Really?
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peace OpenMind,
What I mean is that you might do something bad right now (which means god would punish you) but then later you might change and do something good (which means god would reward you).Of course, but I don't think it's like at any one time, you're either bad or good. I think, if you do something good you get +1 and something bad -1, so at the end of our lives however much we're positive/negative is the closer/further away we are from God and thus the more heaven/hell we receive.
Peace
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Who says God is a "system?"
Doesn't have to be, God is the unseen. Confusing the creation with the creator is no good.
See 2164, 1022, 1432, 1679 - All of these indicate God is very close to nature.
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Peace M,
So that's all it takes eh? All someone has to do to have "God" on their side is really really... really... believe with all their might... that they are "right" so that God is on their side and then they "tapped into the divine ressource"?!
Yeah. That's what belief is, afterall. And with belief comes conviction which often leads to courage, bravery, etc. Is it really that far-fetched?? Also, please offer your own interpretation of the ayah in question.
I can understand the point of psychosis that would lead a person into thinking nothing is impossible... but then again... this type of megalomaniacal behaviour seems to be all the fashion in today's brand of pseudo spirituality.
Cool.
peace
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Yeah. That's what belief is, afterall. And with belief comes conviction which often leads to courage, bravery, etc. Is it really that far-fetched?? Also, please offer your own interpretation of the ayah in question.
Cool.Belief in what? I don't question what you are saying here in as an psychological effect. What I question is your formula to "tap" into "divine source" as you call it. I was enjoying your ideas of courage and 10,000 men etc. etc.. as far as the Ayah in question go.. But then you injected a formula that is in line with the character models of Bush n Bin Laden and then you complete your thought by saying megalomaniacal behaviour is "cool".
You sound more like you believe in man.. not God.
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Of course, but I don't think it's like at any one time, you're either bad or good. I think, if you do something good you get +1 and something bad -1, so at the end of our lives however much we're positive/negative is the closer/further away we are from God and thus the more heaven/hell we receive.
Peace
peace
Well, I think it can be like that. We have good and bad things programed into us, when we act upon them is only a matter of time. I don't know how god works, though.
I don't think god is adding up our points, I think we experience heaven and hell in this world. Bad belief/actions have bad consequences for us and good things have good consequences.I'm really confused about what is meant by "god" in the quran.
The way I see it, It seems like god is a force/law that is neutral (neither good nor bad). Because anyone with belief in himself can make a large army look small. It doesn't matter what he's intentions are.
On the other hand we have those attributes that are strictly "good."Does "allah" have multiple meanings?
peace M,
You sound more like you believe in man.. not God.
they might actually be the same thing.
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peace
Well, I think it can be like that. We have good and bad things programed into us, when we act upon them is only a matter of time. I don't know how god works, though.
I don't think god is adding up our points, I think we experience heaven and hell in this world. Bad belief/actions have bad consequences for us and good things have good consequences.I agree completely, but I don't think experiencing heaven/hell in this world and our "points" being added up, so to speak, are mutually exclusive. I agree with both
Peace
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Salam,
You know Lobster, whether we agree or not does not matter much to me. To always agree isn't a highlight in life. But I just want to let you know that I truely appreciate your honesty. Thank you!
they might actually be the same thing.
This is what I'm trying to convey. Not that I believe they are the same, but the type of thought process that Tay presents points towards this type of belief system. And that system is dangerous.
peace...
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Salam,
You know Lobster, whether we agree or not does not matter much to me. To always agree isn't a highlight in life. But I just want to let you know that I truely appreciate your honesty. Thank you!
This is what I'm trying to convey. Not that I believe they are the same, but the type of thought process that Tay presents points towards this type of belief system. And that system is dangerous.peace...
Thank you! I try not to be too honest though. Actually, I don't really mind lying to people, as long as I'm not lying to myself. Sometimes I find that just to create a good argument I'm going against what I think, and I really don't like that.
Why is that system dangerous? Because we might become too arrogant?
I don't think man and god are the same thing, but god or part of god is inside us.
peace -
I agree completely, but I don't think experiencing heaven/hell in this world and our "points" being added up, so to speak, are mutually exclusive. I agree with both
Peace
Well....to me it doesn't make sense if whether you go to hell and heaven is decided by one point. 51/49 "good bias" doesn't make you truly good, does it?
But we really have no proof of what'll happen when we die. The only people who know are the ones who're dead. We can maybe guess what'll happen based on what we know already, but we don't know a lot about this life either. -
Well....to me it doesn't make sense if whether you go to hell and heaven is decided by one point. 51/49 "good bias" doesn't make you truly good, does it?
But we really have no proof of what'll happen when we die. The only people who know are the ones who're dead. We can maybe guess what'll happen based on what we know already, but we don't know a lot about this life either.Of course we don't truly know.
That's what I'm saying, I don't think it's two distinct places, because that seems unjust. And God repeatedly says no one will suffer the least injustice. The more good you do, the more you purify yourself in this life, the closer you are to God in this life and the same amount in the next. And same for the other way around. That is my opinion.
I don't understand what you mean by "Well....to me it doesn't make sense if whether you go to hell and heaven is decided by one point" or your 5149 reference.
Peace
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Peace M,
I'm not sure where I went wrong in expressing, but here it is in a nutshell...
Belief brings about conviction.
Wholehearted belief brings about courage, bravery, fearlessness, etc.
Wholehearted belief is attained through refinement/attunement (aka salat).That's it.
If that sounds like bush, or bin laden, or man-worship, or whatever, then so be it.
As for megalomania being cool, well, that's not what I quoted at all. I quoted you saying
I can understand the point of psychosis that would lead a person into thinking nothing is impossible... but then again... this type of megalomaniacal behaviour seems to be all the fashion in today's brand of pseudo spirituality.
...and thought it was cool.
Cool?Peace,
Tay -
Salam,
Why is that system dangerous? Because we might become too arrogant?
Not become too arrogant, it is too arrogant.
Wholehearted belief is attained through refinement/attunement (aka salat).
Not always Tay. There are folks who wholeheartedly believe in things even though do not perform any form of salat. It doesn't make them necessarily attuned to the Divine. But in the context of what was said before, what you said now makes much more sense.
When you believe wholeheartedly, and you are sure that what you're doing is the right thing, then you have tapped into the divine resource - and nothing seems impossible.
Many people are "sure" what they are doing is right, but it doesn't necessarily mean they, to use your words, "tapped into the divine resource".
peace
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Peace M,
Not always Tay. There are folks who wholeheartedly believe in things even though do not perform any form of salat. It doesn't make them necessarily attuned to the Divine. But in the context of what was said before, what you said now makes much more sense.
I agree with the first part, and I'm glad I was able to get my point across.
Many people are "sure" what they are doing is right, but it doesn't necessarily mean they, to use your words, "tapped into the divine resource".
I agree. That's why salat is key. It is a fundamental check-point, I believe. The divine resource confirms itself through salat.
Peace,
Tay -
I don't understand what you mean by "Well....to me it doesn't make sense if whether you go to hell and heaven is decided by one point" or your 5149 reference.
peace OM,
I wasn't referring to 5149, I was referring to the democratic way of deciding things. If out of 100 deeds, 51 are bad, you go to hell? Or if 51 are good, you go to heaven? That's a very mechanical way of deciding and the way us humans are (complicated), it wouldn't work.I really don't know what life is all about....I can't wait to die so I can find out.
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peace OM,
) I wasn't referring to 5149, I was referring to the democratic way of deciding things. If out of 100 deeds, 51 are bad, you go to hell? Or if 51 are good, you go to heaven? That's a very mechanical way of deciding and the way us humans are (complicated), it wouldn't work.I really don't know what life is all about....I can't wait to die so I can find out.
Peace Lobster
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. In my opinion, I don't think there are two distinct places like heaven and hell. There are infinite "levels" of heaven/hell is what I'm trying to get across (in my understanding of the quran). The quran implies this many times as well. If it were just two separate places, I'd agree with you.
I'm not saying that if people are +1 or +10,000, they go to the same place, that doesn't seem just. I'm saying for people who are +1, they get +1 "heaven." For people who are +10,000, they get +10,000 "heaven," because they did more good deeds (+10,000), so they became more purified, they became closer to God and that +10,000 closer to God-ness is their heaven. But for the +1 person, he/she still gets "heaven," only +1 of it.
Sorry to ramble, I hope I'm making sense.
Peace
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Peace Lobster
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. In my opinion, I don't think there are two distinct places like heaven and hell. There are infinite "levels" of heaven/hell is what I'm trying to get across (in my understanding of the quran). The quran implies this many times as well. If it were just two separate places, I'd agree with you.
I'm not saying that if people are +1 or +10,000, they go to the same place, that doesn't seem just. I'm saying for people who are +1, they get +1 "heaven." For people who are +10,000, they get +10,000 "heaven," because they did more good deeds (+10,000), so they became more purified, they became closer to God and that +10,000 closer to God-ness is their heaven. But for the +1 person, he/she still gets "heaven," only +1 of it.
Sorry to ramble, I hope I'm making sense.
Peace
This thought is also in the Sunni system, just for reference. A brief study of ahadeeth pertaining to the afterlife show varying degrees of good deeds, numerically.