"We" vs God Alone
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explain. hmm
yeah, but there's no project, and god dont need help. god says "be" and it is.Remember! Big bang, 6 days ago and the project universe ? creation of earth day before yesterday? and the entities involved angel ? as well as my friend >D ? In controlling this test bed for training , evaluating/grading the new intelligent program, Nick named "Mr LOBSTER" ? confused No cure for a short memory i guess, Add some RAM bro, ;D
handshake
siki
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Peace,
Now I get your perspective.
What about 238 then? It's a strange verse.
Now, from your perspective, 250 seems more plausible if "angels" are simply "forces of nature" - didn't someone else also come to this?
I think I've had enough of these translations, time to get cracking.
You are definitely right. I believe that Gabriel is what/who God uses to reveal guidance to mankind (he is the trusted spokesman let's say).
This is how I see the passage
We said 'All of you get down (Adam=Humanity which is why this is plural)." (the quote for me stops here, then the rest is directed to all of us) Guidance will surely come to you all through/from me, so whover follows my guidance, will be not subject to fear and will not be said' This is Gabriel talking.
I definitely believe that Angels are natural forces. To get even more into this I believe that some of the angels we can see and some we cannot. "Iblees" was spoken to as an angel (only the angels were commanded to pay homage to Humanity), but in saying he was a jinn that just means that he was a hidden/unseen angel. Not to get too esoteric because I really don't know about this, I have a hunch that the physical world is a composition and cooperation of certain angels and there are others that do other things that we do not see. So infact we do see angels every day we just don't recognize them as so. But Gabriel brings the message that God commanded him to give but is also helped by other angels to make that message manifest into our world of sound, shapes and vibrations. (May God bless his angels as well).
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
Everybody check out 812. Yoohee is in present tense and idh does not have to refer to past tense. 5110 is showing lo in it's future capacity like idhaa, or its capacity as in 'so, then' which is seen more clearly in 1747. Just to note even idhan and idhaa can be used interchangeable see the use of idha in 1518(wa maa kaanoo idhan mundhareena) and 17201 (fa idhaa hum mubsiroona)
Godbless,
Anwar -
Remember! Big bang, 6 days ago and the project universe ? creation of earth day before yesterday? and the entities involved angel ? as well as my friend > ? In controlling this test bed for training , evaluating/grading the new intelligent program, Nick named "Mr LOBSTER" ? confused No cure for a short memory i guess, Add some RAM bro, ;D
handshake
siki
lobster was being sarcastic when he said
and god dont need help. god says "be" and it is.
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Peace,
With all due respect, anyone who has read the Quran enough in Arabic (even in English) knows that the royal we doesn't stand up. Why would God use I in certain places and we in other places (is he less royal at times). There are portions also in the Quran where the we is obviously not God, al-fatiha is the first and most blantant example. As al-fatiha shows and as 4130-31 shows the Gabriel along with other angels revealed the Quran and Gabriel is the narrator. Any other I that relates to God is a direct quote from God.
There is a royal plural in Arabic. I have seen it in literature. You (antum, antunna), I (nahnu). As far as huwa or he referring to I am not sure that this is a royal plural at all ( it is not plural) or a form of royalty but it definitely is an indirect way of referring to oneself.
However again like al-faatiha and the verse about the lord of this city, this is the author of the Quran saying that he is a servant of the lord of this land. The author of the Quran is Gabriel and it is by God's authority and working with other angels that the Quran has been revealed.
Godbless,
AnwarHmm.. Could be but what about verses like
1827 And recite what has been inspired to you from your Lord's Scripture, there is no changing His words, and you will not find besides Him any refuge
1828 And have patience upon yourself regarding those who call their Lord in the morning and evening seeking His direction, and let not your eyes overlook them that you seek the beauty of this worldly life. And do not obey the one whom We have made his heart heedless of Our remembrance and he followed his desire, and his fate was lost.
1829 And Say "The truth is from your Lord, so let whomever desires believe, and whomever desires reject." We have prepared for the wicked a Fire whose walls will be surrounding them. And if they cry out, they are given a water like boiling oil which burns their faces. What a miserable place!
1830 Those who believe and do good works, We do not waste the reward of those who have done well.
Those "we" can still be God's Angels/Servants? Yea it could be we should keep looking at examples.
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Peace,
The 'We' is always relating to the angel's participation. The angels participated in our creation so it will be 'We created' as well as "the Lord created" as God created using the angels. The We is always referring to Gabriel and other angels' participation. God is the creator and the angels are his tools/servants, just as God is the Revealer and the angels are his tools/servants. Gabriel might speak the Quran and the angels may help him reveal the book but it is God's message.
Yes we should keep looking. I have had this in mind for some years now. Maybe about 5 years when very very few people on forums like these even wanted to touch this topic. I actually wrote a page on it on my site and took it off about 3 years ago. I still have it saved in my website maker, it was called 'Who is Speaking.' I wonder if anyone remembers that. I think at that time my site was called objectivetruth.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar n all,
I'm trying to understand this concept. From what I've read it does kinda make sense. I have one question for now.
The 'We' is always relating to the angel's participation. The angels participated in our creation so it will be 'We created' as well as "the Lord created" as God created using the angels.
This sounds okay, for creation and the message. But do the angels also forgive, or participate in the act of forgiving?Thanks peace
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what about 234?
234 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam," so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
angels couldn't possibly be commanding themselves
what about the creation of the human being?
2312 We have created mankind from a structure derived from mud.
3871 For your Lord said to the angels "I am creating a human being from clay."
3872 "So when I have evolved him, and breathed into him from My spirit, then you shall yield to him."
3873 The angels yielded, all of them, -
Peace,
angels couldn't possibly be commanding themselves
what about the creation of the human being?
Why not? Why not certain angels commanding all angels and then following suit?
Zenje,
As far as forgiving, if there is a We there we have to consider it. However, if we are looking at the root &afaa, like thumma &afawnaa &ankum, &afaa is literally to pardon (like to give amnesty, to clear the slate) not to forgive (ghafara).
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace to all,
I have wondered about the We and Us in the Quran for a long time, if you notice, even the old testament uses the same terminology, whether the entire bible is correct or not is another matter, however, in reference to the we and us issue, its pretty clear that the old testament use of us and we is in reference to God talking to his angels. Here are a few verses that clearly show what is meant.
These verses give us a picture of God talking to his heavenly host and in particular a select group of angels. The use of the word "us" in these verses do not indicate other Gods being present whom the one God was talking to. Thus, we can see that the first attempt of the trinitarians to get the pagan doctrine of the trinity into the Bible by false and misleading interpretation of words, segmentalism, meets the criteria of heresy and error.
In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew?Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying "Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me" (Isaiah 81, .
Obviously, "who will go for us" is God talking to his heavenly angels. Seeing this vision, Isaiah does not give the angels time to respond, he cries out to the one God upon the throne "Here am I, send me."Isaiah said "Here am I" not "Here I am". To say "Here I am" indicates location, whereas to say "Here am I" is a statement of availability to do the will of God.
It is the will of God that you believe in One God. Will you go for the Lord God to all nations or to a friend and tell them there is one Lord, one Faith, and one religion for all mankind?
Kurt
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Peace,
Kurt I have noticed this in some of the Old testament verses as well. However, for now I'd rather stick the Classical Arabic and the Quranic usage. There could be a number of explanations for this We in the Bible logically and as it relates to the linguistics of Hebrew and Aramaic. However, we are not at a vantage point when it comes to discussing Hebrew and Aramaic linguistics here nor should we assume that these Hebrew and Aramaic linguistics also apply to the Quran.
I can come up with reasons for why God would say We in other contexts outside the Quran like if he asked His loyalists after they have been attacked 'Who will avenge us?' However in the Quran there are obvious contexts where the We cannot be God.
Al-faatiha is one and 'I am servant of the Lord of this land' is another.Godbless,
Anwar -
what about 234?
234 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam," so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
angels couldn't possibly be commanding themselves
what about the creation of the human being?
2312 We have created mankind from a structure derived from mud.
3871 For your Lord said to the angels "I am creating a human being from clay."
3872 "So when I have evolved him, and breathed into him from My spirit, then you shall yield to him."
3873 The angels yielded, all of them,Intersting find Bro , gives us an important clue regarding "entities" other than angel angel and >D, who are part of the system, and probably were/are responsible for handling angel angel, now or were in the previous/parallal/hidden universe.
siki
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Zenje,
As far as forgiving, if there is a We there we have to consider it. However, if we are looking at the root &afaa, like thumma &afawnaa &ankum, &afaa is literally to pardon (like to give amnesty, to clear the slate) not to forgive (ghafara).
Godbless,
AnwarYou are right, the word used in 252 is afawnaa and not ghafara, but even so, I feel this is not for other than the God in that situation.
- And We appointed a meeting time for Moses of forty nights, but then you took the calf after him while you were wicked.
- Then We forgave you after that, perhaps you would be thankful.
IMHO even if you used 'pardon', it still seems an awesome feet for Gabriel and company to do, considering downright idolatory that was done by the people. But, I'm not dismissing it yet, I'll look into it further and see if I come up with something else. Thanks for the interesting insight. )
Peace
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If we take this stance, then it becomes clearer. The Quran is a narrative made by entities who call themselves "We" (hehe) seeking to guide mankind and uphold God. If you notice, "We" is very very very close to nature and humans in general
002.060
YUSUFALI And remember Moses prayed for water for his people; We said "Strike the rock with thy staff." Then gushed forth therefrom twelve springs. Each group knew its own place for water. So eat and drink of the sustenance provided by Allah, and do no evil nor mischief on the (face of the) earth.002.056
YUSUFALI Then We raised you up after your death Ye had the chance to be grateful.
PICKTHAL Then We revived you after your extinction, that ye might give thanks.
SHAKIR Then We raised you up after your death that you may give thanks.002.057
YUSUFALI And We gave you the shade of clouds and sent down to you Manna and quails, saying "Eat of the good things We have provided for you" (But they rebelled); to us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls.002.058
YUSUFALI And remember We said "Enter this town, and eat of the plenty therein as ye wish; but enter the gate with humility, in posture and in words, and We shall forgive you your faults and increase (the portion of) those who do good."Whereas God is relatively distant from humans.
Clearly, "We" is responsible for the closer guardianship of man and whatnot.
002.049
YUSUFALI And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.002.050
YUSUFALI And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight.But conversely
008.017
YUSUFALI It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).The whole surah, aside from this verse supports this viewpoint. Would it make sense if I wrote "Obey OPF and his messengers"? Or would it make more sense to say "Obey me and my messengers"?
But this is clearly from God
002.040
YUSUFALI O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.
PICKTHAL O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you, and fulfil your (part of the) covenant, I shall fulfil My (part of the) covenant, and fear Me.
SHAKIR O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to (your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid.002.041
YUSUFALI And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
PICKTHAL And believe in that which I reveal, confirming that which ye possess already (of the Scripture), and be not first to disbelieve therein, and part not with My revelations for a trifling price, and keep your duty unto Me.
SHAKIR And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.002.042
YUSUFALI And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
PICKTHAL Confound not truth with falsehood, nor knowingly conceal the truth.
SHAKIR And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it).002.043
YUSUFALI And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your heads with those who bow down (in worship).
PICKTHAL Establish worship, pay the poor-due, and bow your heads with those who bow (in worship).
SHAKIR And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those who bow down.002.044
YUSUFALI Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?
PICKTHAL Enjoin ye righteousness upon mankind while ye yourselves forget (to practise it)? And ye are readers of the Scripture! Have ye then no sense?
SHAKIR What! do you enjoin men to be good and neglect your own souls while you read the Book; have you then no sense?002.045
YUSUFALI Nay, seek (Allah's) help with patient perseverance and prayer It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,-
PICKTHAL Seek help in patience and prayer; and truly it is hard save for the humble-minded,
SHAKIR And seek assistance through patience and prayer, and most surely it is a hard thing except for the humble ones,002.046
YUSUFALI Who bear in mind the certainty that they are to meet their Lord, and that they are to return to Him.
PICKTHAL Who know that they will have to meet their Lord, and that unto Him they are returning.
SHAKIR Who know that they shall meet their Lord and that they shall return to Him.002.047
YUSUFALI Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other (for My Message).
PICKTHAL O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you and how I preferred you to (all) creatures.
SHAKIR O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.You are right, the word used in 252 is afawnaa and not ghafara, but even so, I feel this is not for other than the God in that situation.
- And We appointed a meeting time for Moses of forty nights, but then you took the calf after him while you were wicked.
- Then We forgave you after that, perhaps you would be thankful.
IMHO even if you used 'pardon', it still seems an awesome feet for Gabriel and company to do, considering downright idolatory that was done by the people. But, I'm not dismissing it yet, I'll look into it further and see if I come up with something else. Thanks for the interesting insight. )
Peace
Whoever "We" is, "We" has the power to pardon. Humans also have the power to pardon, remember that. Maybe "We" pardoned them but God didn't
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opf
Nice work bro, suggest you work on it , and enlighten us all.
siki
With all due respect, it's Progod's work P
The way I see this, considering that "We" is very close to nature, we might be able to verify the Quran once and for all!