God Alone
-
Peace,
I looked in Muheetul-Muheeti under Jinn and it has alot of meanings (even jannatun does)
Jannatun (from jannatul-laili) cover/darkeness
Jinnun dhulmatun (darkness), ikhtilaatudhalaami(covering/coming of darkness), most (mu&thamanaasi=jinnunaasi (most people).Al-jinnu the angels (al-malaa'ikatu) just like Jinnatun (ka-jinnatin)
As it concerns the youth or besides the youth (ashabaabu wa ghairuhu) it means the first(or best) and the most recent/youngest (awwaluhu wa hidthaanuhu(plural of hadeeth meaning recent/new))
As it concerns plants it's flowers or its blossoms (wa anabtu zahruhu wa nawruhu).
Jannatun a garden with palms and trees
the expression laa jinna = laa khafaa'a (there's not hiding (it), nothing hidden)
and baitujinnin= below a snowy mountain and the description is jinaaneeyun.Strangely enough I didn't read anything about spirits.
Godbless,
Anwar -
In Urdu language too "I" and "We" is used by one person, when giving command, instructions, orders or telling about some thing big done by him. Some people commonly use "We" instead of "I" even in ordinary conversation.
Brother! i recommend , that you go through the whole thread.(for royal we)
siki
-
Just to revisit this thread, can it be said that if the quran uses its own grammatical constructs, that it is wrong?
In 7156, either the case is made for a trinity, or polytheism, or simply, there is a royal We in use. Since when did other books restrict quranic grammar?
-
Just to revisit this thread, can it be said that if the quran uses its own grammatical constructs, that it is wrong?
In 7156, either the case is made for a trinity, or polytheism, or simply, there is a royal We in use. Since when did other books restrict quranic grammar?
The quraan was revealed in a spoken language. Spoken Arabic does not respect grammar.
-
The quraan was revealed in a spoken language. Spoken Arabic does not respect grammar.
The quran itself disagrees with that? I.e. in 121-2, 413. But more importantly, 4612 is related to the topic, mentioning Moses directly and again, describes it as a book, not just a recital. Evidently it is primarily a book.
So why the hubbub, either way? You have one God equated with a plural, and your answer is that it doesn't follow grammar, why the different case for the other instances of "We" or "Our"?
-
peace
i'm very interested in this 'We','Us',or 'Our' topic.
in some verses it does imply that 'We' does not refer to God359 And God is the One who sends the winds so it stirs up a cloud, then We drive it to a town that is dead, and We revive with it the land after it had died. Such is the resurrection.
3527 Do you not see that God sends down water from the sky, thus We produce with it fruits of various colors? And of the mountains are peaks that are white, red, or some other color and intense black.
but what about these verses
1526 And We have created man from a clay hardened and shaped.
2021 He said "Take it and do not be fearful, We will turn it back to its previous form."
4380 Or do they think that We do not hear their secrets and private counsel? Yes indeed; and Our messengers are with them, recording. -
Peace,
Samia said
The quraan was revealed in a spoken language. Spoken Arabic does not respect grammar.
This is falsehood of the utmost. Just pure and utter falsehood. The written Arabic today was the spoken Arabic of then. (Just as the people during Shakespeares age and the King's James Bible actually spoke that way (on the streets and everything, as opposed to now) The spoken Arabic of today is an invention of the Creolization era where Arabs through contact with non-Arabs formed a creole Arabic which spread and evolved within each different country. Please do not speak these untruths Samia, it cries ignorance. I'm sorry. What you have said above is just wrong, wrong, wrong. Please go listen to Shiekh Sha'rawi or somone from whom you can gleam some truth on these lingustic issues.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
I concur with Tarikh. My take on it is that I's with no sign of quote is Angel Gabriel (God bless him) for instance ("I am the servant of this land" I believe which is in Chpt. 29). Quoted I's are usually God (quotes in Classical Arabic don't have to begin with 'he said or he says' different ways to quote are the use of wa, an, the obvious qaala and just going into the quote after you have mentioned the subject. See the passages of Abraham's quotes (God bless him) in Chpter 2 of the Quran.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Samia said
Quote
The quraan was revealed in a spoken language. Spoken Arabic does not respect grammar.This is falsehood of the utmost. Just pure and utter falsehood. The written Arabic today was the spoken Arabic of then. (Just as the people during Shakespeares age and the King's James Bible actually spoke that way (on the streets and everything, as opposed to now) The spoken Arabic of today is an invention of the Creolization era where Arabs through contact with non-Arabs formed a creole Arabic which spread and evolved within each different country. Please do not speak these untruths Samia, it cries ignorance. I'm sorry. What you have said above is just wrong, wrong, wrong. Please go listen to Shiekh Sha'rawi or somone from whom you can gleam some truth on these lingustic issues.
Godbless,
AnwarThis is the first time during my stay on this forum that I felt disappointed. A man like me , a non Arab with little knowledge of Arabic, after going through the Quran even once, realizes immediately that it is an address/speech by One in front of whom is the gathering of everyone in time and space. A speaker addressing a very large crowd uses spoken language which conveys the message/perception/thought of the Speaker to everyone in a distinct manner.
Do we find the details of "Arabic Grammer" written somewhere before the revelation of Quran? -
Salaam Aleikum,
Here are my 2 cents on the Plural use in the Quran
http//ourbeacon.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=113
-
Salaam Aleikum,
Here are my 2 cents on the Plural use in the Quran
http//ourbeacon.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=113
That was generally my view. Thanks, it was a good read.
This is the first time during my stay on this forum that I felt disappointed. A man like me , a non Arab with little knowledge of Arabic, after going through the Quran even once, realizes immediately that it is an address/speech by One in front of whom is the gathering of everyone in time and space. A speaker addressing a very large crowd uses spoken language which conveys the message/perception/thought of the Speaker to everyone in a distinct manner.
Do we find the details of "Arabic Grammer" written somewhere before the revelation of Quran?It is both a recital and a book. That implies no division between the language into "spoken" and "unspoken". Also, the messenger is declared as a commoner. Unless you wish to say God's usage of "kitab" is erroneous.
-
Also, the messenger is declared as a commoner.{OPF}
Quran does not describe the Messengers of Allah as "a commoner". It is the perception of the arrogant rich people of the societies who tried to convince the people under their influence that the Messenger was a "commoner" like them. In front of their people they even never said "Messenger is like us". they told ordinary, common people "He is like you" and dear OPF today you have also started talking in their tone and manner.
If the speech of a speaker is recorded and written that will also be called a Book. Had the Book not been recorded as a speech none would have ever been able to remember it by heart. Where were the principles of grammer recorded/determined/written before or at the time of revelation of Quran? Any reference!! Who taught the Arabic Grammer to Non Arabs/say people of Persia of that time?
-
Peace,
Samia said
This is falsehood of the utmost. Just pure and utter falsehood. The written Arabic today was the spoken Arabic of then. (Just as the people during Shakespeares age and the King's James Bible actually spoke that way (on the streets and everything, as opposed to now) The spoken Arabic of today is an invention of the Creolization era where Arabs through contact with non-Arabs formed a creole Arabic which spread and evolved within each different country. Please do not speak these untruths Samia, it cries ignorance. I'm sorry. What you have said above is just wrong, wrong, wrong. Please go listen to Shiekh Sha'rawi or somone from whom you can gleam some truth on these lingustic issues.Godbless,
AnwarSalaam Anwar
I would have appreciated seeing "evidence" that the quraan is in classical Arabic, instead of reading accusations from you, and repetition of "wrong, wrong, wrong" without any explanation why it is wrong. We had a similar discussion before and I asked you where you could find a pre quraanic document written in classical Arabic. The only thing you could think of was the so claimed pre islamic poetry! Even if it were really pre islamic, does its language resemble the language of the quraan? I would say spoken Arabic is much nearer to the language of the quraan than this forged pre islamic poetry. The most important proof is the non conformity of the quraan to the rules of grammar set by classical Arabic linguists, as well as the rules for the dual, which are in conformity with the spoken language. Also remember this reply to your questioning of the usage of "maa" in opposition to "lam" to negate a verb
Here I can tell you with confidence that this is the negation used in colloquial arabic for all tenses. Maybe you're right, apart from "maa yazaalu" I can't think of something. But thank you! You just put a further nail on the notion that the qur'aan is in classical Arabic!!
As for spoken Arbic being a "creole", I am really surprised! Do you understand what a creole is? It is not about borrowing words, it is a completely mixture with a different language. We can say "Maltese" is a creole of Arabic. Arabs would not be able to understand it. But saying spoken Arabic is a creole, my question is creole with which language? Does every Arab country has its spoken Arabic mixed up with the languges of its neighbours/colonisers? Then we would not be able to understand each other (with the exception of North African Arabic, which might be nearer to a creole, hence rarely understood by other Arabs). Borrowing in a language does not make it a creole, otherwise we would consider the language of the quraan as "creole" too, since it borrows vocabulary from Greek, Hebrew, Farsi...
-
Why is everyone here having such a hard time with a royal we? Maybe its because most of the people here are from western backgrouds hence the use of such language confuses you. Even in Urdu we use words like "Hum" (we) when the speaker is denoting supremacy over the readers or listeners that are being addressed. Its not that confusing, the angels did not create the world and neither can they forgive sins, when God creates something he says "be" and it is. Allah (swt) is the only one that can forgive peoples sins ad create something from nothing. Angels are not "creators", not even close. peace
-
Salaam Truthonly
First, welcome to the forum!
When someone uses the royal "we" in a speech this person does not shift to "I" or "he". What made people here discuss this is this feature in the quraan (i.e shifting from the "we" to "he" and/or "I".
And BTW, having a western background does not imply ignorance of the "royal we". After all, westerners have kings and queens and the term "royal we" itself is English, so they know it. It is not invented by Arabs or Urdu speakers.