7 heavens
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Okay.....I'm back.....
As I can see and understand at this point in my development, with my inclinations to look at the natural world around me for clues into the deeper meanings of things, the saba'a samawaat refers to the seven natural laws that govern and characterize all of creation as we know it -- which fits beautifully in the below quoted verses
It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things."
(The Qur'an, 229)"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."
(The Qur'an, 4112)?Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number??
And with the definition from the Project Root List for "S-M-W"
"ismun - mark of identification by which one is recognised. It is a derivation of wsm (pl. asma). ism - stands for a distinguishing mark of a thing, sometimes said to signify its reality."
However, I will be the first to admit that this view has been formed in my heart and mind as I have accumulated knowledge in general, and I have not pursued an in depth analysis...
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Decked the lower heavens with stars? wtf??
sounds like it was written by a professional astronomer.seriously, though, "heavens" isn't what we think it is. It can't possibly be talking about the universe because it just makes absolutely No sense.
or maybe it's talking about something we'll find out thousands of years later. yeah, that makes perfect sense.
Hehe, I can see what you mean, but the verse doesn't directly instruct the reader to look for signs in this ^_^
I still think it means universes - or something to that effect because of the following verses
037.006
YUSUFALI We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,-
PICKTHAL Lo! We have adorned the lowest heaven with an ornament, the planets;
SHAKIR Surely We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment, the stars,037.007
YUSUFALI (For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits,
PICKTHAL With security from every froward devil.
SHAKIR And (there is) a safeguard against every rebellious Shaitan.037.008
YUSUFALI (So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side,
PICKTHAL They cannot listen to the Highest Chiefs for they are pelted from every side,
SHAKIR They cannot listen to the exalted assembly and they are thrown at from every side,037.009
YUSUFALI Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty,
PICKTHAL Outcast, and theirs is a perpetual torment;
SHAKIR Being driven off, and for them is a perpetual chastisement,037.010
YUSUFALI Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.
PICKTHAL Save him who snatcheth a fragment, and there pursueth him a piercing flame.
SHAKIR Except him who snatches off but once, then there follows him a brightly shining flame.037.011
YUSUFALI Just ask their opinion are they the more difficult to create, or the (other) beings We have created? Them have We created out of a sticky clay!
PICKTHAL Then ask them (O Muhammad) Are they stronger as a creation, or those (others) whom we have created? Lo! We created them of plastic clay.
SHAKIR Then ask them whether they are stronger in creation or those (others) whom We have created. Surely We created them of firm clay.Saba means 7 or Several in Classic Arabic. In the Quran, it is always used as Several and NOT as 7.
Are you sure?
2196, 1243 (and following verses), 1587 (interesting one in itself), 1822, 69007 (definitely 7 since it has 7 days vs 8 nights) all have 7 as the number and not as "several".
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Peace OPF,
Thanks for the correction. What I meant was when Saba is used with Creation or examples it means several, same accounts for Yauw which can be Period and Day, with creation it is six periods, not six days.
Saba in classic Arabic is used for several. For example this verse was misunderstood to be talking about Surah Al-Fatiha, but then it would fall out of context with the surroundign verses.
1587 We have given you several examples from history that repeats itself, and We have given you this Sublime Qur?an
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It may please be noted that Quran e Majeed has never said that the sky of the earth is adorned with stars.
In na_ zay yan nas sama_ ad dun ya_ bizinatinil kawa_kib
We have adorned the lower sky with Planets. {3706}Root can never be translated as ?star? since Quran e Majeed has made a clear distinction between the celestial bodies. First time this word occurs in 676
Falamma_ janna 'alaihil lailu ra'a_ kaukaba_(n)Here one thing has been made conspicuous ?darkness of the night? and he saw one . At night there are numerous stars visible to naked eye. Quran e Majeed came in 7th century but people have known the distinction between stars and planets from couple of centuries BC.The basic difference between both, as we know, is that stars emit light but planets don?t have own light, they reflect light. How both could have same meanings and termed as stars?
After sun and moon, planet Venus is the mist shining object. It is visible on sky three hours before sunrise and for three hours after sunset. After these three object planet Jupiter is the brightest object. It is three times brighter than the brightest star Sirius. Because of its prominence, the Romans had given it name Jupiter after the name of their bigger god, idol.
Al Qurtabi says
Al Jalalain saysWho was right?
The difference between Venus and Jupiter is that Venus after three hours disappears and is not visible till three hours before sunset. Jupiter, when it is visible from earth, does not disappear but remains visible. And Quran e Majeed tells that the planet which was seen by Ibrahim {Peace is upon him} had then disappeared {} from their sight. Thus it is clear that he had pointed towards Venus after quite some time of sunset but within three hours of the sunset.Quran has drawn a vivid distinction between planets and stars. It says
Wa huwal lazi ja'ala lakumun nuju_ma litahtadu_ biha_ fi zulumatil barri wal bahr(i), qad fassalnal a_ya_ti liqaumiy ya'lamu_n(a).
Allah is one who has appointed for you stars so that you may guide/find direction yourselves with their help through the dark {unmarked} spaces of land and sea We have made distinct Our Ayat so that people may know/get informed. {697}
wa bin najmi hum yahtadu_n(a).
And with one star they get the direction/destination/guidance.{Ref 1616}Quran has never said that people can get guidance/direction from Kwakib, Planets. And neither said that the sky of earth is adorned with Najoom, stars.
Distinction between them is also visible from their end.
Wa idzal kawa_kibun tatsarat
Wa idzal biha_ru fuj jirat {Ref 8202-03}?un tatsarat? and ?fuj jirat? have the commonality of ?scatter?. Both reflect light and absorb light.
And the end of Stars is this
Wa idzan nuju_mun kadarat
When the stars fall losing their luster/light; {Ref 8102}Fa iza nuju_mu tumisat
Wa izal jiba_lu nusifat
Then when the stars become scattered;
When the mountains are scattered (to the winds) as dust ;{ Ref 77 08, 10}Faka_nat haba_ am mun bats sa_
{Mountains} Becoming dust/Gases scattered {Ref 5610}
And we know stars are massive shining sphere of hot gas {dust like}.As regards Harun Yahya?s opinion
?The word "heavens", which appears in many verses in the Qur'an, is used to refer to the sky above the Earth, as well as the entire universe. Given this meaning of the word, it is seen that the Earth's sky, or the atmosphere, is made up of seven layers. (Layers of Atmosphere-Miracles of Quran-Harun Yahya)It is not correct. It amounts to negating the vastness of words/concepts of Arabic Language and also negates what Quran calls about its Ayat ??.
We are not yet aware of the vastness of skies and will never be able to conceive/perceive it since it is expanding all the time. But Quran has given details of our solar system in an elaborate manner. When one sky has that vastness how can this word be used for seven layers of atmosphere?
Perhaps seven layers of atmosphere are mentioned here
Wa laqad halaqnal insa_na min sula_latim min tin
Sum ma jaalna_hu nutfaran fi qara_rim makin
Sum ma halaqnan nutfata alaqatan fahalaqnal alaqata mudgatan fahalaqnal mudgata iza_man fa kasaunal iza_ma lahma_ sum ma ansana_hu halqan a_har fataba_rakal la_hu ahsanul ha_liqin
Sum ma in nakum bada za_lika lamay yitu_n
Sum ma in nakum yaumal qiya_mati tubasu_n
Wa laqad halaqna_ fauqakum saba tara_iq wa ma_ kun na_ anil halqi ga_filin
And in the past We had made above you seven tracts; and We are never unmindful of (safety of our) Creation {2312-16}Wa banaina_ fauqakum saban syida_da_
And (have We not) built over you the seven firmaments {Ref 7812}And perhaps reason for these seven layers is told in the next verse
Wa ja'alna_ sira_jaw wah ha_ja_Nature of sun is explained by the word wah ha_ja. This is dangerous. These seven layers protect from this feature of the sun.
May Allah guide us all. -
Salaam bro Mazhar,
Thank you for this excellent understanding.
It may please be noted that Quran e Majeed has never said that the sky of the earth is adorned with stars.
In na_ zay yan nas sama_ ad dun ya_ bizinatinil kawa_kib
We have adorned the lower sky with Planets. {3706}Root can never be translated as ?star? since Quran e Majeed has made a clear distinction between the celestial bodies. First time this word occurs in 676
Falamma_ janna 'alaihil lailu ra'a_ kaukaba_(n)Here one thing has been made conspicuous ?darkness of the night? and he saw one . At night there are numerous stars visible to naked eye. Quran e Majeed came in 7th century but people have known the distinction between stars and planets from couple of centuries BC.The basic difference between both, as we know, is that stars emit light but planets don?t have own light, they reflect light. How both could have same meanings and termed as stars?
After sun and moon, planet Venus is the mist shining object. It is visible on sky three hours before sunrise and for three hours after sunset. After these three object planet Jupiter is the brightest object. It is three times brighter than the brightest star Sirius. Because of its prominence, the Romans had given it name Jupiter after the name of their bigger god, idol.
Al Qurtabi says
Al Jalalain saysWho was right?
The difference between Venus and Jupiter is that Venus after three hours disappears and is not visible till three hours before sunset. Jupiter, when it is visible from earth, does not disappear but remains visible. And Quran e Majeed tells that the planet which was seen by Ibrahim {Peace is upon him} had then disappeared {} from their sight. Thus it is clear that he had pointed towards Venus after quite some time of sunset but within three hours of the sunset.Quran has drawn a vivid distinction between planets and stars. It says
Wa huwal lazi ja'ala lakumun nuju_ma litahtadu_ biha_ fi zulumatil barri wal bahr(i), qad fassalnal a_ya_ti liqaumiy ya'lamu_n(a).
Allah is one who has appointed for you stars so that you may guide/find direction yourselves with their help through the dark {unmarked} spaces of land and sea We have made distinct Our Ayat so that people may know/get informed. {697}
wa bin najmi hum yahtadu_n(a).
And with one star they get the direction/destination/guidance.{Ref 1616}Quran has never said that people can get guidance/direction from Kwakib, Planets. And neither said that the sky of earth is adorned with Najoom, stars.
Distinction between them is also visible from their end.
Wa idzal kawa_kibun tatsarat
Wa idzal biha_ru fuj jirat {Ref 8202-03}?un tatsarat? and ?fuj jirat? have the commonality of ?scatter?. Both reflect light and absorb light.
And the end of Stars is this
Wa idzan nuju_mun kadarat
When the stars fall losing their luster/light; {Ref 8102}Fa iza nuju_mu tumisat
Wa izal jiba_lu nusifat
Then when the stars become scattered;
When the mountains are scattered (to the winds) as dust ;{ Ref 77 08, 10}Faka_nat haba_ am mun bats sa_
{Mountains} Becoming dust/Gases scattered {Ref 5610}
And we know stars are massive shining sphere of hot gas {dust like}.As regards Harun Yahya?s opinion
?The word "heavens", which appears in many verses in the Qur'an, is used to refer to the sky above the Earth, as well as the entire universe. Given this meaning of the word, it is seen that the Earth's sky, or the atmosphere, is made up of seven layers. (Layers of Atmosphere-Miracles of Quran-Harun Yahya)It is not correct. It amounts to negating the vastness of words/concepts of Arabic Language and also negates what Quran calls about its Ayat ??.
We are not yet aware of the vastness of skies and will never be able to conceive/perceive it since it is expanding all the time. But Quran has given details of our solar system in an elaborate manner. When one sky has that vastness how can this word be used for seven layers of atmosphere?
Perhaps seven layers of atmosphere are mentioned here
Wa laqad halaqnal insa_na min sula_latim min tin
Sum ma jaalna_hu nutfaran fi qara_rim makin
Sum ma halaqnan nutfata alaqatan fahalaqnal alaqata mudgatan fahalaqnal mudgata iza_man fa kasaunal iza_ma lahma_ sum ma ansana_hu halqan a_har fataba_rakal la_hu ahsanul ha_liqin
Sum ma in nakum bada za_lika lamay yitu_n
Sum ma in nakum yaumal qiya_mati tubasu_n
Wa laqad halaqna_ fauqakum saba tara_iq wa ma_ kun na_ anil halqi ga_filin
And in the past We had made above you seven tracts; and We are never unmindful of (safety of our) Creation {2312-16}Wa banaina_ fauqakum saban syida_da_
And (have We not) built over you the seven firmaments {Ref 7812}And perhaps reason for these seven layers is told in the next verse
Wa ja'alna_ sira_jaw wah ha_ja_Nature of sun is explained by the word wah ha_ja. This is dangerous. These seven layers protect from this feature of the sun.
May Allah guide us all. -
Ya ! i agree too, kokab is not a meteor but a planet, this further endorses brother Edip's view of 11 planets in solar system as per yousaf's dream.
12-4 Recall that Joseph said to his father, "O my father, I saw eleven planets (kokabaa, not Najoom), and the sun, and the moon; I saw them prostrating before me
siki
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It may please be noted that Quran e Majeed has never said that the sky of the earth is adorned with stars.
In na_ zay yan nas sama_ ad dun ya_ bizinatinil kawa_kib
We have adorned the lower sky with Planets. {3706}Peace Mazhar,
Great work! Thank you for sharing it with us. sun
This makes a big difference in how we can look into this subject. In fact, it makes me wonder, is there a relationship between Venus as described in AQ and times that we are to connect with God??
God bless!
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Thanks sisters and brothers for encouragement.
Quran says
Wa huwal lazi ja'ala lakumun nuju_ma litahtadu_ biha_ fi zulumatil barri wal bahr(i), qad fassalnal a_ya_ti liqaumiy ya'lamu_n(a).
Allah is one who has appointed for you stars so that you may guide/find direction yourselves with their help through the dark {unmarked} spaces of land and sea We have made distinct Our Ayat so that people may know/get informed. {697}
wa bin najmi hum yahtadu_n(a).
And with one star they get the direction/destination/guidance.{Ref 1616}While studying Quran e Majeed to find the facts/information/data about the Universe {}and writing them down under the caption ?Quran in the 21st Century?, the above two verses caused me sadistic pleasure since someone inspired that I have caught a contradiction in Quran. At one place it has used plural ?? who give direction and in the second it uses single star ??. But thanks to Allah, it immediately came to mind that should I refuse even if I could not comprehend it.
The beauty of Quran is that it was initially addressing the desert men and was meant for the posterity of humanity in time and space. The statement was comprehensively understandable to the desert men, since more than two stars serve as pointers and one star, pole/north star is the one with which direction is determined.
And today we can more appreciate and enjoy the beauty and precision of Quran when we know that even ?Pole/North Star? is not the one but many in the passage of time. Today Pole Star is Polaris. But in 7500 there will be some other star as Pole Star; and in 15000 there will still be another one and after 9000 years today?s Pole Star Polaris will again be the North/Pole Star.
Quote with thanks from Encarta
?North Star or Polestar, conspicuous star in the northern hemisphere, located closest to the point toward which the axis of the earth is directed, thus roughly marking the location of the north celestial pole. A polestar has been used by navigators throughout recorded history for charting navigation routes and is still used for determining true azimuth and astronomic latitude. The positions of the celestial poles change as the earth's axis moves with the earth's precessional motion (see Ecliptic), and as the north celestial pole assumes different positions relative to the constellations, different stars become the North Star.
Big Dipper, common name applied to a conspicuous constellation in the northern celestial hemisphere, near the North Pole. It was known to the ancient Greeks as the Bear and the Wagon and to the Romans as Ursa Major (the Great Bear) and Septentriones (Seven Plowing Oxen). The seven brightest stars of the constellation form the easily identified outline of a giant dipper. In Europe, the pattern is known as the Plow, Charles's (Charlemagne's) Wain, and the Wagon; among the Hindus, it represents the seven rishis, or holy ancient sages. Of the seven stars constituting the Big Dipper, six are of the second magnitude and one is of the third magnitude. Two of the second-magnitude stars, alpha (a) and beta (?) Ursa Major, which form the outer edge of the bowl, point directly to the North Star, or Polaris, and hence are called the Pointers?Now consider the similarity between the Messengers and Pointers. All of them pointed towards only one source for guidance, the Book of Allah. Messengers, like the North Star kept changing in time and space, but the location of point of guidance remained the same. If a group of people differs in the unmarked areas of earth and waters about the direction, which will come to their guidance? North Pole, none else. Anyone who takes it as a guide to know the right direction will find the path and the one who refuses to take it as a guide shall remain wandering. This suggests Quran Alone if one wishes to reach the destination safe and sound. But this is the dilemma of humanity that while they know vividly that there cannot be two sources of guidance, yet run away from the Book to meet their own desires and choices in life.
For Urdu readers there is a topic on my website ?What is Hidayat? Where can we find it?? ??Quran e Majeed is Al Huda and Hadi {The Guide}? on this link http//haqeeqat.org.pk/book_6/20/slides/1.html -
Peace siki,
Ya ! i agree too, kokab is not a meteor but a planet, this further endorses brother Edip's view of 11 planets in solar system as per yousaf's dream.
12-4 Recall that Joseph said to his father, "O my father, I saw eleven planets (kokabaa, not Najoom), and the sun, and the moon; I saw them prostrating before me
siki
The dream was a metaphor (parents and brothers bowing) see verses 125 and 12100?
12100 And he raised his parents high on the throne (of dignity), and they fell down in prostration, (all) before him. He said "O my father! this is the fulfilment of my vision of old! Allah hath made it come true! He was indeed good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you (all here) out of the desert, (even) after Satan had sown enmity between me and my brothers. Verily my Lord understandeth best the mysteries of all that He planneth to do, for verily He is full of knowledge and wisdom.
1246 "O Joseph!" (he said) "O man of truth! Expound to us (the dream) of SEVEN fat kine whom SEVEN lean ones devour, and of SEVEN green ears of corn and (SEVEN) others withered that I may return to the people, and that they may understand."
Alam taraw kayfa khalaqa Allahu sabAAa samawatin tibaqan
7115 "'See ye not how Allah has created the SEVEN heavens one above another,WajaAAala alqamara feehinna nooran wajaAAala alshshamsa sirajan
7116 "'And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?Says look at the sky and see the SEVEN HEAVENS (metaphoric for plentiful grandeur).
http//www.vbcsanrafael.com/images/84/Sun%20and%20Moon%20at%20North%20Pole.jpg
Peace sun
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12100 And he raised his parents high on the throne (of dignity), and they fell down in prostration, (all) before him. He said "O my father! this is the fulfilment of my vision of old! Allah hath made it come true! He was indeed good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you (all here) out of the desert, (even) after Satan had sown enmity between me and my brothers. Verily my Lord understandeth best the mysteries of all that He planneth to do, for verily He is full of knowledge and wisdom.{Nun de plume}
What has been said is the statement and perception of the translator; not the words of Allah.
My little understanding of Arabic notwithstanding, may I suggest that the translation and perception being drawn from it do not go along with the words used in the verse. 11 brothers were not taken to the throne. Only father and mother were taken up the throne. Two in Arabic does not make plural. For plural there has to be more than two. And statement of Quran is this
Wa rafa'a abawaihi 'alal 'arsyi wa kharru_ lahu_ sujjada_(n),
?And Yousaf took his father and mother upwards to throne; and they all fell into Sajda for Him {Allah mentioned immediately before it by Yousaf in 1299}?Brothers have not been taken to the throne. They have not performed Sajda. Yet kharru has been used, it is plural. If only father and mother would have went into Sajda before Yousaf {peace is upon him} this word could not be used. The people who went to Sajda on the throne are more than two. The third one is Yousalf {Peace is upon him}. Yousaf took/accompanied his father and mother to the throne. When all three reached up on the throne they three fell for Allah into Sajda.
The only difference between the ?Sajda? of everything in Universe and that of human beings is kharru_ and touching their forehead on ground.
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Peace siki,
The dream was a metaphor (parents and brothers bowing) see verses 125 and 12100?
12100 And he raised his parents high on the throne (of dignity), and they fell down in prostration, (all) before him. He said "O my father! this is the fulfilment of my vision of old! Allah hath made it come true! He was indeed good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you (all here) out of the desert, (even) after Satan had sown enmity between me and my brothers. Verily my Lord understandeth best the mysteries of all that He planneth to do, for verily He is full of knowledge and wisdom.
peace NUN
No body is doubting the above understanding for yousaf, but what i am trying to say is, "This points towards another important message from almighty to us humans as well, which is;
Planets are 12.
peace
siki
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What has been said is the statement and perception of the translator; not the words of Allah.
My little understanding of Arabic notwithstanding, may I suggest that the translation and perception being drawn from it do not go along with the words used in the verse. 11 brothers were not taken to the throne. Only father and mother were taken up the throne. Two in Arabic does not make plural. For plural there has to be more than two. And statement of Quran is this
Wa rafa'a abawaihi 'alal 'arsyi wa kharru_ lahu_ sujjada_(n),
And Yousaf took his father and mother upwards to throne; and they all fell into Sajda for Him {Allah mentioned immediately before it by Yousaf in 1299}Brothers have not been taken to the throne. They have not performed Sajda. Yet kharru has been used, it is plural. If only father and mother would have went into Sajda before Yousaf {peace is upon him} this word could not be used. The people who went to Sajda on the throne are more than two. The third one is Yousalf {Peace is upon him}. Yousaf took/accompanied his father and mother to the throne. When all three reached up on the throne they three fell for Allah into Sajda.
The only difference between the Sajda of everything in Universe and that of human beings is kharru_ and touching their forehead on ground.
yes Seems logical to me. Samia ! any opinions ?
siki
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What has been said is the statement and perception of the translator; not the words of Allah.
YES the words of Allah?
124 Behold! Joseph said to his father "O my father! I did see eleven stars and the sun and the moon I saw them prostrate themselves to me!"
125 Said (the father) "My (dear) little son! relate not thy vision to thy brothers, lest they concoct a plot against thee for Satan is to man an avowed enemy!
Why not tell his brothers?
1299 Then when they entered the presence of Joseph, he provided a home for his parents with himself, and said "Enter ye Egypt (all) in safety if it please Allah."
12100 And he raised his parents high on the throne (of dignity), and they fell down in prostration, (all) before him. He said "O my father! this is the fulfilment of my vision of old! Allah hath made it come true! He was indeed good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you (all here) out of the desert, (even) after Satan had sown enmity between me and my brothers. Verily my Lord understandeth best the mysteries of all that He planneth to do, for verily He is full of knowledge and wisdom.
Qur?an says earlier vision in 124 was fulfilled thus THEY above implies ALL!
Peace siki,
No body is doubting the above understanding for yousaf, but what i am trying to say is, "This points towards another important message from almighty to us humans as well, which is;
Planets are 12.
We can?t go by that since there are numerous asteroids, comets, and perhaps billions of other planets in our universe and remember Pluto was relegated to another rock.
Peace
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But who are ALL. On the stage there are three persons including Yousaf {peace is upon him}. Do you mean the whole audience before the throne went into Sajda for him?
For the vision to be fulfilled at least 11 plus 2 would have to prostrate themselves?
124 Behold! Joseph said to his father "O my father! I did see eleven stars and the sun and the moon I saw them prostrate themselves to me!"
More would not cause a contradiction since above would be a subset thus vision fulfilled.
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What has been said is the statement and perception of the translator; not the words of Allah.
My little understanding of Arabic notwithstanding, may I suggest that the translation and perception being drawn from it do not go along with the words used in the verse. 11 brothers were not taken to the throne. Only father and mother were taken up the throne. Two in Arabic does not make plural. For plural there has to be more than two. And statement of Quran is this
Wa rafa'a abawaihi 'alal 'arsyi wa kharru_ lahu_ sujjada_(n),
?And Yousaf took his father and mother upwards to throne; and they all fell into Sajda for Him {Allah mentioned immediately before it by Yousaf in 1299}?A plural verb following dual subject is not uncommon
499 " " " wa'in Taa'ifataani minal mu'mineenaq tataluu..." and if two groups among the believers fight each other"