ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

SarahY

Asalamu alaikum All

Brian thanks for your reply, I think the system of sahih as in ?genuine/truth? was authenticated via the chain of narration not the content. What I am failing to discover is how the content was verified so I?m assuming it wasn?t. So in that case, some hadiths could be verified.

Not everything is clear cut; some things are some things aren?t right? So what wrong would it be to follow the masses of the Muslims if they don?t do anything that is objected in the Quran?

The Quran calls its self the best hadiths. Meaning there are other hadiths doesn?t mean there isn?t any good hadiths

I believe what Hussein is trying to convey is you look at other hadiths i.e. dictionaries other people look at hadiths compiled by scholars etc etc. We are human right? Fallible and inevitable to sin. Like it or not that is how it is. There is truth everywhere. Some things can be seen on more levels just like how the Quran is translated some hadiths are ridiculous others are rather interesting and beneficial.

A few things are inconsistent with various approaches which covey disunity, that?s where weakness starts. There are weaknesses in all opinions the full truth is only with God.

Asalamu alaikum )

unknownuser

Salaam OPF, all,

Wakas, you are right, no one here denies Salat, but the way they view it is vastly different.

OPF, thanks for your response.1- The four schools of thought appeared before that 200 year number that you quote. Imam Abu Hanifa was born in 80 H and Malik in 90 H. So, the schools started much earlier.

2- What did they do till then? Such a difficult question. The prophet left behind him many companions who lived in those different centers and taught the people of those cities and then their students taught more students and so forth.

3- So, people were following what the friends and friends of friends of the prophet. Shafii simply said that following the prophet is stronger evidence than following his friends and that is how hadeeth came to prominence. Was there hadeeth before that? Of course there was, Imam Malik collected his Muwatta well before your 200 year number and before Shafii came along.

The point is that there was never anything called Qur'an alone.
The Qur'an tells us that there were always good Christians and Jews. According to your theory, there were no good muslims for 1400 years. So, if the bible was so corrupted, but there were always some good Christians and Jews, then what about the totally preserved Qur'an, but no good Muslim for 1400 years? You are not talking about minority. You are talking about total absence for 1400 years, until you guys came. That is simple nonsense.
So, when the Qur'an says Litubayyina= to make it clear, or Yuaallimahum alkitab walhikamta= Make them know the book and the wisdom, it was really meaning reading it on them like a parrot. Oh, I forgot, the "common sense dictionary of the Qur'an" that you follow says so, therefore those words cannot mean what they actually mean. Change them in the name of whatever.
1- You are simply wrong. Any person who adheres to a well studied position of his or her school of thought is accepted as Muslim.

2- Sunnism is about accepting the minimum common denominator for a Muslim. This is the five pillars of Islam. When one adds more, then the person has left Sunnism, but is still a Muslim. This rule applies to people al Qaeda who left Sunnism.

3- Sunnis according the above definition will not consider you non Muslim. However, you will be considered outside of Sunnism because you added another pillar , without which Islam is incomplete. It is called "reject Hadeeth". You guys however, do not hesitate to declare Takfir on me and others.
I was not asking about the congregation. I was asking how you will make Salat in that congregation, as asked in this Aya. I can see some of you facing Mecca, others facing Jerusalem and others facing anywhere, while others are reading a book and accusing the others of "idol worship".
1- The hadeeth did never say go to hell. It said suffering in the grave. This does not mean hell.

2- How do you reconcile the Ayat that says Riba goes to hell, with the Ayat that say God does not forgive the ones who give partners to Allah but forgives whatever less than that to whomever He wills?
The same way you reconcile this Aya, you do with any alleged hadeeth that speaks the same way. It means that the sin can send the person to hell, but it is still possible that God will forgive.

3- Just because a person is Sunni, does not mean that they have to accept all hadeeths. Sunni scholars have refused many hadeeths before including some hadeeths that were reported in Bukhari. Infact, accepting all hadeeths in an unquestionable fashion is considered wrong. However, rejecting all hadeeth, or rejecting the authority of the messenger goes against the language of the Qur'an.
So, you have some more ayat to manipulate here. What about when God says "Liyuthhirahu ala Addeene kullihi= To make it more apparent than all other religion"

Or this one "our soldiers are the winners"

How do you understand those Ayat in the face of defeat for 1400 years and inapparence.
No matter what one uses, the faulty understanding reveals itself eventually, unless the person holding is holding on to it too dearly, then he remains deaf and blind.
Hence your need to abstract it. Here, it is not the language that is doing the interpretation of the Qur'an. It is your mind which is clearly "free of bias" because you follow "common sense" and "logic".
I have addressed it earlier. You may need to look back. The short version is this. The several Ayat were talking about people who rejected the Qur'an. If you reject the Qur'an then you are feeling safe in an alternative and the Ayat were talking about that. The Ayat were not putting limit on those who accept the Qur'an or asking them to refuse any other speech as long as it is consistent with the Qur'an. That is why those Ayat harmoize perfectly with the Ayat that say obey the messenger.

Related to reading a book of human thinkingOne gets the feeling that you are making your mind claim that it is the Qur'an, under the guise of common sense, logic and so forth. If you do not make the book challenge you, then I feel sorry for you.

The same book that you are reading talks about a person who makes his "hawa= desire, air, bias" his God. That is interesting because bias makes itself attractive, but is hot empty air.

Peace

Hussein

Peace, and thanks for the reply )

1- The four schools of thought appeared before that 200 year number that you quote. Imam Abu Hanifa was born in 80 H and Malik in 90 H. So, the schools started much earlier.

2- What did they do till then? Such a difficult question. The prophet left behind him many companions who lived in those different centers and taught the people of those cities and then their students taught more students and so forth.

3- So, people were following what the friends and friends of friends of the prophet. Shafii simply said that following the prophet is stronger evidence than following his friends and that is how hadeeth came to prominence. Was there hadeeth before that? Of course there was, Imam Malik collected his Muwatta well before your 200 year number and before Shafii came along.

The point is that there was never anything called Qur'an alone.

Alright. Now I get a reasonably consistent picture. The people of Arabia followed Muhammad's companions and the legacy thereof. When I refer to hadith appearing 200 years later, I of course mean the collections of Bukhari and so on. This started in 825, assuming Bukhari started at 15 years of age. 632CE is the supposed date of death of Muhammad, though in other thread on this site, there is evidence that it was earlier so. Either way, that's 200 years of word-of-mouth, several generations - though some texts such as those you talk of did exist, presumably.
I would cast doubt on that. What's to say that the "companions" did not decieve those? You would think that they would use the Quran as opposed to listening to what some random people claiming association would have to say. Regardless of that, the question is - "are the modern hadith books an accurate reflection of what actually happened in those times, assuming you're correct?" (rhetorical, don't answer)
That's good. See 1, and 2.

Now, I have you in a Catch-22. Are Jinn metaphysical, or spiritual beings out of perception as per the Hadith? Or are they something more mundane or esoterical depending on how you look at it, for instance Arnold Yasin's POV?

Assuming the traditional understanding, it seems Jinn were very Quran alone )

046.029
YUSUFALI Behold, We turned towards thee a company of Jinns (quietly) listening to the Qur'an when they stood in the presence thereof, they said, "Listen in silence!" When the (reading) was finished, they returned to their people, to warn (them of their sins).
PICKTHAL And when We inclined toward thee (Muhammad) certain of the jinn, who wished to hear the Qur'an and, when they were in its presence, said Give ear! and, when it was finished, turned back to their people, warning.
SHAKIR And when We turned towards you a party of the jinn who listened to the Quran; so when they came to it, they said Be silent; then when it was finished, they turned back to their people warning (them).

046.030
YUSUFALI They said, "O our people! We have heard a Book revealed after Moses, confirming what came before it it guides (men) to the Truth and to a Straight Path.
PICKTHAL They said O our people! Lo! we have heard a scripture which hath been revealed after Moses, confirming that which was before it, guiding unto the truth and a right road.
SHAKIR They said O our people! we have listened to a Book revealed after Musa verifying that which is before it, guiding to the truth and to a right path

046.031
YUSUFALI "O our people, hearken to the one who invites (you) to Allah, and believe in him He will forgive you your faults, and deliver you from a Penalty Grievous.
PICKTHAL O our people! respond to Allah's summoner and believe in Him. He will forgive you some of your sins and guard you from a painful doom.
SHAKIR O our people! accept the Divine caller and believe in Him, He will forgive you of your faults and protect you from a painful punishment.

046.032
YUSUFALI "If any does not hearken to the one who invites (us) to Allah, he cannot frustrate (Allah's Plan) on earth, and no protectors can he have besides Allah such men (wander) in manifest error."
PICKTHAL And whoso respondeth not to Allah's summoner he can nowise escape in the earth, and he hath no protecting friends instead of Him. Such are in error manifest.
SHAKIR And whoever does not accept the-Divine caller, he shall not escape in the earth and he shall not have guardians besides Him, these are in manifest error.

Unless, of course, you want to argue that the prophet communicated daily with ghosts and that they happened to be companions hail. And of course, the Jinnee must open up Sahih-Al-Bukhari every now and then. hail

The Qur'an tells us that there were always good Christians and Jews. According to your theory, there were no good muslims for 1400 years. So, if the bible was so corrupted, but there were always some good Christians and Jews, then what about the totally preserved Qur'an, but no good Muslim for 1400 years? You are not talking about minority. You are talking about total absence for 1400 years, until you guys came. That is simple nonsense.

We are talking about minority. The hadith most certainly were not implemented in the majority of "Muslim empires". I recall much talk about the Sultans having harems with 400 concubines, according to hadith, they should be stoned to death. There were definitely such "good Muslims for 1400 years", but as the Quran says, the majority were never guided. Strawman argument, anyway. I'd recommend you keep away from that. We are not arguing to win or lose, we are arguing to get to the truth, so you must second-guess your replies like a chess computer calculates all the possible paths )

So, when the Qur'an says Litubayyina= to make it clear, or Yuaallimahum alkitab walhikamta= Make them know the book and the wisdom, it was really meaning reading it on them like a parrot. Oh, I forgot, the "common sense dictionary of the Qur'an" that you follow says so, therefore those words cannot mean what they actually mean. Change them in the name of whatever.

Can you cite the particular verse? I'm no compendium of Islamic texts, so I can't actually verify what you're quoting is even in context ). By the way, if "reading like a parrot" is not what the Quran was made for, I suggest you tell our Sunni brothers over in Pakistan and South Asia to stop encouraging it. )

1- You are simply wrong. Any person who adheres to a well studied position of his or her school of thought is accepted as Muslim.

You are wrong, heehee. Anyone who submits to the doctrine of monotheism - One God is a Muslim. Hence, there are Muslims from any of the denominations of the Abrahamic faith. Anyway, you should take note as to what the Quran has to say, toe this line very well

009.031
YUSUFALI They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).
PICKTHAL They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
SHAKIR They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him).

Don't be like the Jews...

I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant "mu'min". Because "muslim" is a very broad term. And of course, all of these are states of minds, not religions. One can drift in and out of being a mushrik, muslim, mu'min, kaffir, whatever. Tell me, did Abraham, a Muslim, conform to the madhab of Shafi, Hanbal, Maliki or Hanafi? Which one? And Moses? Jesus?

2- Sunnism is about accepting the minimum common denominator for a Muslim. This is the five pillars of Islam. When one adds more, then the person has left Sunnism, but is still a Muslim. This rule applies to people al Qaeda who left Sunnism.

This is another problem with the Sunni definition of "Muslim". The Quran does not describe a Muslim as "He who accepts the 5 pillars of Islam", the Quran describes a Muslim as "he who submits to the one God". If translated, this matches the English term "monotheist". If Sunnis actually bothered to make this distinction, we would be that much closer to our Jewish and Christian brethren, and they might see Islam as not "just another religion". Where in the Quran does it say "these are the five fundamental pillars"? Let me stress it again - the entire Quran can be effectively be summed up in 6151-153. No mention of "5 pillars". The Quran does not count pillars, it counts character.

3- Sunnis according the above definition will not consider you non Muslim. However, you will be considered outside of Sunnism because you added another pillar , without which Islam is incomplete.

Again, in practice, it is a wholly different matter. Quranists are imprisoned for their beliefs by the guardians of the most oppressive of Sunni institutes - Al-Azhar. Again, do you have evidence of these 5 pillars? 6151-153, again.

3- Just because a person is Sunni, does not mean that they have to accept all hadeeths. Sunni scholars have refused many hadeeths before including some hadeeths that were reported in Bukhari. Infact, accepting all hadeeths in an unquestionable fashion is considered wrong. However, rejecting all hadeeth, or rejecting the authority of the messenger goes against the language of the Qur'an.
So, you have some more ayat to manipulate here. What about when God says "Liyuthhirahu ala Addeene kullihi= To make it more apparent than all other religion"

Or this one "our soldiers are the winners"

I'll just reject all hadith except for the few that say "love your mother" and other tidbits of common sense. I am still a Sunni ). Regardless, a citation of the verse is needed to ensure it is in context. This is also a divine ordainment )

015.090
YUSUFALI (Of just such wrath) as We sent down on those who divided (Scripture into arbitrary parts),-
PICKTHAL Such as We send down for those who make division,
SHAKIR Like as We sent down on the dividers

015.091
YUSUFALI (So also on such) as have made Qur'an into shreds (as they please).
PICKTHAL Those who break the Qur'an into parts.
SHAKIR Those who made the Quran into shreds.

Context, context, context. Without context, you will see that an aya is "manipulated". It appears spontaneous to you, because your context is the hadith as opposed to the Quran.

How do you understand those Ayat in the face of defeat for 1400 years and inapparence.

At present, because the ayat are out of context, they are about as understandable as the sentence "He moved it upwards". Who moved "it" upwards? What is "it"? What does the sentence mean by saying "upwards"? Etc...

No matter what one uses, the faulty understanding reveals itself eventually, unless the person holding is holding on to it too dearly, then he remains deaf and blind.

It is convenient to throw around terms like "deaf and blind". Quranists are also guilty. Some, from all sides, will proclaim their position and act as if it is divinely sanctioned by using the "deaf and blind" verses. But, for the sake of getting to the truth - as opposed to "winning" - winning in this world is no matter in the hereafter - let's keep such ridiculous rhetoric out of this. That statement is universal. It also applies to Sunnis.

I was not asking about the congregation. I was asking how you will make Salat in that congregation, as asked in this Aya. I can see some of you facing Mecca, others facing Jerusalem and others facing anywhere, while others are reading a book and accusing the others of "idol worship".

I haven't looked in-depth at salat yet. If Sunni-ism is the correct way, then I probably will revert then. So of course, some will do X, Y, or Z, but then, we have only moved the "disorder" one order of magnitude up. For instance, some will come into the mosque and pray 2 rakat. Others will pray 4. Others will sit there and think "who are these idiots... that hadith is false according to Mullah X". Do we raise our hands at each bowing or not? Etc...

Now, onto the salat itself. How does the Sunni method of salat help anyone? Can you explain what standing, bowing, prostrating, 5 times a day, in a language the majority of the world just does not know, reciting Quranic verses that sound utterly ridiculous beyond sense ("Perish be the hands of Abu Lahab"... "Say, He is God the One"...), etc, how does that help? It does not. Threatening those who miss a single one as being kaffirs bound to hell - again, makes no sense. Nor does it help. Nor is it reflective of a merciful God. The only benefits from this are the physical exercise and the forced adherence to a ritual. I would prefer to run on a treadmill for an equal time, and learn the Quran, for an equal time. Some Sunni Imams have caught onto this; Most have not.

Also of note is that a paradox arises out of the traditional way of thought. There is a hadith I remember, it's present in my copy of Bukhari, I believe, and a few Sunni texts. According to this, the messenger states that one night of 5 prayers is better than the worship of a devout Jew for 1000 months - 84 years. This is the traditional understanding of "lailatul-qadr", based on the thought that it is a specific night that the Quran "was sent down on" and that everything on this night is "better than a thousand months". Considering that the devout Jew must have prayed several times a day, inevitably on the "night of power" several times, does that mean he has effectively infinite good deeds? Because, of course, his prayer on the night of power is better than some Jew (him ) who happened to believe and never miss a prayer for 84 years. It's as if this Jew was walking through a hall of mirrors, his good deeds are so magnified!

I have addressed it earlier. You may need to look back. The short version is this. The several Ayat were talking about people who rejected the Qur'an. If you reject the Qur'an then you are feeling safe in an alternative and the Ayat were talking about that. The Ayat were not putting limit on those who accept the Qur'an or asking them to refuse any other speech as long as it is consistent with the Qur'an. That is why those Ayat harmoize perfectly with the Ayat that say obey the messenger.

If you remember, I think Tanveer made a pretty good case that it refers to a single narration. Hadith are not always consistent with the Quran. Black dogs vs the group of believers stuck in a cave with a dog, stoning, etc.

Related to reading a book of human thinkingOne gets the feeling that you are making your mind claim that it is the Qur'an, under the guise of common sense, logic and so forth. If you do not make the book challenge you, then I feel sorry for you.

Of course. The thing is, the book has challenged me. And of course, I shifted.

The same book that you are reading talks about a person who makes his "hawa= desire, air, bias" his God. That is interesting because bias makes itself attractive, but is hot empty air.

Again, simiarity to the case of those who throw around the "deaf and blind" verses. The bias, and desire, works both ways, it works on both sides. It is attractive to think that the majority are always right, but of course, that is also hot air.

Peace peace

siddiq_atl

The quran is not complete in the guidance it gives. However, it is complete in what it is trying to say. It explains all of its concepts. I have never seen a book that doesn't do that (unless there are more volumes) and the quran is no different.
and the quran hasn't been preserved either. If it was "protected," Khalifa would not have been able to make a copy with 2 of the verses missing. Like any other book, it is corruptible, and we must be careful with it.

The Qur'an IS preserved. It still exists in its original form. Because its preserved, Khalifa and others can make all the alterations they want, but all additions and deletions are detectable because the original still exists. Yes, there are corrupt copies of Qur'an, but the original Qur'an IS preserved.

phoenix1

and how can you be sure of that?

hlatif

Salaam Sara,

Brian thanks for your reply, I think the system of sahih as in ?genuine/truth? was authenticated via the chain of narration not the content. What I am failing to discover is how the content was verified so I?m assuming it wasn?t. So in that case, some hadiths could be verified.

The collectors of hadeeth were more interested in collecting hadeeth because they felt that time will run before that knowledge gets to disappear. They generally did not work on the content except for Bukhari who had a school of thought for himself based on his book. However, his school of thought did not survive. The above statement does not mean that they did not have verification of the content. Scholars did refuse many hadeeths based on context's incompatability with the rest of the message. However, they had a wider vision than what is present here. Their vision was that a certain hadeeth has several potential understandings. If one of those understandings is incompatible with the message, then that understanding is rejected but not the hadeeth. One can look at it similarly to the WE of the Qur'an. The WE has many potential understandings. One of them has to be rejected and that is the one that may suggest that God is more than one. So, we do not go and say there is no WE in the Qur'an. We say, that we cannot be understood as meaning many Gods.

Take care and have a great day.

Hussein

hlatif

Salaam OPF,

Alright. Now I get a reasonably consistent picture. The people of Arabia followed Muhammad's companions and the legacy thereof. When I refer to hadith appearing 200 years later, I of course mean the collections of Bukhari and so on. This started in 825, assuming Bukhari started at 15 years of age. 632CE is the supposed date of death of Muhammad, though in other thread on this site, there is evidence that it was earlier so. Either way, that's 200 years of word-of-mouth, several generations - though some texts such as those you talk of did exist, presumably.

You actually do not. The point that I made was that the schools of thought appeared much earlier than Bukhari and where already well placed. They also all took and applied hadeeth before Bukhari. So, with or without Bukhari, there was hadeeth and there were schools of thought.

I would cast doubt on that. What's to say that the "companions" did not decieve those? You would think that they would use the Quran as opposed to listening to what some random people claiming association would have to say. Regardless of that, the question is - "are the modern hadith books an accurate reflection of what actually happened in those times, assuming you're correct?" (rhetorical, don't answer)

I would think that a person who believes in conspiracy theory may convince himself or herself that all the companions were actually Kuffar and conspired to change the message so that no vestige of it survived. However, I am not a conspiracy theorists. As for your second question, the hadeeth books came soon after that period and there were many of them. If they are not accurate, then they are not as blurry as any other technique of verification. The only way one has is to study them thoroughly and see what comes out.

Now, I have you in a Catch-22. Are Jinn metaphysical, or spiritual beings out of perception as per the Hadith? Or are they something more mundane or esoterical depending on how you look at it, for instance Arnold Yasin's POV?

Jinn, linguistically means invisible beings. Arabic words are conceptual. They span the concrete and the abstract and the context gives them further specification. If the context does not limit the meaning to concrete or abstract, then all possibilities are open.

As for Arnold's understanding or JM's or QXP's. They are full of great self contradictions.

Unless, of course, you want to argue that the prophet communicated daily with ghosts and that they happened to be companions . And of course, the Jinnee must open up Sahih-Al-Bukhari every now and then.

When you prove that the above is impossible, come back to me. Absence of proof of existance of the above is not proof of absence.

We are talking about minority. The hadith most certainly were not implemented in the majority of "Muslim empires". I recall much talk about the Sultans having harems with 400 concubines, according to hadith, they should be stoned to death. There were definitely such "good Muslims for 1400 years", but as the Quran says, the majority were never guided. Strawman argument, anyway. I'd recommend you keep away from that. We are not arguing to win or lose, we are arguing to get to the truth, so you must second-guess your replies like a chess computer calculates all the possible paths

Well that minority did not leave a shred of evidence of their presence nor clues for you guys to follow. This is what the Qur'an says about lost signs

2106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
If the proper understanding was forgotten, then the Aya was forgotten for 1400 years.

Can you cite the particular verse? I'm no compendium of Islamic texts, so I can't actually verify what you're quoting is even in context . By the way, if "reading like a parrot" is not what the Quran was made for, I suggest you tell our Sunni brothers over in Pakistan and South Asia to stop encouraging it.

Gladly

1643 AND before thy time, We never sent any but men, whom We inspired and if you have not realized this, ask the followers of revelation,"
1644 with all evidence of the truth and with books of divine wisdom. And upon you have We brought down the reminder, so that you make clear unto mankind what was brought down to them, and that they might take thought.
He was not bringing down to them. He was making it clear.

I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant "mu'min". Because "muslim" is a very broad term. And of course, all of these are states of minds, not religions. One can drift in and out of being a mushrik, muslim, mu'min, kaffir, whatever. Tell me, did Abraham, a Muslim, conform to the madhab of Shafi, Hanbal, Maliki or Hanafi? Which one? And Moses? Jesus?

No Sunni ever claimed that you need to be a follower of any of those to be a Muslim.

This is another problem with the Sunni definition of "Muslim". The Quran does not describe a Muslim as "He who accepts the 5 pillars of Islam", the Quran describes a Muslim as "he who submits to the one God". If translated, this matches the English term "monotheist". If Sunnis actually bothered to make this distinction, we would be that much closer to our Jewish and Christian brethren, and they might see Islam as not "just another religion". Where in the Quran does it say "these are the five fundamental pillars"? Let me stress it again - the entire Quran can be effectively be summed up in 6151-153. No mention of "5 pillars". The Quran does not count pillars, it counts character.

The five pillars came about in response to groups of Muslims who removed the label of Islam from other people. Those groups declared non Muslim any person with a significant sin, any person who does not follow the family of the prophet or any person who believes differently from them. The five pillars were based on the big "Dos" that the Qur'an emphasized all the time, and not on the prohibitions.

As for the issue of Monotheism, it has been an issue that has been used and abused by many groups for wrong reasons or conclusions. One of them, is the accusation of Shirk against anyone who prays towards Mecca. So, slogans are attractive, but not when they are used to mislead.

Again, in practice, it is a wholly different matter. Quranists are imprisoned for their beliefs by the guardians of the most oppressive of Sunni institutes - Al-Azhar. Again, do you have evidence of these 5 pillars? 6151-153, again.

There are misguided Sunnis and Quranists everywhere. The job of the wiser heads is to make change on their own groups by word or deed.

You asked for context about Liyuthhirahu= to make it apparent or above. Here it is
Muhammad Assad

931 They have taken their rabbis and their monks-as well as the Christ, son of Mary-for their lords beside God, although they had been bidden to worship none but the One God, save whom there is no deity the One who is utterly remote, in His limitless glory, from anything to which they may ascribe a share in His divinity!

932 They want to extinguish God's light with their utterances but God will not allow , for He has willed to spread His light in all its fullness, however hateful this may be to all who deny the truth.

933 He it is who has sent forth His Apostle with the guidance and the religion of truth, to the end that He may cause it to prevail over all religion -however hateful this may be to those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God.

What has prevailed over the last 1400 years? False religion and did not even leave any evidence of the true religion. So much so that Imam Ayman is having to trust writings of monks and Rabbis about Islam.

Sunnis are not bound by scholars. They can follow whoever they want. Just because some do follow, does not make it a case for generalization.

I haven't looked in-depth at salat yet. If Sunni-ism is the correct way, then I probably will revert then. So of course, some will do X, Y, or Z, but then, we have only moved the "disorder" one order of magnitude up. For instance, some will come into the mosque and pray 2 rakat. Others will pray 4. Others will sit there and think "who are these idiots... that hadith is false according to Mullah X". Do we raise our hands at each bowing or not? Etc...

Those difference pale in comparison when some of you consider Salat metaphysical whereas others consider it different. All Muslims will pray together when together and follow one leader in one direction no matter where their hands are placed.

Also of note is that a paradox arises out of the traditional way of thought. There is a hadith I remember, it's present in my copy of Bukhari, I believe, and a few Sunni texts. According to this, the messenger states that one night of 5 prayers is better than the worship of a devout Jew for 1000 months - 84 years. This is the traditional understanding of "lailatul-qadr", based on the thought that it is a specific night that the Quran "was sent down on" and that everything on this night is "better than a thousand months". Considering that the devout Jew must have prayed several times a day, inevitably on the "night of power" several times, does that mean he has effectively infinite good deeds? Because, of course, his prayer on the night of power is better than some Jew (him ) who happened to believe and never miss a prayer for 84 years. It's as if this Jew was walking through a hall of mirrors, his good deeds are so magnified!

No one can have enough good deeds. In the end, we are all poor and in need for God's mercy. Some people have more good deeds than others. This does not mean to make the one with less good deeds a lesser person.

As for prayer and it's significance, I do know that it has helped me a lot. I am not here to answer for others nor to explain why your prayer did not work for you. That is between each of us and God. Each step of the Salat has a purpose. If you contemplate on them you will see them.

If you remember, I think Tanveer made a pretty good case that it refers to a single narration. Hadith are not always consistent with the Quran. Black dogs vs the group of believers stuck in a cave with a dog, stoning, etc.

He obviously did not look at the "context". The context was about rejectors of the message and not acceptors of it. He also had a problem understanding of the Arabic of the Aya. There was no talk of a single hadeeth.

Of course. The thing is, the book has challenged me. And of course, I shifted.

There is always more room for more challenge to all of us.

Again, simiarity to the case of those who throw around the "deaf and blind" verses. The bias, and desire, works both ways, it works on both sides. It is attractive to think that the majority are always right, but of course, that is also hot air.

True and we all have to be honest with ourselves and with God.

Take care and have a great day.

Hussein

unknownuser

Peace all,

The God distinguishes the good from the bad, the truthful from the liars and the believers/submitters from the rejecters/disbelievers through His words and various tests in this life. One way He distinguishes through His words is by asking rhetorical questions.

Some claim that according to the context, The God asks those questions only from the rejecters of His revelations, which is incorrect and misleading. Let us see the context of some of those questions

484 So fight in the cause of God; you are not responsible except for yourself. And enjoin the believers "Perhaps God will put a stop to the might of those who disbelieved." And God is far Mightier and far more Punishing.
485 Whoever intercedes with a good intercession, he will have a reward of it; and whoever intercedes with an evil intercession, he will receive a share of it. And God has control over all things.
486 And if you are greeted with a greeting, then return an even better greeting or return the same. God is Reckoning over all things.
487 God, there is no god but He. He will gather you for the Day of Resurrection in which there is no doubt. Who is more truthful in HADEETH than God?

As one can clearly see from the context, The God is asking this question from the believers "Who is more truthful in HADEETH than God ?". The true believer will answer "NONE", and will thus not trust any hadeeth other than The God's words.

451 H.M.
452 The revelation of the Scripture is from God, the Noble, the Wise.
453 In the heavens and the Earth are signs for the believers.
454 And in your creation, and what creatures He puts forth are signs for people who are certain.
455 And the alternation of the night and the day, and what God sends down from the sky of provisions to revive the land after its death, and the changing of the winds; are signs for a people who understand.
456 These are God's revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which HADEETH after God and His revelations do they believe/trust?
457 Woe to every sinful fabricator.
458 He hears God's revelations being recited to him, then he persists arrogantly, as if he never heard them. Give him news of a painful retribution.

Here also it is clear that the context of the question "in which narration after God and His revelations do they believe/trust?" are the believers. The true believers will answer "NONE OTHER THAN THE GOD'S WORDS".

Then 457-8 is about those who will trust ahadeeth other than The God's revelations, and their behavior described in those signs is quite similar to those who keep trusting/believing hadeeth other than The God's words, despite being given a clear message by The God in the form of a rhetorical question not to trust any hadeeth other than The God's words. If that is not denying the God's words then what is ?

The rhetorical questions themselves imply that those who trust/believe hadeeth other than The God's words are the rejecters and deniers of The God's revelations, and thus qualify/define the deniers of The God's revelations in their context those who trust/believe hadeeth other than The God's words. In other words, these questions are designed to expose deniers (mukazzabeen) of The God's revelations (7182-185, 7749-50).

The message of these questions is thus extremely clear, i.e. DO NOT TRUST/BELIEVE ANY HADEETH OTHER THAN THE GOD'S WORDS. These questions also ingeniously expose the hypocrites who claim that they trust The God's words relevant to their guidance, but in reality they also trust other than The God's words relevant to their guidance.

When asked the following question

In which hadeeth other than The God's words will you trust ?

The true believer will respond "NONE" or "NONE OTHER THAN THE GOD'S WORDS".

The denier of The God's revelations (kaazib) will trust hadeeth other than The God's words too, and will not be able to give the above answer, and will thus be exposed.

These rhetorical questions and their message is applicable to ALL HADEETH FOR ALL TIMES, just like any other message of the Qur'aan. During the revelation of the Qur'aan there were a lot of fabrications/conjectures/baseless hadeeth circulating around, pertaining to the previous messengers, and these rhetorical questions clearly advised the people not to trust those hadeeth other than The God's words, relevant to their guidance. This situation is exactly the same as the current times when a lot of fabrications/conjectures/baseless hadeeth pertaining to the messenger Muhammad are circulating around. These rhetorical questions are applicable to those hadeeth in the same manner as they were applicable to the baseless hadeeth at the time of revelation of the Qur'aan, and clearly give us the message not to trust/believe ANY hadeeth other than The God's words.

HOW DID THE MESSENGER CLARIFY AND TEACH THE QUR'AAN ?

If the unverifiable hearsays attributed to the messenger (the so called hadeeth) explains, clarifies and teaches the Qur'aan, then fact is that approximately 40 % of The Qur'aan is not covered by the so called hadeeth of the messenger. HUH ? Did The God forget to make sure His entire message was clarified and taught properly ? o nope

The messenger clarified and taught the Qur'aan using the clarifications given in the Qur'aan itself. The Qur'aan itself is the clarification and the teaching. The clarification and teaching is in the Qur'aan itself.

1689 And the Day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the scripture as a clarification for all things, and a guide and mercy and good tidings to those who have submitted.

2185 A month, marked by heat, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion.

3138 This is a clarification for the people and a reminder for the righteous.

2159 Surely those who conceal what We have sent down to them of the clarity and the guidance, after We Had made it clear for the people in the scripture; these will be cursed by God and be cursed by those who curse.

121 A.L.R, these are the signs of the clarifying scripture.

262 These are the signs of the scripture of clarity.

442 And the clarifying scripture.

The Reminder itself (the Qur'aan) is what makes clear to the people what was sent to them, what they disputed in, how to remember, every example, warnings, lessons for the righteous, the straight path etc.

1644 With clarity and the Psalms. And We sent down to you the reminder to make clear to the people what was sent to them, and perhaps they will think.

1664 And We did not send down the scripture to you except that you may clarify to them that in which they disputed, and as a guidance and mercy to a people who believe.

1741 And We have clarified in this Qur'an so they may remember, but it only increases their aversion!

1789 And We have clarified to the people in this Qur'an from every example, but most people refuse to be anything but a rejecter!

1854 And We have clarified in this Qur'an for the people from every example; but mankind was always most argumentative.

20113 And it was such that We sent it down as an Arabic compilation, and We clarified in it some of the warnings, perhaps they will become aware or it will cause for them a remembrance.

2434 And We have sent down to you clarifying revelations and an example of those who came before you and a lesson for the righteous.

2446 We have sent down to you clarifying revelations, and God guides whoever He wills to a straight path.

The God clarifies His revelations in the Qur'aan itself (2118, 2159, 2219, 2221, 2230, 2242, 3103, 575, 589, 1024, 2418, 2458, 2459, 302

The messenger clarified for the people, what they were hiding from the scripture, the good news and the warnings, sanctity of life, what they disputed in, the straight path etc., using THE CLARIFICATION (God's revelations) ITSELF

515 O people of the scripture, Our messenger has come to you to clarify for you much of what you were hiding from the scripture, and to remit over much. A light has come to you from God and a clarifying Scripture.

519 O people of the Scripture, Our messenger has come to clarify for you after a lack of messengers; so that you cannot say "No bearer of good news or warner has come to us;" for a bearer of good news and a warner has come to you; and God is capable of all things.

532 It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel "Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarification, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the Earth.

The part in blue in 532 is clarification of the sanctity of life conveyed by the messengers.

1664 And We did not send down the scripture to you except that you may clarify to them that in which they disputed, and as a guidance and mercy to a people who believe.

The messenger clarified by delivering the clarity itself

592 And obey God and obey the messenger, and be aware. If you turn away then know that it is the duty of the messenger to deliver the clarity.

1635 And those who set up partners said "If God had wished it, we would not have served anything besides Him; neither us nor our fathers; nor would we have forbidden anything without Him." Those before them did the exact same thing; so are the messengers required to do anything but deliver the clarity?

The scripture itself contains the knowledge and teachings, relevant to our guidance

752 And We have come to them with a scripture which We have detailed with knowledge; a guide and a mercy to those who believe.

319 The system with God is submission, and those who received the scripture did not dispute except after the knowledge came to them out of jealousy between them. And whoever rejects God's signs, then God is swift in judgment.

3540 Say "Do you see the partners whom you have called on besides God? Show me what they have created on Earth. Or do they possess any partnership in the heavens? Or have We given them a scripture wherein they are taking knowledge from it? Indeed, what the transgressors promise one another is no more than arrogance."

5336 Or was he not informed of the teachings in the Scriptures of Moses?

2145 And if you come to those who have been given the scripture with every sign they will not follow your focal point, nor will you follow their focal point, nor will some of them even follow each others focal point. And if you were to follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you would be one of the wicked.

The Qur'aan itself is the teaching

16103 And We are aware that they say "A human is teaching him." The language of the one they refer to is foreign, while this is a clear Arabic language.

3669 And We did not teach him poetry, nor does he need it. This is a reminder and a clear Qur'an.

The messenger taught the scripture by conveying the teachings/knowledge contained in the scripture itself to the people. He taught them to extract the teachings/knowledge contained in the Qur'aan by studying the Qur'aanic context of the signs and cross-referencing, integrating and gathering similar signs from all over the Qur'aan to find out their best meaning and the overall picture, relevant to any aspect of guidance.

The God has made it incumbent upon Himself to explain/clarify His message

7516 Do not move your tongue with it to make haste.
7517 It is for Us to gather it into a compilation.
7518 So when We compile it, you shall follow its compilation.
7519 Then it is for Us to explain it.

Relevant to our guidance to the straight path, those who trust hadeeth other than The God's words, are deniers (mukazzabeen) of The God's revelations.

By trusting hadeeth other than The God's words, they deny that the Qur'aan is fully detailed and contains details of everything and is complete relevant to our guidance, despite The God telling them so (6114-115, 12111, 1712).

By trusting hadeeth other than The God's words, they deny that the Qur'aan contains every example relevant to our guidance, despite The God telling them so (1789, 3927).

By trusting hadeeth other than The God's words, they deny that the Qur'aan contains clear explanation of everything relevant to our guidance, despite The God telling them so (1689).

By trusting hadeeth other than The God's words, they deny that the Qur'aan is enough for our guidance, despite The God telling them so (2951).

By trusting hadeeth other than The God's words, they deny that the messenger followed only the Qur'aan, despite The God telling them so (1015, 4105, 548-49).

Those who deny The God's revelations are indeed wicked people and will have terrible retribution

621 And who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God, or denies His revelations! The wicked will never succeed.

6157 Or you say "If the Scripture was sent to us we would have been more guided than they!" Clarity has come to you from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy. Who is more wicked than one who denies God's revelations and turns away from them? We will punish those who turn away from Our revelations with the pain of retribution for what they turned away.

737 Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God, or denies His revelations? These will receive their recompense from the record; so that when Our messengers come to terminate their lives, they will say "Where are those whom you used to call on besides God?" they said "They have abandoned us!" and they bore witness upon themselves that they were rejecters.

1017 Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God or denies His revelations? The criminals will never succeed.

Following the Qur'aan is Obeying The God AND also obeying and following the messenger for many reasons

FOLLOWING THE QUR'AAN IS FOLLOWING THE MESSENGER

Following the messenger is clearly equated with following the scripture sent down with him

7157 "Those who follow the Gentile messenger prophet whom they find written for them in the Torah and the Injeel; he orders them to goodness, and deters them from evil, and he makes lawful for them the good things, and he forbids for them the evil, and he removes their burden and the shackles that are upon them. So those who believe in him, and support him, and help him persevere, and follow the light that was sent down with him; these are the successful."

The purpose of sending a messenger is clearly so that people can follow The God's revelations

20134 And if We had destroyed them with retribution before this, they would have said "Our Lord, if only You had sent us a messenger so we could follow Your revelations before we are humiliated and shamed!"

2847 Thus, if any disaster strikes them as a consequence of their own deeds they cannot Say "Our Lord, if only You sent a messenger to us, so that we would follow Your revelations, and we would be of the believers."

THE QUR'AAN CAME THROUGH THE MESSENGER

If it had only said obey The God, then people could have denied the Qur'aan and refused to follow it because it came through the messenger (619, 1015, 123, 1587, 202, 276, 3669, 7623). Then they could have justified following ANYTHING THEY THOUGHT TO BE WORD OF GOD for obeying The God.

THE QUR'AAN CONTAINS THE TRUE/AUTHENTIC AHADEETH OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD

Following the Qur'aan is both obeying The God AND obeying the messenger, because it contains the true hadeeth of the messenger. Prophet Muhammad is not among us any more. The only way we can obey him while obeying The God is to BELIEVE/TRUST WHAT HE ACTUALLY SAID, i.e. his authentic hadeeth, and not unverifiable hearsays and conjectures falsely attributed to him.

All the 100 % authentic hadeeth of the messenger RELEVANT AND NECESSARY FOR OUR GUIDANCE are in the Qur'aan. There are many signs in the Qur'aan addressed to the messenger, commanding him to "say". The messenger obviously said those things to his people, thereby becoming his hadeeth as well. When one follows the message of those signs, one is obeying The God AND also obeying the messenger.

Actually that is true for the whole Qur'aan, because it came to us only through him, and is thus his "qawl"/speech/saying too. Thus when we follow and obey the message of the Qur'aan, we are obeying The God AND obeying the messenger.

6940 This is the speech/saying/utterance (qawl) of an honorable messenger.
6941 It is not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
6942 Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.
6943 A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.

THE QUR'AAN CONTAINS THE TRUE AUTHENTIC AHADEETH OF OTHER MESSENGERS

We have been commanded not to differentiate among the messengers. All the messengers came from the same God and brought the same message, and thus in order to obey The God and follow the messengers, we have to follow the hadeeth of all the messengers. How come most of the sectarians seem interested in finding and following hadeeth of Muhammad but do not seem to care about following hadeeth of other messengers ? Is that not differentiating among The God's messengers ? Where can we find the authentic hadeeth of Noah, Abraham, David, Moses, Jesus etc. ? All those true/authentic hadeeth of all messengers relevant to our guidance can be found in the Qur'aan.

2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers "We do not differentiate between any of His messengers;" and they said "We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny."

THE MESSENGER FOLLOWED ONLY THE QUR'AAN

Following the Qur'aan is both obeying The God AND obeying the messenger because the messenger followed only the Qur'aan and judged by using only the Qur'aan.

1015 And when Our clear revelations are recited to them, those who do not wish to meet Us said "Bring a Qur'an other than this, or change it!" Say "It is not for me to change it of my own accord, I merely follow what is inspired to me. I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the retribution of a great day!"

4105 We have revealed to you the scripture with truth that you may judge between the people by that which God has shown you, and do not be an advocate for the treacherous.

548 And We have sent down to you the scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.

549 And judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their wishes, and beware lest they divert you away from some of what God has sent down to you. If they turn away, then know that God wants to inflict them with some of their sins; and most of the people are corrupt.

THE QUR'AAN ITSELF IS A MESSENGER

It does not say obey Muhammad, but says obey the messenger which refers to both the Prophet (generally) and the Qur'aan (in one instance)

6510-11 God has prepared for them a severe retribution. Therefore, you shall be aware of God, O you who possess intelligence and believed. God has sent down to you a remembrance, a messenger that declares/conveys to you God's revelations, which are clear, to lead those who believe and work righteousness out of the darkness into the light. Anyone who believes in God and does good works, He will admit him into paradises with rivers flowing beneath; they abide therein forever. God has granted for him and excellent reward.

There is no "wa"/and between "zikr"/reminder/remembrance and "rasool"/messenger in the above signs, indicating that the "zikr" (referring to the Qur'aan) is being called the messenger.

DO NOT TRUST ANY HADEETH OTHER THAN THE GOD'S WORDS.

This has been discussed in detail in the first part of this post above. Thus the ONLY way to obey The God AND obey the messenger is to follow The God's words.

The God commanded us to obey The God and obey the messenger, not obey Bokhari and company. All the true hadeeth of the messenger relevant to our guidance is already contained in the Qur'aan.

THE EXTRA-QUR'AANIC HADEETH ARE REDUNDANT EVEN IF TRUE

Even if some extra-Qur'aanic hadeeth attributed to the Prophet is consistent with an aspect of the Qur'aanic signs, it is redundant anyway and is thus not needed for our guidance, as the Qur'aan says the same thing. All the true hadeeth of the messenger relevant to our guidance is already contained in the Qur'aan.

THE GOD PRESERVED ONLY THE MESSAGE OF THE QUR'AAN

159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.

4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy.

The God never promised to preserve the extra-Qur'aanic so called hadeeth, i.e. the unverifiable hearsays attributed to the prophet. I wonder why !

THE PROPHET'S COMPLAINT OF ABANDONING/DESERTING THE QUR'AAN

2530 And the messenger said "My Lord, my people have deserted this Qur'an."

He will not say "my people have deserted this Qur'aan and my hadeeth".

I do not wish to indulge in any discussion with those who trust other than The God's hadeeth, and to them all I have to say is TO YOU YOUR DEEN AND TO ME MINE.

May The God guide us all to the straight path and the truth and give us the strength to trust only in His hadeeth.

unknownuser

Peace all,

There are those who translate "tawwafoo" in 2229 as "circumambulate" (seven times ?) hmm o nope

My comment to them is, if that is true, then in 2458 we hear about "circumambulating" (tawwafoona) each other in 2458 (seven times ?), and the cups, dishes, round vessels of silver, and goblets of gold and crystal will "circumambulate" (taafu) the people in heaven according to 3745, 4371, and 7615 (seven times ?), and youths will "circumambulate" (toofu) those people according to 5224, 5617, and 7619 (seven times ?), and the people in hell will "circumambulate" (toofoona) the boiling hot water per 5544 (seven times ?), and wind "circumambulated" (taafa) the farms per 6819 (seven times ?) rotfl

unknownuser

Peace all,

Firstly, mr. paradoxia conveniently forgot my second post on the issue

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14594.msg135053#msg135053

Peace Sarah,

I forgot to add one more comment to the mathematical equations you quoted.

The following equation quoted by you

Quran = {Rule 1, Rule 2, ....... Rule N, (prophets practices and lessons applicable from them)}

CLEARLY indicates that the red part "prophet's practices and lessons applicable from them" is already included in the Quran (do you see the "=" between "Quran" and the red part ?).

This exposes the deception in the conclusion inferred from this equation

The last rule accounts for the "any useful lessons from prophets practices" that can be extracted that is not there in the initial set of Rules (1 to N) in Quran. Hence if a ruling is not found in Quran then use ur wisdome on the prophets practices and accomodate new laws for the society. etc.

First the deceiver tells you that "any useful lessons from prophets practices" is not there in the initial set of Rules, which itself is a false statement because of the Qur'aanic definition of it being fully detailed, complete, containing every example, enough for our guidance, and the prophet following only the Qur'aan.

Then the deceiver says "hence if a ruling is not found in Quran"; how can one infer this when the red part referring to that ruling is clearly part of Quran ACCORDING TO THE EQUATION ITSELF ? hmm

Secondly,

Tanveer, I draw your attention to the point (3) that you state you indeed admit, Quran in the second equation consists of FINITE rules. and taking these rules one by one (not including the red part highlighted), you claim these are the FINITE rules that make the book COMPLETE in this such diverse life (with INFINITE choices and problems) we live in, today, in 21st centory?

I see some great truths in the arguments mentioned in those set theories. I do see some weekness in the wordings, but I think I can mend that. But I am not going to. its not worth it seeing how stupid some ppl here have been.

Your point (2) ... again your claims are quite falacious. Quran by definition (if only BLUE rules are considered) is not complete. Re my above points.

Prophet's practices were also FINITE, so how can his FINITE practices cover the INFINITE situations of life ? (Ouch, that hurt, didn't it ?)
The FINITE rules of the Qur'aan encompass both FINITE situations AND INFINITE situations by giving specific rules for the FINITE situations and by giving LIMITS and GUIDELINES for the INFINITE situations. Capisce ?

How stupid can someone be to have overlooked the above two possibilities ? elektro

Prophet indeed followed the Quran. Did he also find the way to perform prayer in the Quran? Is that why he did it the way we do it now? I wont even bother mentioning other examples.

Indeed, the prophet established "salaat" (not prayer; prayer = "dua&quot EXACTLY according to the FULLY DETAILED way of establishing salaat as given in the Qur'aan. It was not exactly as done by the sectarians now because the current sectarian way contradicts the Qur'aan in many aspects (for example, the "sujood" being on the forehead instead of the chin as per the Qur'aan, the non-Qur'aanic additions in pre-salaat washing, remembrance of the prophet in addition to remembrance of The God etc. etc.), and the prophet NEVER contradicted or added to the Qur'aanic teachings.

I would take heed to what someone wrote here "if sea was the ink, then it would run out before Allahs words could be finished with it". indeed Quran is a cut down, compact for me dos n donts. absolute bare minimum to keep the faith. it is pretty much as the above set described. A collection of FINITE RULES, and with the INCLUSION of one important "property" (u cud say rule) of allowance of "take heed from prophets practices".

The God calls His words "signs"/"ayaat", and His signs are also found within us and in the horizons i.e. the entire universe around us.

4153 We will show them Our signs (ayaat) in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?

The total number of atoms in the universe is 10 raised to the power of 80, and indeed if the sea was the ink, then it would run out before The God's words/signs could be finished with it.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe

Yes you could be right what we call prophets practices, how do we know if they r realy his practices. Well then i cud ask, what you call Quran, how do you know if its realy is EXACTLY what Allah ment to send down?

See 4153 above. Also

159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.

4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy.

Talking about sending stuff down, for those who think the prophets job was only to note down the message, I would say, well if that was the case then Quran would have been sent down within 1 min. I am sure you Allah could excercise his 'ability' to do things lightning fast. But NO! it was sent down over years! 23 years is it? correct me perhaps??? why??? so we cud follow it word by word? I dont think so.

The God has already answered this

2532 And those who rejected said "If only the Qur'an was sent down to him in one go!" It was done as such so We could strengthen your heart with it, and We arranged it accordingly.

A sane explanation would be, to memorise it, understand it, and watch how it was practiced by the prophet. A good analogy I could give is Quran is like a skeleton, and prophets practices would be the meat covering it, giving it an example of "HOW" it could look like in the end product. It is VERY IMPORTANT to stress that prophets practices would NOT be the ONLY way to cover up (Mesh around) the skeleton. Just as there are different looks from one human to another human (resulting from varying formation of meat on the skeleton), there would be surely more than one way of doing things, and not just blind following every single practices the prophet did. Indeed the prophet stressed this very point also.

ALL EXAMPLES and ALL HADEETH of the messengers relevant to our guidance to the straight path are contained in the Qur'aan (see my lengthy post above). For some situations in life, LIMITS and GUIDELINES have been given in the Qur'aan and any variance in those situations is perfectly acceptable as long as it is WITHIN THOSE LIMITS/GUIDELINES.

Having said that... for those who want to be on the 'safe side' or 'i dono he did it this way, so i thought it was the right way', we can take prophets practices as the 'model' and work on it.

The "model", relevant to our guidance, has already been given in the Qur'aan. See above.

The Verse
?O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger, and those in authority amongst you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.? (459)

I think this verse is an enough clue to represent the argument showed in the set theory posted by Sarah. For those seeming wise out here, I would like to ask, why cudnt Allah say "Obay Allah" only??? are you saying Obeying the messenger same as obeying Allah? if so why didnt Allah say Obey Allah and then Obey Allah again! I thought Allah was wise enough to use words very efficiently SPECIALY when Quran claims to be an art of devine poetry. Such imperfect art it would be then ay? sigh

For those who are wise and humble, I am sure they will see Allahs reason for chosing the words correctly. And wait Allah mentions again, hence stressing the point, follow those in authority, but if u r in dispute then follow Allah AND his messenger.

See my lengthy post above.

Anyway... I am not able to finish off here as I wanted to because of timing constraint. But I believe there are two issues 1) Believing prophets practices are a good way to understand Quran. 2) SOME hadiths are indeed what was practiced in prophets time.

I would say ppl start with 1) first. then once that is in place he/she should move onto 2). if u cant have a firm ground on 1) then I suggest you make your own religion. and if you cant have a firm ground on 2) then I say you might as well not hav faith in the way Quran was preserved.

ALL PROPHET'S PRACTICES relevant to our guidance are contained in the Qur'aan. See above.
In which hadeeth other than The God's words will you believe/trust ? (487, 7185, 456, 7750). Do you have another book which you study ? (6837)

Conjectures, guess work, fabrications, false attributions, unverifiable hearsay DO NOT IMPLY QED. Capisce ?

No further comments from me to mr. paradoxia.

hlatif

Salaam Tanveer,

Thanks for your very colourful post. A lot of what you wrote is something that was touched on before and therefore, I am going to touch on the more important aspects of it.

484 So fight in the cause of God; you are not responsible except for yourself. And enjoin the believers "Perhaps God will put a stop to the might of those who disbelieved." And God is far Mightier and far more Punishing.
485 Whoever intercedes with a good intercession, he will have a reward of it; and whoever intercedes with an evil intercession, he will receive a share of it. And God has control over all things.
486 And if you are greeted with a greeting, then return an even better greeting or return the same. God is Reckoning over all things.
487 God, there is no god but He. He will gather you for the Day of Resurrection in which there is no doubt. Who is more truthful in HADEETH than God?

As one can clearly see from the context, The God is asking this question from the believers "Who is more truthful in HADEETH than God ?". The true believer will answer "NONE", and will thus not trust any hadeeth other than The God's words.

Well, that means that Allah has the most true hadeeth. It does not mean that there is no truth in any other hadeeth. This applies to all hadeeth, whether attributed to the messenger or not. What is the import of this?

That if any statement or potential understanding of a statement was inconsistant or contradictory to a statement from Allah, then that statement is untruth. It cannot mean that any statement from that same source is untrue, for even the most untrue person can have some truths in his or her speech. If one is to take as absolute as you are trying to say, then one should not read anything anywhere including at this forum.

451 H.M.
452 The revelation of the Scripture is from God, the Noble, the Wise.
453 In the heavens and the Earth are signs for the believers.
454 And in your creation, and what creatures He puts forth are signs for people who are certain.
455 And the alternation of the night and the day, and what God sends down from the sky of provisions to revive the land after its death, and the changing of the winds; are signs for a people who understand.
456 These are God's revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which HADEETH after God and His revelations do they believe/trust?
457 Woe to every sinful fabricator.
458 He hears God's revelations being recited to him, then he persists arrogantly, as if he never heard them. Give him news of a painful retribution.

Here the context is about rejectors of the message. Can it apply to the followers of the message? Yes. How? It tells them what I wrote above but in slightly different words

If a statement or understanding of statement is contradictory or inconsistent with God's statement, then a Mumin needs to have more safety in God's message. It does not mean that one should not trust any other speech. It also means that when God tells us to have safety in the messengers, then the messenger's speech is consistent and non contradictory to God's statements, whether the messengers spoke within the Qur'an or outside of it.

If the unverifiable hearsays attributed to the messenger (the so called hadeeth) explains, clarifies and teaches the Qur'aan, then fact is that approximately 40 % of The Qur'aan is not covered by the so called hadeeth of the messenger. HUH ? Did The God forget to make sure His entire message was clarified and taught properly ?

1- So you ask me or anyone to actually believe that someone found the actual content of Qur'an and the actual content of all hadeeth and found 40%. Nonsense. Why? because one cannot know exactly what is hiding within the words of the Qur'an or the hadeeth and the degree of their coverage.

2- If the hadeeth covers 40% of the Qur'an, then that is still much more than what any single person can cover on his own as they read the Qur'an. It does not prevent one from reading. It humbles us. It means that the Qur'an contains so much knowledge that we need all the help that we can get to grasp a fraction of that 40% that the prophet covered.

3- The Qur'an tells us that some of it's messages will be revealed later. So, if the prophet did not have complete knowledge is ok. It will never make your knowledge better nor more adequate than the messenger's. I am sorry to break it to you.

The messenger clarified and taught the Qur'aan using the clarifications given in the Qur'aan itself. The Qur'aan itself is the clarification and the teaching. The clarification and teaching is in the Qur'aan itself.

True, but it does not stop the messenger from using clarifiers from outside the Qur'an, nor does it prevent the messenger from clarifying the Qur'an by the Qur'an but in areas that will be inapparent to the majority of those who read it.

So, when the Qur'an says

Alkitab Al mubeen= the book that clarifies.
and
Litubayyina lahum= in order that you make clear for them.

The first does not contradict the second. It does not limit him to clarify only through the Qur'an. It does not exclude the possibility that he will clarify the Qur'an by the Qur'an but in a way that we all miss. What does that mean?

The first Aya should not stop anyone from reading hadeeth.

The rest of that post was colourful but covered previously.

My comment to them is, if that is true, then in 2458 we hear about "circumambulating" (tawwafoona) each other in 2458 (seven times ?), and the cups, dishes, round vessels of silver, and goblets of gold and crystal will "circumambulate" (taafu) the people in heaven according to 3745, 4371, and 7615 (seven times ?), and youths will "circumambulate" (toofu) those people according to 5224, 5617, and 7619 (seven times ?), and the people in hell will "circumambulate" (toofoona) the boiling hot water per 5544 (seven times ?), and wind "circumambulated" (taafa) the farms per 6819 (seven times ?)

TTa-W-F means, according to Lisan Al Arab, to go around an entity or orbit it or to be around it. This could be by being in circles or it could be by being around. So, in a conceptual manner, there is no linguistic way you can disprove circumbulations except through ridicule and that is not convincing. Arabic words are conceptual. The context decides for it. When you "go around the old house" is different from "going around the farm" or "going around another person". You do not expect all muslims to "hang around the old house" because that will lead to congestion and starvation. So, "going around the old house" will have to be understood differently and going in circles around it is feasible and easier. The fact that the Qur'an says "the old house", then it points to "one identified entity" and not many as some of you suggest, makes the understanding of "hanging around" unlikely.

In your response to Paradoxia,

Prophet's practices were also FINITE, so how can his FINITE practices cover the INFINITE situations of life ? (Ouch, that hurt, didn't it ?)

I do not believe that he suggested the above. No one claims that the messenger's teachings are infinite.

The FINITE rules of the Qur'aan encompass both FINITE situations AND INFINITE situations by giving specific rules for the FINITE situations and by giving LIMITS and GUIDELINES for the INFINITE situations. Capisce ?

You have to decide whether the Qur'an is finite but narrow or finite but wide. If narrow, then you have no point except through empty insistance of all that you are trying to say. If finite and narrow, then you will end up needing more, mainly from hadeeth. If finite and wide, then there is nothing to stop the hadeeth attributed to the messenger from being totally encompassed within the Qur'an, even though you may not be able to see it. This is also what the people of hadeeth as Imam Ahmad and others have always asserted. They assert that the Qur'an contains a lot and that the messenger uncovered a lot of what is in it for others to see. Can one see those things on his or her own? may be but unlikely. This too makes it important for a person to read what the hadeeth says.

The inconsistency with your methodology is that you contradict yourself. You make the Qur'an narrow to exclude hadeeth, and then you make it wide to make your case that it tells us about everything. When you are faced with your inability to find the answers to important things, then you only keep repeating the same unconvincing message that you cannot support "The Qur'an explains all what is needed" Yet you cannot explain Salat, Hajj, Zakat or Saum. Even if you can, you have the clear disability to convince your friends of your views. Eventually, you have to face an honest question

1- Do I believe myself?
2- Am I failing to see what I thought I should see? If so, then you have to acknowledge that others can know more than you and then you have to get their help. Who is better than the messenger for that kind of help?
3- Am I seeing clearly, but unable to convince? Why? Is it becaue It is not as clear? or that I am wrong? or that I am around a group of hypocrites who will never believe anything?
4- Am I understanding things superficially? and then you have to study deeper to prevent yourself from falling into empty insistance of slogans.

Take care and have a great day.

Hussein

Alen

brickwall I feellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll so ANNOYED!
Read people
459 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
so the argument comes, obeying God is following the Quran.
So that leaves obeying the messenger, now how do you obey the messenger if obeying God is obeying the Quran??
What verses say the messengers job is to deliver the message not demonstrate the message?
How can you prove that following the messenger is within the Quran????
salam

Salam.

I get asked by these sunnis all the time, the same question.
They say to me" .... Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger ....

I tell them, fear God.
As soon as i check the verse, verify it, double check, ask The Exalted God The Most Wise for more knowledge, i will know, God willing and tell them, God willing.

Always ask God to extend your knowledge and wisdom, always. God hears your thoughts and therefore prayers as well.

Peace.