ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[SarahY]

brickwall I feellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll so ANNOYED!

Read people

459 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

so the argument comes, obeying God is following the Quran.

So that leaves obeying the messenger, now how do you obey the messenger if obeying God is obeying the Quran??

What verses say the messengers job is to deliver the message not demonstrate the message?

How can you prove that following the messenger is within the Quran????

salam

[unknownuser]

7188 - YUSUFALI Say "I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as Allah willeth. If I had knowledge of the unseen, I should have multiplied all good, and no evil should have touched me I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings to those who have faith."

567 - SHAKIR O Messenger! deliver what bas been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.

599 - SHAKIR Nothing is (incumbent) on the Messenger but to deliver (the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide.

Now, obeying the messenger is simple. If their task is ONLY to deliver and warn, you obey his/her warnings. The warnings are centred on that which is delivered - and it all comes back to the Quran. Likewise, you are to obey those charged with authority - IF THEY CONFORM TO THE QURAN as in that verse. As in 567, it is God's job to guide.

6104-106

And the most important herein

075.016
YUSUFALI Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith.
PICKTHAL Stir not thy tongue herewith to hasten it.
SHAKIR Do not move your tongue with it to make haste with it,

075.017
YUSUFALI It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it
PICKTHAL Lo! upon Us (resteth) the putting together thereof and the reading thereof.
SHAKIR Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.

075.018
YUSUFALI But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated)
PICKTHAL And when We read it, follow thou the reading;
SHAKIR Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.

075.019
YUSUFALI Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear)
PICKTHAL Then lo! upon Us (resteth) the explanation thereof.
SHAKIR Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it.

075.020
YUSUFALI Nay, (ye men!) but ye love the fleeting life,
PICKTHAL Nay, but ye do love the fleeting Now
SHAKIR Nay! But you love the present life,

075.021
YUSUFALI And leave alone the Hereafter.
PICKTHAL And neglect the Hereafter.
SHAKIR And neglect the hereafter.

[Twilight]

Although I didn't ask the question, thanks for your explanation OPF. I've been stuggling with that and wondering why it wasn't just 'Obey Allah' (which would mean obey the Quran)...especially if it means the same thing by Obey Allah and obey the Messenger'. I'm unsure but it seems to leave it open a little bit so the sunni point of view can seep through, suggesting that we need to accept the hadiths to obey the Messenger. May Allah guide us all.

[unknownuser]

Peace all,

The messenger is the one who told his people that the Qur'aan is from The God, so to obey The God by following the Qur'aan, one has to obey the messenger when the Qur'aan came to us through him. The messenger himself has been ordered to follow only the Qur'aan and to judge only according to the Qur'aan.

The Qur'aan is fully detailed and complete (6114-115, 12111, 1712), contains every example (1789, 3927) and clear explanation of everything (1689) relevant to our guidance to the straight path and is enough for our guidance (2951) and the Prophet followed only the Qur'aan (1015, 4105).

All the relevant examples and hadeeth necessary for our guidance can be found in the Qur'aan. Many times in the Qur'aan, the messenger is asked to say something to others, and then he said that to others, and thus it becomes his hadeeth. When we follow such ayaat, we are actually obeying the messenger also.

The Qur'aan is the best "hadeeth"

3923 God has sent down the best HADEETH (ahsana alhadeethi), a Scripture that is similar with two paths. The skins of those who reverence their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is God's guidance; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whomever God misguides, then none can guide him.

What will be your answer to the question asked by The God in the following signs

487 God, there is no god but He. He will gather you for the Day of Resurrection in which there is no doubt. Who is more truthful in HADEETH than God?

7185 Did they not look at the dominion of heavens and Earth, and all that God has created? Perhaps their time is drawing near; so in which HADEETH after this one will they believe?

456 These are God's revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which HADEETH after God and His revelations do they believe?

6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have another book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?

7750 So in what HADEETH after it will they believe?

The people who accept baseless "hadeeth" to mislead from the path of The God will have a humiliating retribution

316 And from the people, there are those who accept baseless HADEETH (lahwa alhadeethi) to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and they take it as entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.

We should disregard the fabrications and fancy words "inspired" in each other by the enemies of the Prophet and falsely attributed to him

6112 And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and jinn devils, to inspire in each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.

The above sign also implies that The God deliberately allowed the existence of the fabricated "hadeeth" to test the people whether they follow The God's words or the words of human and jinn devils and their desires !

Adding something to the message is similar to changing it. THE PROPHET NEVER CONTRADICTED OR ADDED TO THE QUR'AANIC DETAILS. He followed only the Qur'aan and was ordered by The God to judge only according to the Qur'aan.

1015 And when Our clear revelations are recited to them, those who do not wish to meet Us said "Bring a Qur'an other than this, or change it!" Say "It is not for me to change it of my own accord, I merely follow what is inspired to me. I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the retribution of a great day!"

650 Say "I do not say to you that I possess God's treasures, nor do I know the future, nor do I say to you that I am an angel. I merely follow what is inspired to me." Say "Are the blind and the seer the same? Do you not think?"

7203 And because you do not bring them a sign, they say "If only you had brought one." Say "I only follow what is inspired to me from my Lord. This is an evidence from your Lord, and a guide and mercy to a people who believe."

469 Say "I am no different from the other messengers, nor do I know what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is inspired to me. I am no more than a clear warner"

According to 469 above, Prophet Muhammad said that he was no different from the other messengers; what did the other messenger say ?

4623 He said "The knowledge of it is with God; and I only convey to you what I was sent with. However, I see that you are a people who are ignorant."

Adding something to the Qur'aanic message is attributing something falsely to The God.

6944 And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
6945 We would have seized him by the right.
6946 Then, We would have severed his life-line.
6947 None of you would be able to prevent it.

The prophet was ordered to judge only according to the Qur'aan

4105 We have revealed to you the Scripture with truth that you may judge between the people by that which God has shown you, and do not be an advocate for the treacherous.

548 And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.

549 And judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their wishes, and beware lest they divert you away from some of what God has sent down to you. If they turn away, then know that God wants to inflict them with some of their sins; and most of the people are corrupt.

6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

Just because the majority is doing something or following something does not necessarily mean it is the truth

6116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God's path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

They continue to follow their fathers, instead of following The God's words

2170 And if they are told "Follow what God has sent down," they say "No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!" What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?

Following is a reminder to those who do not consider The God enough for their guidance

3936 Is God not enough for His servant? And they frighten you with others beside Him. And whomever God sends astray, then for him there will be no guide.

WE ARE CLEARLY TOLD TO BELIEVE ONLY THOSE HADEETH THAT ARE FOUND IN THE QUR'AAN !!

All other so called "hadeeth" and "sunnah" are UNVERIFIABLE HEARSAY and UNVERIFIABLE ACTIONS and many CONTRADICT each other. Just look at the various sects ....... each of them claims that the "hadeeth" accepted by them are the right ones, even when those so called "hadeeth" contradict each other between the various sects and even within their own sect !! How are you going to obey the messenger through those UNVERIFIABLE HEARSAY AND ACTIONS when you cannot be sure that the messenger actually said or did those things ?

The MOST FAMOUS so called "hadeeth" was supposedly narrated in front of 10,000 people and STILL HAS 3 CONTRADICTORY VERSIONS in the "sahih" books. The messenger is reported to have said

1. Follow the Qur'aan only
2. Follow the Qur'aan and my sunnah
3. Follow the Qur'aan and my family

WHICH ONE WILL YOU FOLLOW ?

Those who believe in the fabricated hadeeth as revelation from The God are inventing lies about The God and also denying His revelations and they will have a terrible retribution

621 And who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God, or denies His revelations! The wicked will never succeed.

6157 Or you say "If the Scripture was sent to us we would have been more guided than they!" Clarity has come to you from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy. Who is more wicked than one who denies God's revelations and turns away from them? We will punish those who turn away from Our revelations with the pain of retribution for what they turned away.

737 Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God, or denies His revelations? These will receive their recompense from the record; so that when Our messengers come to terminate their lives, they will say "Where are those whom you used to call on besides God?" they said "They have abandoned us!" and they bore witness upon themselves that they were rejecters.

1017 Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God or denies His revelations? The criminals will never succeed.

[SarahY]

Salam

Thank you for replying let me address an argument about the verse

"459 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day That is best, and most suitable for final determination."

Ok the Quran states it is complete, all muslims would say yes it is complete. Now I have a friend who believes it is complete and all the sets of rules are in it and also according to the above verse it allows more rules to be followed - following the Messenger from hadiths that don't contradict the Quran and also those in authority like governments.

How would you reply to that?

I mentioned already the messengers duty and if that is the messengers duty than following the Quran is following the messenger by following the messenger you obey God.. then the argument comes in as

It says "obey Allah and obey the messenger" if God meant the same thing why would it be written like that. The emphasis on the "and" then i get told "Do you believe God has a bad sense of grammar". brickwall Basically mocking my beliefs anyway I think I give up giveup I'm not eloquent enough to express my understandings and beliefs.

salam

[AlFajr]

Peace
The Quran also says God will protect his message. He only protected the Quran which is clear when you see all the contradictions in hadith.

Al

[Jack]

obeying the messenger is alive messengers, you can't obey dead messengers who can't speak. And you certainly can't obey messengers through 3rd person views which is naive to think its still the 'messenger'

[Jack]

So that leaves obeying the messenger, now how do you obey the messenger if obeying God is obeying the Quran??

also how did the quran get here? did god sent down a magic book that fell from the sky? no it was through 'the messenger' therefore obeying the messenger is also obeying God. The messenger delivers God's messages, this is all over the quran that the messenger's job is only to deliver

and why do you only obey muhammad if he's the one supposed to be obeyed, why not jesus too? and if i wanna obey lot, saleh, etc... how am i gonna obey them?

[unknownuser]

Peace all,

Good points brother DArgento.

Just to add

TOP 5 EXPLANATIONS FOR OBEYING THE GOD AND OBEYING THE MESSENGER

1. If it had only said obey The God, then people could have denied the Qur'aan and refused to follow it because it came through the messenger. Then they could have justified following ANYTHING THEY THOUGHT TO BE WORD OF GOD for obeying The God.

2. Following the Qur'aan is both obeying The God AND obeying the messenger, because it contains the true hadeeth of the messenger (those signs that address the messenger and start with "say", ordering the messenger to say those signs to his people, thus becoming his hadeeth).

3. Following the Qur'aan is both obeying The God AND obeying the messenger because the messenger followed only the Qur'aan and judged by using only the Qur'aan as I showed in my post above.

4. It does not say obey Muhammad, but says obey the messenger which refers to both the Prophet (generally) and the Qur'aan (in one instance)

6510-11 God has prepared for them a severe retribution. Therefore, you shall be aware of God, O you who possess intelligence and believed. God has sent down to you a remembrance, a messenger that declares/conveys to you God's revelations, which are clear, to lead those who believe and work righteousness out of the darkness into the light. Anyone who believes in God and does good works, He will admit him into paradises with rivers flowing beneath; they abide therein forever. God has granted for him and excellent reward.

There is no "wa"/and between "zikr"/reminder/remembrance and "rasool"/messenger in the above signs, indicating that the "zikr" (referring to the Qur'aan) is being called the messenger.

5. How will you determine the 100 % authentic hadeeth and examples of the messenger nowadays in order to obey the messenger ? Hint answer The God's questions in 487, 7185, 456, 6837-38 and 7750, and read the warnings in 316 and 6944-47, and the advice in 6116, 2170, and 3936. (see my above post)

[arnoldyasin]

I have written a small article on Obeying the Prophet

http//ourbeacon.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=546

Tasreef of the term 'Obey the Messenger'

The traditionalist view

Proof of the importance of the Sunnah

1. The Quran speaks of the importance of the Sunnah, for example

(a) Allah says He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah (an-Nisa 80) Allah described obedience to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as being a part of obedience to Him. Then He made a connection between obedience to Him and obedience to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (an-Nisa 59)

(b) Allah warns us not to go against the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), and states that whoever disobeys him will be doomed to eternal Hell. Allah says And let those who oppose the Messengers commandment beware, lest some fitnah (trial, affliction, etc.) befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them. (an-Nur 63)

(c) Allah has made obedience to His Prophet a religious duty; resisting or opposing it is a sign of hypocrisy But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission. (an-Nisa 65)

(d) Allah commands His servants to respond to Him and His Messenger O you who believe! Answer Allah (by obeying Him) and (His) Messenger when he calls you to that which will give you life (al-Anfal 24)

(e) Allah also commands His servants to refer all disputes to him (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (an-Nisa 59)

What Allah says about the Quran in the Quran

-There is no doubt in this Book (22).
-Allah has taken the responsibility to explain it (7519).
-Allah says He has revealed the Quran and He will protect it (159).
-Allahs revelation to the Prophet (PBUH) is written in the Quran (619). There is no verse in the Quran which says that Allahs revelation to the Prophet (PBUH) is outside the Quran.
-Momineen are asked to obey the revelation from Allah (73).
-The Prophet (PBUH) was asked to obey the revelation sent down on him (10109).
-He was asked to follow the Quran (751.
-Allah required the Prophet (PBUH) to follow the blessed Book sent down on him (6155).
-The Prophet (PBUH) used to judge matters according to the revelation sent down on him (54.
-Those who do not judge matters according to what Allah has revealed are Kaafirs (544).
-In the Quran, Allah has completed His message and no one can change anything in it (634, 6115).
-The Quran encompasses the message of earlier revelations (54. So, the truth of earlier revelations is now contained in the Quran.
-In it there are no contradictions (482).
-Allah has called the Quran "Tibyaanan li Kulli Shaiyin (1689)". This means it explains everything.
-Allah gives many verses on a particular topic over and over again (6105, 1741). This means that we have to collect all the verses on a topic in order to understand it fully. This is the Divine method of understanding the Quran.
-The Prophet (PBUH) was required to solve all human differences through the Quran (1664).
-The Prophet (PBUH) was required to admonish and remind people through the Quran (5045).
-The Quran itself is light (515). So, it is not dependent on another source of light.
-This light (i.e., the Quran) has been given so that human beings, using this light, can travel safely on the path of life (6122).
-Allah undertook the responsibility to collect the Quran (7517).
-Whatever difference human beings have, the decision is with Allah (4210).

What do we know about the Quran, and what do we know about Hadith and Sunnah

-The Quran is the final word of God.
-It has been preserved exactly as it was revealed to the Prophet (PBUH).
-The Prophet (PBUH) left only the Quran in written form since he forbade writing of hadith during his life time (Sahih Al-Muslim).
-The Quran was written by very honorable scribes (8016).
-There were many companions who had memorized the entire Quran word by word.
-Unlike the authenticity of hadith, there is no dispute among scholars (Sunni or Shiia) about the authenticity of the Quranic verses.
-There are six Sunni books of hadith which are normally referred to as "sahha sitta" (six true books). Shiias have their own four important books of -hadith. These were compiled and written based on (a chain of) oral narration mostly in the third century Hijrah or later.
-Scholars agree that the chain of narrators transmitted the meaning of hadith and not the exact words of the Prophet (PBUH).
-It is generally agreed that the chain of narrators, no matter how reliable, were humans and subject to human errors. Consequently, their narrations -are subject to errors. The Quran is the only Book beyond error.
-As a consequence, ahadith are classified into several categories starting from "correct" on one side to "coined" on the other. (Verses of the Quran do not have such classification.)
-Shiia scholars do not accept Sunni books of hadith. Even among the Sunnis, there are some ahadith which are accepted as correct by one group of scholars (Ahlul-Hadith, for example) but not by other groups (like Ahlul Fiqh and others).
-The authenticity of hadith is not equal to the authenticity of the verses of the Quran.
-"The sayings of the Prophet (PBUH) and the sayings we find in the books of ahadith are not necessarily one and the same." (Maulana Maududi, Rasayel-o-Massayel, Volume I, 1951 edition, page 270).

-Sahih Bukhari This was compiled by Imam Muhammad Ismail Bukhari. He was born in Bukhara and died near Samarqand in 256 A.H. (or in 260 A.H.). It is said that he collected about 600,000 ahaadith. From these he selected about 7,300 for his book, having discarded the rest.
-Sahih Muslim This was compiled by Imam Muslim Bin Hujjaj. He was born in 204 A.H. in the famous Iranian city of Nishapur and died in 261 A.H. He collected about 300,000 ahaadith and selected 4,348 for his book.
-Tirmidhi This was compiled by Imam Abu Isa Muhammad Tirmidhi. He was born in the Iranian city of Tirmidh in 209 A.H. and died in 279 A.H.. He collected 300,000 ahaadith and selected 3,115.
-Abu Daawood He was born in 202 A.H. in the Iranian city of Sistaan and died in 275 A.H. He collected 500,000 ahaadith and kept only 4,800 in his book.
-Ibn Maaja This was compiled by Imam Abu Abdullah Muhammad Bin Zayd Ibn Maaja. He was from the Iranian city of Qazwin. He was born in 209 A.H. and died in 273 A.H. He collected 400,000 ahaadith and selected only 4,000 for his book.
-Nisayee This was compiled by Imam Abdul Rahman Nisayee. He was born in the village of Nisa in the province of Khurasaan in Iran. He died in 303 A.H. He collected 200,000 and selected 4,321 for his book.

Traditional Islam refers to that we must obey Allah AND the Messenger, but they forgot this important verse

459. O you who believe, obey God and the Prophet and those in authority among you; and if you are at variance over something, refer it to God and the Messenger, if you believe in God and the Last Day. This is good for you and the best of settlement.

So we now have these very important issues gained from our research

1. The Quran contains the complete timeless Code of Law for the Islamic Ummah.
2. No outside Revelation is given to the Messenger, only the Quran.
3. We must obey the Messenger.
4. We must obey the Leaders of the Islamic State.

So to what realm does obeying the Messenger refer too? Muhammed was the ruler of the Islamic State. People had to swear an oath to accept him as their leader, he was chosen

6012 O Prophet! When believing women come unto you taking oath of
allegiance to you (they shall pledge that they will) -

• Not associate anyone with Allah.
• Not steal the rights of others.
• Not commit immodesty.
• Neither kill their children, nor deprive them of good rearing.
• Not indulge in fabricating slander, either overtly or covertly.
• Not disobey you in the Quranic Values.

When they have made the pledge, accept their allegiance and ask Allah to
bestow upon them the protection of forgiveness. For, behold, Allah is
the Protector, Ever giving for those who strive for it.

So this means the first Muslims were asked to obey Muhammed as a leader of the Islamic State, these decisions were made due to circumstances that they encountered in their time. These were always in line with the Quranic Values. But since their circumstances were truly circumstances of the 6th century in Arabia, these are timebounded and mostly cannot be used for modern times. Just like custom is timebound, as it is dependent on the knowledge of its age. So Sunnah does not refer to the custom of the Prophet, but to the bye-laws of the Islamic State that is determined according to its need of its time. This can refer to large matters as taxes to small matters as hygiene, which is determined by the situation and knowledge of the time.

To keep holding on to customs which have turned obselete is non-Quranic and illogical, and makes it dangerous to see these customs as Divine. This behaviour can be seen in the Quran

728 (As an example) when people commit an indecency they say, "We found our forefathers doing it and Allah has enjoined it upon us." (Made it natural for us). Say (O Prophet), "Allah never enjoins indecency. Do you attribute to Allah of which you have no knowledge?"

Obedience to the Messenger refers to POLITICAL obedience, after the death of the Prophet, this obedience is shifted to the Khalif that comes after him, and so on and so on. This is why the Quran says

3144 Remember that Muhammad is only a Messenger. The Messengers before him have passed on. So, if he died or were slain, would you turn about on your heels? But he that turns about his heels, would not at all harm Allah. And Allah will soon reward those who remain appreciative (for Guidance. They shall reap the fruit of the Benevolent System here and then, in the Hereafter 3101, 3185, 3510).

Obeying the Prophet can thus not be done anymore. This is why the first generations of Muslims did not write down any sayings of the Prophet, as his ruling was replaced by his succesor. And so obeying the Prophet has shifted towards obeying the chosen Khalif and Shura, counsel. This obedience can only be done in an Islamic State that upholds the Quran as its only rule of Law, and only upholds bye-laws that are in line with present needs of the Ummah and the Quranic Values.

So the obedience the traditionalists refer too is non-Quranic and based on Jewish Theology, where the obedience is only on an religious level, and can be thus followed under any non-Islamic form of State. This concept is false, as Islam can only be truly followed under a pure Islamic State. There is no State on Earth that has a Law System that does not contradict with the Quran and the need of its people. As long as there is no chosen Khalif and Law System that is in line with the Quranic Values, the obedience of the Prophet/Leaders has no value and is impossible.

This view is supported abundantly by the Holy Quran. The Quranic arguments may be summarised below

1. In Islam obedience is essentially and basically due only to the Laws of Allah as embodied in the Holy Quran. "Shall I (Rasoolullah, PBUH) look for a judge other than Allah. He who has revealed to you a book defining things clearly"? (6/115).

2. He who does not adjudicate in accordance with the Holy Quran is not a Muslim (5/44).

3. Obedience to Divine Laws is not a thing belonging to the individual plane in the sense that one might, of his own, consult the Holy Quran, interpret it for himself and act according to his individual interpretation. The obedience has to be disciplined and ordered under an organised system (called State in the present day terminology) controlled by a central authority, the first central authority having been Allah's Rasool. Obedience to the central authority is obedience to Allah. Says the Holy Quran "One who obeys the Rasool obeys Allah" (4/80), the Rasool adjudging everything according to the Holy Book (5/4.

4. Barring a few exceptions, the Holy Quran enunciates generally fundamental principles without touching subsidiary law. About these principles or the basic provisions, the Holy Quran says "The Kalema (basic principle) revealed by the Nourisher has been made complete in truth and justice. There is none who can change His principles (6/116).

5. The reason for leaving out subsidiary laws from the Holy Quran has been explained thus "Ask not for things which if revealed would inconvenience you, and if you ask for them while the Quran is being revealed, they will be disclosed to you....Before you a people (the Israelites) did ask for them and then disbelieved (and defied) them". (5/101-2). In elucidation of the above verses, a Hadith is cited which says "Allah has placed on you certain obligations, do not violate them. Some things have been forbidden, do not go near them. Some limitations have been imposed, do not transgress them. Some things have been left unspoken of without being overlooked, do not probe into them".

6. The question as to how details, which have deliberately been left undetermined in the Holy Quran, will be formulated in the light of the Quranic principles, is answered by the direction given in the Holy Quran to Rasoolullah (PBUH) to "consult them (the believers) in the affairs (of the Society)" (3/15.

There are numerous instances recorded in Traditions showing how Rasoolullah (PBUH) consulted his Companions in the day-today affairs. This process of consultation was not confined to any particular sphere but covered all matters in which details were not given in the Holy Quran.

7. While he lived, Rasoolullah determined subsidiary laws in consultation with the Ummat. The question is as to what was to be done after his demise. The Holy Quran answers the question by saying, "Muhammad is but a Rasool. there have been several Rasool before him. Will you turn back on your heels if he dies or is slain?" (3/143). It follows that the process of framing laws within the frame-work of the Quranic principles was not to discontinue after the death of Rasoolullah but was to go on as before. Therefore, after his demise, the first thing the Companions did was to elect a Successor so that he could carry on the process of determining subsidiary laws and enforcing Divine Principles as did Rasoolullah himself. "One who obeys the Rasool obeys Allah" now took the form of "One who obeys the Rasool's successor obeys Allah". Rasoolullah himself is reported to have said "You have to follow my practice and the practice of my mature and rightly guided Successors", (Mishkat chapter on adherence to Book and Sunnah). The Holy Quran directed Rasoolullah to "consult the believers in determining the affairs of the people" (3/15; it guided his successors by saying "and they determine their affairs by mutual consultation" (42/3. "Mutual consultation" within the ambit of the eternal and inviolable Laws given in the Holy Quran is the "way of the believers" (4/115) which should never be given up.

8. There is material available in the record of traditions of Rasoolullah and the doings of his Companions to show how subsidiary laws were formulated under the Khilafat-e-Rashida. The procedure followed was

a) Where subsidiary law had not already been framed it was formulated by mutual consultation. For example no punishment was prescribed for drunkenness in the time of Rasoolullah. Hazrat Abu Bakr prescribed for it forty stripes, which Hazrat Umar later increased to eighty.

b) If a subsidiary law once enacted needed no amendment or change it was retained intact, just as any constitutional government would continue to enforce the laws of its predecessors until the need for a change arose.

c) Subsidiary enactments, which needed amendment in consequence of a change in circumstances, were duly modified. Since they were not prescribed initially by Revelation, it was not necessary that they should undergo changes through Revelation. Here are a few instances

-Rasoolullah had fixed the amount of ransom for prisoners of war at one Deenar per head. Hazrat Umar fixed different amounts for different parts of the State.
-Rasoolullah (PBUH) did not prescribe rates of Zakat for different varieties of produce of land. Hazrat Umar did so.
-For Taleef-i-Quloob, Rasoolullah used to give financial assistance from the State Exchequer. Hazrat Umar discontinued the practice.
-Rasoolullah distributed among the fighters the land acquired in certain conquered areas. Hazrat Umar abrogated this system.
-Rasoolullah allowed maintenance allowance at uniform rate. Hazrat Abu Bakr continued the practice. But Hazrat Umar re-fixed the rates in proportion to the services rendered by recipients.
-Rasoolullah did not realise Zakat on tradable horses and the produce of the sea. Hazrat Umar did it.
-Hazrat Umar decided that the scheduled punishment for offences should be made light for belligerents and that the punishment of manusection for theft should not be inflicted on the famine-stricken.

Instances of this kind can be multiplied if those measures are taken into account which Hazrat Umar introduced initially. Their number, according to historians, ranges between forty and fifty. This number, however, is not the issue. The real issue is that the rightly guided Successors of Rasoolullah accepted and worked according to the principle that the decisions taken during the time of Rasoolullah could be modified, if the changed circumstances so demanded. They extended the principle to the decisions taken among themselves, and a Successor felt no hesitation in amending the decisions of his predecessor.

[arnoldyasin]

Another example

IMAM ABU HANIFA

The verses of the Holy Quran coupled with the evidence provided by traditions and history, reproduced above, support fully the view that it is the fundamental law of the holy Quran which is unchangeable. In the case of subsidiary laws formulated under it, the Islamic state constituted on the pattern of that of Rasoolullah, can affect changes to suit its current requirements. In the excerpt from his Lectures noted above, Iqbal has pointedly mentioned Imam Abu Hanifa and Shah Waliullah, Muhaddith of Delhi, who also supported the above view. In volume 13, page 390, of his book on history, Khatib Baghdadi states on the strength of Yusuf b. Isbat that Abu Hanifa used to say that "had I been a contemporary of Rasoolullah, I am sanguine that he would have adopted many of my views, since Din (Allah's way of Life) is, after all, but another name for good and sound reasoning". The historian goes on to say that Abu Awana stated that "One day I was sitting by Abu Hanifa when the Sultan's messenger called on him and said that his master would like to know how the case of a man who has stolen a honey-comb should be adjudged. Abu Hanifa replied promptly `if the value of the honey-comb be ten dirhams sever his hand'. After the messenger had departed I said to Abu Hanifa "Are you not afraid of Allah? It has been reported to me by Yahya b. Said through Muhammad b. Haban and Rafi b. Khudaij, that Rasoolullah had said that for the theft of trifles like fruit and flowers, there can be no manusection. Hasten to help the man lest his hand be severed". Abu Hanifa reiterated calmly that "the view then taken has since lost its force". The thief suffered manusection.

Allah clearly told us that He gave Mohammad Al Kitab wa Al Hikmah and also other things that he never knew before, one of those things that humans didn?t know is how to perform the Salat for example, therefore Mohammad mission was to deliver those things to us in addition to the Quran and Hikmah as we will read in the Quran, let me start with verse 4113

Answer

The Quran tells us in some verses that the messenger was to give the knowledge of Al-Kitab? and Al-Hikmah?, i.e. the Book and the Wisdom. Al-Kitab? or The Book refers to the Quran while Al-Hikmah? or The Wisdom, is something other than the Qur?an and it is the un-recited, hidden revelation which the messenger received outside of the Quran and which is contained in the Books of traditions.

CLARIFICATION

When the Quran gives a concept then it does not leave it hanging in the air, but it also defines that concept. It is stated in certain verses of the Quran that the messenger of Allah was to give the knowledge of Al-Kitab? and Hikmah?. Now the Quran will itself define what is Al-Kitab, i.e. The Book or written laws, and what consists of Hikmah i.e. wisdom. The following verses inform us

"Our Sustainer! and raise up in them a messenger from among them who shall recite to them your verses and give them knowledge of The Book and the wisdom, and proivide development to their personalities; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise." (2129)

"Certainly Allah conferred a favour upon the believers when He raised among them a messenger from among themselves, reciting to them His verses and providing development to their personalities, and giving them the knowledge of the Book and the wisdom, although before that they were surely in manifest error." (3164)

In the above and many similar verses it is mentioned that the messenger is to give knowledge of the Book and the wisdom. The Book or Al-Kitab, refers to the Quran, as this is clarified in many other verses itself, e.g.

"Alif Lam Mim. That is The Book, (Al-Kitab) there is no perplexity in it, guidance to those who guard (against evil)." (21-2)

"And recite what has been revealed to you of the Book (Al-Kitab) of your Sustainer.." (1827)

But traditionalists imply that Hikmah or Wisdom in the previously mentioned verses refers to something other than Al-Kitab, hence it is another type of revelation which the messenger received. According to them, this revelation which is identified as Hikmah, is the un recited hidden revelation of God, and is not contained in the Quran but it is to be found in the books of traditions authenticated by their sect. However to term the books of traditions as Hikmah is very wrong as the Quran itself clarifies what is Hikmah, as we shall see.
The claim that Hikmah is some revelation outside of the Quran is refuted by Allah Himself when after stating the divine values of the Quran, He says

<Za_lika mimma_ auha_ ilaika rabbuka minal hikmah(ti), wa la_ taj'al ma'alla_hi ila_han a_khara fa tulqa_ fi jahannama malu_mam madhu_ra>

"This is of what your Sustainer has revealed to you of ?Hikmah? (wisdom), and do not associate any other god with Allah lest you should be thrown into hell, blamed, cast away." (1739)

Thus the above verse identifies the Quran itself to be Hikmah, and it is confirmed that Hikmah is simply another attribute of the Book of Allah. In Surah Al-Qamar this is again repeated

"There have already come to them Recitals wherein there is (enough) to check (them). Mature wisdom <Hikmat ul baaligha> but (the preaching of) Warners profits them not." (544-5)

Finally those who are under the misconception that Hikmah is <wahy ghayr matlu> i.e. the "un recited revelation" outside of the Quran, are clarified in the following verse that Hikmah is also <wahy matlu> i.e. recited revelation and is contained within the folds of Allah's Book, not outside of it. The wives of Nabi (S.A.W) are reminded

<Wazakurna ma_ yutla_ fi buyu_tikun na min a_ya_til la_hi wal hikmah inal la_ha ka_na latifan khabira>

"And bear in mind that which is recited in your houses of the revelations of Allah and wisdom. Lo! Allah is Subtile, Aware." (3334)

The above verse clearly states that ?Along with the Ayat of Allah, ?Hikmah? was also recited in the homes of the wives of Nabi (S.A.W), thus this nullifies the claim that ?Hikmah? consists of ?un recited revelation?.

The Quran makes it evident that Hikmah?is not some revelation outside of the Quran, but is simply another attribute of the Quran itself. All the messengers of Allah, received Al-Kitab i.e. the written laws and injunctions for governing human society, but along with the law, Allah also gave the wisdom or rationale behind that law. Since the law of Allah was not meant to be applied forcefully upon people, and it is something that the people have to accept using their faculties of reason and free will, therefore whenever the Quran ordaines a law, it also gives the wisdom or reason behind it and asks us to reflect upon the benefits we derive by implementing the divine law in our societies. E.g. After giving the injunctions for modest dress for women, the Quran states the wisdom or Hikmat behind that law as

"..This (dress code) will be more proper, that they may be recognised, and thus they will not be given trouble.." (3359)

Similarly the rationale i.e the Hikmat behind the prohibition of intoxicants and games of chance is identified when it is stated

<Yas'alu_naka 'anil khamri wal maisir(i), qul fihima_ ismun kabir>

"They ask thee concerning intoxicants and gambling. Say "In them is great enervation" (2219)

The above verse identifies intoxicants, i.e. liquor, drugs, gambling etc as "Ism" , an Arabic word which means "Enervation" i.e. such a thing which produces weakness and atrophy in something. And it is no secret what gambling, drugs and alcoholic drinks are doing to human society nowdays. Thus Allah asks us to think, ponder and reflect on the benefits of implementing His laws and even gives the wisdom behind the divine injunctions. That is why among the often repeated attributes of the Qur?n, one is <Al-Hakeem>, that is, "The Book of Wisdom", as the following verses identify

"Ya Seen. I swear by the Quran full of wisdom. Most surely you are one of the messengers." (361-3)

"Alif Lam Mim. These are verses of the Book of Wisdom. A guidance and a mercy for the doers of goodness," (311-3)

Thus it is evident from the above that Hikmah is not some un recited revelation outside of the Quran, but one of the attributes of Allah's Book it self and refers to the rationale and wisdom that is given behind the divine laws. Those who insist upon claiming that Hikmah refers to the books of traditions of their sect, should be asked, that in the Quran, Allah says that He gave Hikmah to David (2215), Jesus (34, The Followers of Abraham (454), Luqman (3112) etc, So were all these people given the books of traditions of a certain sect if Hikmah is implied to be as such?

Every tribe, city, household has their own sunna or habits. And the Quran is the guide to the ways (sunna) of the ones who had become before Muhammed.

One SUNNA of the ones before us
2183. O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.

Two SUNNA
634. Messengers before you were denied, but they were patient for what they were denied, and they were harmed until Our victory came to them; there is no changing the words of God. News of the messengers has come to you.

426. God wants to make clear for you and guide you to the ways of those before you, and pardon you, and God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

For example, Moses's SUNNA
2843. We had given Moses the Scripture after We had destroyed the earlier generations; as an example for the people and a guidance and mercy, perhaps they will take heed.

7128. Moses said to his people ?Seek help with God, and be patient; for the land is God?s, He will inherit it to whom He pleases of His servants; and the end will be to the righteous.?

7129. He exited the city, afraid and watchful. He said ?My Lord, save me from the wicked people.?

7130. And as he traveled towards Midyan, he said ?Perhaps my Lord will guide me to the right path.

Or Abraham's SUNNA
2916. And Abraham when he said to his people ?Serve God and be aware of Him, that is better for you if you knew.?

604. There has been a good example set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people We are innocent from you and what you serve besides God. We have rejected you, and it appears that there shall be animosity and hatred between us and you until you believe in God alone.? Except for the saying of Abraham to his father I will ask forgiveness for you, but I do not possess any power to protect you from God.Our Lord, we have put our trust in You, and we turn to You, and to You is the final destiny.
605. Our Lord, do not let us become a test for those who rejected, and forgive us. Our Lord, You are the Noble, the Wise.
606. Certainly, a good example has been set by them for those who seek God and the Last Day. And whosoever turns away, then God is the Rich, the Praiseworthy.

Does the Quran not have all the sunna's of the prophets which are important for us to know? Muhammed was taught by the Quran of the things they did not knew.

343. O Mary, be devoted to your Lord and prostrate and kneel with those who kneel.
344. This is from the news of the unseen that We inspire to you. You were not with them when they drew straws as to which one of them will be charged with Mary; you were not with them when they disputed.

These are the things we did not knew. Things we did not know about Josef

12102. That is from the news of the unseen that We inspire to you. You were not amongst them when they arranged their plan and were scheming.

This is a traditionalist claim someone made to me

From the above no one can deny that Allah said to His prophet that He sent the Quran to him to explain to us what we differ and surely the Quran is one of the things that believers will differ in it, ? ?, therefore and clearly the prophet had another mission in addition to the delivery of the Quran, and because the explanation was ASSOCIATED with the Quran only as seen from 1664, then we can use the Quran to qualify what we know about the hadith with ease. In fact one of the hadith that I read confirms that simple fact, that the Quran qualifies the hadith, this is common sense that the words of the Creator should qualify the words of His creatures. It won?t make any sense if taken the other way around.

Yes , it is true that it is Muhammed that explained to them what they differed about, but where does he get his knowledge from?

1664 And We have not revealed to you the Book EXCEPT that you may make clear to them (explain) that about which they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.

He must use the Book to explain to them. It is Muhammed's voice, but it is the Quran from where he get's his knowledge from to explain it to them. It is the same as saying"I explain to you, through the Quran that this appraoch is wrong." Is it me that explained it? YES. But did i use any knowledge besides the Quran? NO. Is the sentence thus formed that it clearly shows that i explain it? YES. Does this mean i didn't use the Quran? NO.
The verse says it so clearly, it is even scary you miss this. Let's use this in a sentence again with different wordings. "I have written this post, only so you can explain to them about why not following hadith as wahi."

Does this in any way imply to something else next to my post? NO. Does it imply that the purpose of this post is to use it to explain to others? YES. It clearly says; This post is given, SO you can explain it to them. The exact same thing implies for verse 1664. The Quran was revealed to Muhammed only so he can explain to them things USING the Quran. Is it still Muhammed to them that explained it? Yes, it is his voice. Does it in any way imply to other explanations outside of the Quran? Certainly not.

THE QUR?AN HAS EVERYTHING THAT IS REQUIRED FOR DIVINE GUIDANCE

"And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit." (1689)

"In their (all the messengers mentioned in the Quran) narratives there is certainly a lesson for people of understanding. It is not a 'Hadith' which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a distinct explanation of all things and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe." (12111)

THE QUR?AN DOES NOT LACK "TAFSEEL" (DETAILED ELUCIDATION)

"Shall I then seek a Ruler other than Allah? When He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) distinctly elucidated <Kitab an Muffasalla>." (6114)

"And certainly We have brought them a Book which We have detailed<Fassalnahu> with knowledge, a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe." (752)

"A Book of which the verses are distinctly elucidated <fussilat ayatahu>, an Arabic Quran for a people who know." (413)

"Indeed We have made the revelations distinct for a people who take reminder <qad fassalnal ayyati li qaumin yazekerun>". " (6126)

"Thus do We make the revelations distinct for a people who reflect. <nuffasil ul ayyati li qaumin ya-tafekerun>" (1024)

"Thus do We make the revelations distinct for a people who use their reason. <nuffasil ul ayyati li qaumin ya-qilun> " (302

"And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a distinct elucidation of the book <Tafseel al-Kitab>, there is no doubt in it, from the Sustainer of the worlds." (1037)

"So leave Me and him who rejects this Hadith; We will overtake them by degrees, from whence they perceive not." (6844)

"In which Hadith, then, after it, will they believe?" (7750)

"Do they not consider the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and whatever things Allah has created, and that may be their doom shall have drawn nigh; In which Hadith would they then believe in after this?" (7185)

"Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe." (2951)

This is a mix of several books and my own comments and statements.

Sources

Authority of the Quran by Kashif Ahmed Shehzada
http//members.tripod.com/lebou/authorityof.htm

Obedience to the Prophet by Dr. Mansoor Alam
http//www.tolueislam.com/Bazm/Mansoor/MA_obedience_to_the_prophet_I.htm
http//www.tolueislam.com/Bazm/Mansoor/MA_obedience_to_the_prophet_II.htm
http//www.tolueislam.com/Bazm/Mansoor/MA_obedience_to_the_prophet_III.htm

The Basis of Legislation in an Islamic State by GA Parwez
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/articles/Basis_of_legislation.htm

[hlatif]

Salaam all,

I hesitate to post here because I left this forum sometime ago and I do not have much desire to participate. There are two independant questions when it comes to hadeeth

1- Does one agree that one needs to obey the messenger?

2- How can one be sure of the authenticity of what is related from the messenger?

They are two independant questions and have to be answered independantly.

So, obey the messenger. The Qur'an is clear. It said obey the messenger. Certainly, the message came from the messenger, but, in this situation, the order was to obey the messenger. Here, you have two options

1- The messenger and the message are inseparable. If so, then the messenger said things outside of the Qur'an, and therefore things that are outside of the Qur'an are part of the message.

2- The message is only the Qur'an. Here, the order to obey the messenger is an order to obey the messenger, whether it is part of the message/ Qur'an or outside of it.

In both situations one cannot run away from the clear Qur'anic order. One adds the rest of the Aya And the people of the order. So, if you differ between you, then return it to Allah and the messenger.

1- It asks us to obey the people in authority, but it limited the order to being within the confines of the order to obey Allah and his messenger.

2- It did not say return it to Allah alone.

3- If one understands return it to Allah, as return it to the Qur'an, because Allah claims authorship of it, then return to the messenger is pointing to something else. Why? because the messenger cannot claim authorship of the Qur'an. What is that something else? It is something authored by the messenger, but inspired by God.

So, the traditional understanding is totally sound and within the linguistic rules of the language. It definitely makes better sense than yours and does not have to go through the linguistic acrobatics that you are going through. If you insist that only your way is correct, then that is an insistance without evidence.

Then we go to the issue of the authenticity. Brother Tanveer said this

5. How will you determine the 100 % authentic hadeeth and examples of the messenger nowadays in order to obey the messenger ? Hint answer The God's questions in 487, 7185, 456, 6837-38 and 7750, and read the warnings in 316 and 6944-47, and the advice in 6116, 2170, and 3936. (see my above post)

You have a problem here. Many Christians or Jews or whoever will claim the absence of 100% authenticity from the Qur'an. So asking for it is going to be problematic to anyone on anything. What matters is that one feels safe with what is related to him or her, whether it is Qur'an or whatever. All Muslims feel safest in the Qur'an and then the degree of safety decreases, but it rarely reaches a Zero. When it comes to hadeeth, one has many issues

1- The degree of certainty or lack of certainty of each hadeeth is separate from the other. Therefore it is an extremist view to discard the whole work, because you cannot be sure of some.

2- Just as one cannot be 100% sure that a hadeeth is authentic, one cannot be 100% sure that it is a lie. So, realism will dictate that one has a close honest look at what is provided and make an intelligent decision rather than throw everything out of a window and claim something a lie when it was actually said by the messenger, whom we are asked to obey.

3- The biggest reason that people refuse hadeeth is that it does not fit with their, often biased, view of the world or surroundings. It also could be that it does not fit with their either limited or biased or narrow understanding of what the Qur'an says and of what the particular hadeeth is saying.

4- What is the proof that there is lots of bias playing on amongst the Qur'an aloners? They cannot agree on anything. This is what happens when bias becomes more important than the actual words and sentences of the Qur'an.

I am not here to debate. This is my first and last post on this subject. I am here to share with those who have an open mind.

Take care all.

Hussein

[Wakas]

peace hlatif, all,

Nice to see you back. If you read the forum regularly, no harm in contributing from time to time.

In both situations one cannot run away from the clear Qur'anic order. One adds the rest of the Aya And the people of the order. So, if you differ between you, then return it to Allah and the messenger.

1. If it said only "So, if you differ between you, then return it to Allah." it could be regarded as ambiguous/problematic, because as has already been pointed out by brother Tanveer what does "return it to Allah" mean? What source/guidance is being referred to? IF "Allah" was not being used by anyone else and not linked to any other source/authority then it could say only "return it to Allah" as it would be obvious "Allah" is only present in 'al quran'. I dont think that was the case however .

2. If it said only "So, if you differ between you, then return it to the messenger." it could be regarded as ambiguous/problematic, as this implies independent authority of the messenger out with al quran's guidance/rulings.

Having both "return it to Allah and the messenger" strongly ties the two together. The messenger is representing Allah's rulings/guidance via the message.

[jonny_k]

Peace sis "Sarah" and all,
Whenever you hear a sunni bring the "why the 'and' emphasis" up smack this into their faces "Hey sunnis whilst your in the masjid why does the Imam say 'My dear friends AND brothers'. Does it mean your Imam is referring to half of you folks as bros whilst the other half are mere friends or is it tht your simply laying double emphasis upon everyone". Its really tht simple. Many times the Quran lays redundant emphaiss. it helps further clarify the matter. Its their in msot if not all languages.
2ndly who here thinks tht the term "messenger" in the Quran in the phrase "obey GOD and His messenger" is static for Muhammad? If you think tht then again its wrong. With tht your basically saying tht Muhammad was the last messenger, which the Quran never mentions, and also that no human after him could ever get such a high status as before him which is obviously CRAP. GOD Bless!

[siki]

Dear Hussain

It is nice to have some logical /sane hadith advocates around for the sake of learning. I suggest that you must hang on, and enlighten us from your point of view in an attempt to put a check on Quran Alone-rs Free Ride.

I agree with you that we take any body's written history, and quote it with authority , but do not want to have any thing to do with the word Hadith or Bukhari, but probably I can understand. To tell you the truth brother! The kinda weird twists that these books have introduced in Islam! that now, "the morphed version" is totally alien to the original preserved in Quran.

That is the reason, "why we do not want to have any thing to do with it? and why have we thrown them out of the window as an extreme reaction?

If i have to use the Hadith literature, i would probably draw some "educated inferences" from it , where as, what Mullah has done is, "copy and paste" and hence has ended up, "freezing the last Deen of God back in time 1400 years ago" , where as it is suppose to serve the mankind in all the situations for all the times to come.

That is the primary reason for the misery of present day so called Muslims, and our extreme allergy to these books.

peace

siki

[unknownuser]

Peace hlatif, all,

You have a problem here. Many Christians or Jews or whoever will claim the absence of 100% authenticity from the Qur'an. So asking for it is going to be problematic to anyone on anything. What matters is that one feels safe with what is related to him or her, whether it is Qur'an or whatever. All Muslims feel safest in the Qur'an and then the degree of safety decreases, but it rarely reaches a Zero. When it comes to hadeeth, one has many issues

It does not matter if it is zero or 99 %; it violates 487, 7185, 456, 6837-38 and 7750. Would you care to answer the questions asked in those signs ?

[hlatif]

Salaam all and thanks for asking me to respond,

Wakas

1. If it said only "So, if you differ between you, then return it to Allah." it could be regarded as ambiguous/problematic, because as has already been pointed out by brother Tanveer what does "return it to Allah" mean? What source/guidance is being referred to? IF "Allah" was not being used by anyone else and not linked to any other source/authority then it could say only "return it to Allah" as it would be obvious "Allah" is only present in 'al quran'. I dont think that was the case however .

It would not be ambiguous at all. If it said return it to Allah and then stopped, it will mean

1- God communicates to the person in a subliminal way.
2- The Qur'an.
3- the combination of the two where the Qur'an would be the criterion.

Since there is no limitation what return it to Allah means, then it is both where no one process can contradict the other.

2. If it said only "So, if you differ between you, then return it to the messenger." it could be regarded as ambiguous/problematic, as this implies independent authority of the messenger out with al quran's guidance/rulings.

Having both "return it to Allah and the messenger" strongly ties the two together. The messenger is representing Allah's rulings/guidance via the message.

Sure and then everything the messenger says is the message. Or, if you want to make divisions, then what the messenger says is the following
1- The word of God.
2- the word of the messenger which is either inspired by God, or reflective of the messenger's understanding of the word of God.

The rule obey the messenger applies to both. Why? because there is nothing in the Qur'an that makes a limitation on one or the other of those two and nothing that declares that the messenger is a messenger sometimes and not others. In the absence of an exclusion from the Qur'an, then insisting on only one would be a matter of bias and not based on language rules nor Qur'anic rule.

Siki, thanks for the welcome. What you are talking about is what made me a Qur'an alone at some point and then I discovered that it is faulty reasoning. If one is not happy with the scholarly opinions of today, then one needs to keep in his or her mind the following

1- Do I reject the whole issue? As you said, that is an extreme and facing an extreme with another extreme is faulty. This is what I noticed here when I was a Qur'an aloner.

2- Do I study the material that the scholar uses? This is what I chose. Here, you discover that the scholar is an opinion of a person based on his or her interpretation of what is available to him. If he or she is faulty, then it does not mean that the material that he is studying is all faulty.

3- If one studies the scholarly opinions of the muslims, then one discovers a richness of diversity that many people are not aware of.

4- Hadeeth is intimidating to many people because they do not understand it or have a grasp of it or how it relates to the Qur'an. That is true. However, the Qur'an frowns on people who reject something because they cannot have good knowledge or grasp of it. The wiser thing to say is I do not have good grasp of it. It does not fit with my understanding of the Qur'an, therefore I withold judgement. However, rejecting it, when may be it is because one has faulty understanding of the hadeeth or the Qur'an or both, is rash and faulty and unwise.

Tanveer,

It does not matter if it is zero or 99 %; it violates 487, 7185, 456, 6837-38 and 7750. Would you care to answer the questions asked in those signs ?

There are many ways to respond to this statement. First it has to be understood that those previous statements have to be understood in a manner that does not lead to them contradicting the other Ayat that say obey the messenger

1- The messenger speaks the words of God or words inspired by God or by the words of God. So, the two are complimentary.

2- The Ayaat here talk about Iman. Definitely, no one can top the word of God in introducing Iman to people. The other Ayat talk about obeying orders. It is two different things and therefore no contradiction.

3- No one understands those Ayat as saying "Do not read or listen to anything else". If you undestood this way, then I would not expect you to be at this forum reading "Other than God's speech". The message of those Ayat is that one has to discard any speech that is inconsistent with God's words. The messenger's words are consistent with God's speech, or otherwise God would not choose him as messenger nor keep him as messenger.

Now, you will say but the hadeeth contradicts the Qur'an. The answer is that this is often something in the eye of the beholder. However, if a presumed hadeeth is truly contradicting of the Qur'an, then one can assume that it was never said by the prophet. Scholars of hadeeth did that a lot in the past.

Take care all and have a great day.

Hussein

[unknownuser]

Peace,

hlatif

Sure and then everything the messenger says is the message. Or, if you want to make divisions, then what the messenger says is the following
1- The word of God.
2- the word of the messenger which is either inspired by God, or reflective of the messenger's understanding of the word of God.

The rule obey the messenger applies to both. Why? because there is nothing in the Qur'an that makes a limitation on one or the other of those two and nothing that declares that the messenger is a messenger sometimes and not others. In the absence of an exclusion from the Qur'an, then insisting on only one would be a matter of bias and not based on language rules nor Qur'anic rule.

I support double redundancy because this is the clearest.
This quoted viewpoint is wholesale contradictory to the Quran

039.036
YUSUFALI Is not Allah enough for his Servant? But they try to frighten thee with other (gods) besides Him! for such as Allah leaves to stray, there can be no guide.

The ONLY way that can be followed is if obeying Allah AND the messenger (which does not specifically refer to Muhammad) is doubly redundant.

042.048
YUSUFALI If then they run away, We have not sent thee as a guard over them. Thy duty is but to convey (the Message). And truly, when We give man a taste of a Mercy from Ourselves, he doth exult thereat, but when some ill happens to him, on account of the deeds which his hands have sent forth, truly then is man ungrateful!

So there is a CLEAR LIMIT imposed by God on the messenger's role.

075.014
YUSUFALI Nay, man will be evidence against himself,
PICKTHAL Oh, but man is a telling witness against himself,
SHAKIR Nay! man is evidence against himself,

075.015
YUSUFALI Even though he were to put up his excuses.
PICKTHAL Although he tender his excuses.
SHAKIR Though he puts forth his excuses.

075.016
YUSUFALI Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith.
PICKTHAL Stir not thy tongue herewith to hasten it.
SHAKIR Do not move your tongue with it to make haste with it,

075.017
YUSUFALI It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it
PICKTHAL Lo! upon Us (resteth) the putting together thereof and the reading thereof.
SHAKIR Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.

075.018
YUSUFALI But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated)
PICKTHAL And when We read it, follow thou the reading;
SHAKIR Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.

075.019
YUSUFALI Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear)
PICKTHAL Then lo! upon Us (resteth) the explanation thereof.
SHAKIR Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it.

075.020
YUSUFALI Nay, (ye men!) but ye love the fleeting life,
PICKTHAL Nay, but ye do love the fleeting Now
SHAKIR Nay! But you love the present life,

These verses alone prove that the messenger's role is as a messenger, not someone who speaks on behalf of Allah. There is a difference between speaking through, and on behalf.

and then I discovered that it is faulty reasoning.

I'd double check that faulty reasoning. Post it up.

045.006
YUSUFALI Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs?
PICKTHAL These are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth. Then in what fact, after Allah and His portents, will they believe?
SHAKIR These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications?

In which hadith will you believe in?

1- Do I reject the whole issue? As you said, that is an extreme and facing an extreme with another extreme is faulty. This is what I noticed here when I was a Qur'an aloner.

2- Do I study the material that the scholar uses? This is what I chose. Here, you discover that the scholar is an opinion of a person based on his or her interpretation of what is available to him. If he or she is faulty, then it does not mean that the material that he is studying is all faulty.

3- If one studies the scholarly opinions of the muslims, then one discovers a richness of diversity that many people are not aware of.

4- Hadeeth is intimidating to many people because they do not understand it or have a grasp of it or how it relates to the Qur'an. That is true. However, the Qur'an frowns on people who reject something because they cannot have good knowledge or grasp of it. The wiser thing to say is I do not have good grasp of it. It does not fit with my understanding of the Qur'an, therefore I withold judgement. However, rejecting it, when may be it is because one has faulty understanding of the hadeeth or the Qur'an or both, is rash and faulty and unwise.

1.) Quran alone is not an extreme. It is a clarification. Supposing you went all your life believing 2+2=10 and suddenly moved to 2+2=4, is that "moving from one extreme to the other"? No. It is moving from falsehood to truth.

2.) Most such hadith analysis is not based on scholarly opinion, but the source material itself.

3.) In other words, a lack of consensus?

4.) At one point I knew the hadith relatively inside out. I could argue for it day in day out and never go down. I could even explain away ridiculous hadith such as the ones pertaining to a flat Earth. There is a hadith that crept into Sahih Bukhari that effectively reads "Don't ever invade Turkiye". Is that credible? Turkey got conquered very fast, if the people back then would follow the "credible" hadith, we would not see the Ottoman empire!

The wiser thing to say is I do not have good grasp of it. It does not fit with my understanding of the Qur'an, therefore I withold judgement.

Just like I do not have a good understanding of Atheism, it does not fit in with my understanding of the Qur'an, therefore I withhold judgement. I do not have a good understanding of Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, it does not fit in with my understanding of the Qur'an, therefore I withhold judgement. I do not have a good understanding of Buddhism, it does not fit in with my understanding of the Qur'an, therefore I withhold judgement. I do not have a good understanding of the Christian Trinity, it does not fit in with my understanding of the Qur'an, therefore I withhold judgement.

Pardon me for reserving the benefit of the doubt explicitly for the word of God, a consistent message.

The answer is that this is often something in the eye of the beholder.

When I used to study hadith, this rung true for many, don't get me wrong. But some of them? No way in hell. I'd love to see you explaining the camel urine hadith. For the love of God...

Following God alone, as always... peace

[Wakas]

peace,

It would not be ambiguous at all. If it said return it to Allah and then stopped, it will mean

1- God communicates to the person in a subliminal way.
2- The Qur'an.
3- the combination of the two where the Qur'an would be the criterion.

Since there is no limitation what return it to Allah means, then it is both where no one process can contradict the other.

I cited 17110 because it showed "Allah" was being used at the time. The above only holds IF "Allah" was not tied to anything other than al quran at the time. Like I said I do not believe this was the case.
You said "there is no limitation what return it to Allah means" and this is exactly my point! To clarify it as you did is an extrapolation/assumption that is simply not explicit in the sign.

Sure and then everything the messenger says is the message. Or, if you want to make divisions, then what the messenger says is the following
1- The word of God.
2- the word of the messenger which is either inspired by God, or reflective of the messenger's understanding of the word of God.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean but if you are implying "messenger" refers to anything other than the role/capacity of a "messenger", i.e. directly related to the message, and not Muhammad / the person in affairs out with revelation, then I agree.

The rule obey the messenger applies to both. Why? because there is nothing in the Qur'an that makes a limitation on one or the other of those two and nothing that declares that the messenger is a messenger sometimes and not others. In the absence of an exclusion from the Qur'an, then insisting on only one would be a matter of bias and not based on language rules nor Qur'anic rule.

On the contrary there is clear cut proof there is limitations/exclusions in al quran regarding this. It cites several examples of mistakes made by Muhammad, e.g. 661. al quran itself proves that not everything being said by Muhammad is divine/inspired.

[SarahY]

6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have another book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?

Some interesting points, though let me say something the sunnah will say everything the prophet did was inspired by God hence the validation of hadiths?

DArgento
I don?t understand how can you obey an alive messenger/s, what messenger is alive?? So basically that verse only relates to people who were living in the time of the prophet, unless you believed Rashad was a messenger then you follow him?? Well I dunno it sounds a bit strange..

It?s very true Dargento and Tanveer in the sense that the messenger delivered the Quran to us if he didn?t deliver the Quran how can you follow God.

The Quran identifies itself as hikmah and we follow that wisdom. But you know we will forever have the argument of following the messenger.. and I agree hadiths did come after the prophet so only God knows if there is actually truth in them. There could be falsehood and truth in them but can we actually really know? Not in my opinion, the only thing we can know is what goes with or against the Quran.

Then people will argue how can you verify the Quran as truth?

Hussein you?re right scholars did a lot in the past, but I think things need to be verified again. It?s easier to follow majority of the crowd. Though I believe at both ends things don?t add up.

Traditionalist ? Follow things without rationale just do it for the sake of following ahadiths, sowing off, following their fathers belief sometimes even ishrek without realizing. Follow bukhari and muslim because of their compilation of hadiths and take it for granted that it has been verified and it is ?sahih?. Even someone mentioned ahadith about studying a hadiths or something about deen if you say something and your right you get a sin if you say something and your wrong you go to hell or something or other? so basically saying be lazy don?t study you?re going to get a sin or go to hell anyway. And something new, someone told me this the other day

?to be a mujtahid mutlaq you must have ijaza from a mujtahid mutlaq

the last mujtahid mutlaq died several hundred years ago...

thus no mujtahid mutlaqs exist today because none of them have ijazas from past mujtahid mutlaqs

thus all shiyook must make taqleed to one of the four madhahib?

How interesting, so now you?re limited to following a scholarly opinion even if you don?t like it all for the sake of ?they have more knowledge? and you need to have ?ijaza? so your own ijtihad is considered invalid? you wonder why the muslim world is going downhill?

Quran alone ? want to stick away from traditionalists want to adapt different ways of practices, reject a lot of the traditionalist way to steer away from it. Don?t want to do any rituals even if it has benefits, some do some don?t. The unity is just as bad as the traditionalists everyone has their own perceptions there?s no togetherness only very little? reject any hadith? I don?t know the way I see things we?re all useless even myself?

Salam.