Why?
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Salam,
If we base it on that, my only way of thinking where he went wrong on what we were given was due to the fact that only that one brother spoke.
So for you it's soley based on the fact that one remained silent (even though he was right there and present) , it's still David's fault. thanks for sharing that's interesting. it's nice too that you're being responsible enough to say that it is your interpretation..
Well, as I said earlier.. more input is needed but.. if someone doesn't use their their factualties then.. their loss...
anyway.. back to this
Emotions grant much power, and most people are not good with power.
I can see how you mean "emotions grant much power".. but what you say about "most" people... is false... where I live... most people drive cars.. folks who drive cars are wielding alot of power yet, somehow.. the majority ("most" tend to keep it well under control... so would you say that it is your opinion that "most people are not good with power?" how can you account for saying that?
Thanks
peace -
Peace
Salam,
So for you it's soley based on the fact that one remained silent (even though he was right there and present) , it's still David's fault. thanks for sharing that's interesting. it's nice too that you're being responsible enough to say that it is your interpretation..
Well, as I said earlier.. more input is needed but.. if someone doesn't use their their factualties then.. their loss...
anyway.. back to this
I can see how you mean "emotions grant much power".. but what you say about "most" people... is false... where I live... most people drive cars.. folks who drive cars are wielding alot of power yet, somehow.. the majority ("most" tend to keep it well under control... so would you say that it is your opinion that "most people are not good with power?" how can you account for saying that?
Thanks
peaceWhat exactly is Davids fault? Is it that he stated "they are very few" or the judgement he made regrading that specific party? I take the later as it makes more sense than a statement. Also, it wasn't addressed that his statement was his error. Again, which for me makes more sense on his judgement between the two brothers.
As for the car statement, I can attest that most people that I have been in cars with has been wreckless more than once, its just that they never got into accidents. For example, say you speed. If you go driving at night, you speed over the speed limit, but you dont get into car crashes. That is one example. Also, road rage is another. Just because there are no accidents it doesnt mean that people can control. or better try to do their best. I have friends that drive expensive cars and that drive non expensive cars, but yet, a lot of them still go over what they are supposed to be doing. If the cop was there or even cares, based on the law, they should be getting tickets. Matter of fact, a lot of my friends have tickets that they still need to pay off. Not that there is some statistic out there, but from my personal experience in life, most people like to go BEYOND the limit. Yet, when something is done to them beyond the limit, they complain.
Peace
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Salam,
What exactly is Davids fault? Is it that he stated "they are very few" or the judgement he made regrading that specific party? I take the later as it makes more sense than a statement. Also, it wasn't addressed that his statement was his error. Again, which for me makes more sense on his judgement between the two brothers.
I take the former. No worries. I think it's fine that two people don't agree on such an issue, as long as it's done with responsibility. I believe it is even more beautiful as you say, "Also, it wasn't addressed that his statement was his error." Exactly, nothing was actually addressed in specific.. In this instant, without outside sources, all we have to use to come to an understanding are the words that are transmitted within the story itself, possibly, very much like the same position that David was was in. Praise Allah! pr
As for the car statement, I can attest that most people that I have been in cars with has been wreckless more than once, its just that they never got into accidents. For example, say you speed. If you go driving at night, you speed over the speed limit, but you dont get into car crashes. That is one example. Also, road rage is another. Just because there are no accidents it doesnt mean that people can control. or better try to do their best. I have friends that drive expensive cars and that drive non expensive cars, but yet, a lot of them still go over what they are supposed to be doing. If the cop was there or even cares, based on the law, they should be getting tickets. Matter of fact, a lot of my friends have tickets that they still need to pay off. Not that there is some statistic out there, but from my personal experience in life, most people like to go BEYOND the limit. Yet, when something is done to them beyond the limit, they complain.
"Attest" is akin to witness. So you are saying that you are a witness to your own saying that "...most people are not good with power." So by you saying ... "most people are not good with power." isn't that just your own opinion? Or are you declaring you saying "...most people are not good with power." as truth?
Peace
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Peace
Salam,
I take the former. No worries. I think it's fine that two people don't agree on such an issue, as long as it's done with responsibility. I believe it is even more beautiful as you say, "Also, it wasn't addressed that his statement was his error." Exactly, nothing was actually addressed in specific.. In this instant, without outside sources, all we have to use to come to an understanding are the words that are transmitted within the story itself, possibly, very much like the same position that David was was in. Praise Allah! pr"Attest" is akin to witness. So you are saying that you are a witness to your own saying that "...most people are not good with power." So by you saying ... "most people are not good with power." isn't that just your own opinion? Or are you declaring you saying "...most people are not good with power." as truth?
Peace
Agree to disagree is ok with me. I don't find the statement itself important compared to the whole.
To say that "most" would definitely be by my own opinion. If I were to make it a fact, then one would need statistical information, no? Also, by stating the opposite, that most people are good or responsible with power, would also need statistical information. The point though was that I see it in the Quran as a statement that confirms it. Without the Quran, I'd still hold that opinion, but I only brought it up for the fact that it was in it. If you don't, again like said previously, we can agree to disagree on the issue, theres nothing wrong with differ opinions. Enjoying the discussion
Peace
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Salam,
Peace
Agree to disagree is ok with me. I don't find the statement itself important compared to the whole.
To say that "most" would definitely be by my own opinion. If I were to make it a fact, then one would need statistical information, no? Also, by stating the opposite, that most people are good or responsible with power, would also need statistical information. The point though was that I see it in the Quran as a statement that confirms it. Without the Quran, I'd still hold that opinion, but I only brought it up for the fact that it was in it. If you don't, again like said previously, we can agree to disagree on the issue, theres nothing wrong with differ opinions. Enjoying the discussion
Peace
I agree! Somehow even within the disagreement, I see many agreements between us. You mentioned that David based his decision on his own opinion yet he didn't hear the other side. We often base decisions on opinion. Once again, I think this brings us back to the point of the thread. These opinions are at times based, as it's already been discussed, on programming that the individual has. Without additional input, can we put blame on an individual for coming to a certain opinion?
Another way of looking at it is, can we blame a person who has never heard God's Message about not knowing about it? Without additional input, that person can hardly be blamed. Even for a person who's God's Message has arrived, such as David, can we really blame him for making a decision on limited input? But for a person who has knowledge of God's Message, humility is key.
I've noticed this in what I read here from others and with myself how commonly generalizing issues are easily done. "People this, them that, they are those etc." I pray that I can be more responsible and practice more humility in my own words and actions as well as I pray for others the same.
Yet, generalization is also a key into coming to certain understandings. There is the pro and cons of profiling. There are pro and cons of generalization... well, in general. But, there is a by-product of being off balance with these forms of opinion. A person may judge another simply because of the headscarf they were, others might be dismissed and outcasted in society because of they somehow don't fit into the socialized box (smoking, lack of exercise, junk food and the such). These aspects become more important when I see that at the time being, our world is very media based. We are constantly bombarded by images and sounds etc.. Would you agree that a byproduct of these types of attacks on the senses is causing an off balance of reliance on the senses rather than the Soul?
Therefore, certain things are coined "proper" that please these senses rather than things that don't. al-Ghazali, many years ago, came to an understanding that our senses do not always tell us the truth. http//www.ghazali.org/ . So when we are talking about subconcious, nafs etc. wouldn't it be more "proper" to be responsible and more complete in our understanding of these issues? Is it the responsibility of those who wish to claim to attain Spiritual Knowledge (oxymoron?!) to understand some of these basic concepts and act accordingly?
So taking in the input I have gotten on this thread, and then I read the following
Why is it that when a person decides to do something, like stop smoking, or beginning a diet or exercise, or any type of change in behavior, does it follow that the person continues to follow the same pattern of behavior most times?
It would seem because the person has not actually decided to that thing. It's actually pretty simple. The why behind it may lay within the subject of the subconcious, but these subjects aught to be explored in a more complete sense to come to better understanding.
Do we properly understand the subconcious(nafs) part of being as we should?
"We" is too general to assertain a truthful answer. I'm sure some do, and some don't. Yet, if I was to take the same words and change "we" into "I" as in as within the original question posed
Do I properly understand the=subconcious(nafs) part of being as we should?
I would have to say, from the input (or lack thereof), no, Bro Kyle appears to lack a more complete understanding of the subject.
Now back to David. Since, I only have a certain amount of content to come to an understanding, can I be blamed on my decision at this point?
Enjoying the discussion
Me too.
peace.
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Peace be upon you Lobster,
would you say that what we imagine is what we experience?
Your faculty of imagination and your faculty of verbal thought are two tools with which you program your subconcious(nafs). If you sit back and watch your person, you will realize that we spend much of our time in our imagination. We play all things out in our heads ....how we would react if this happenned and that happenned...and the images and thoughts that you play over and over again shape your behavior.
It is our RESPONSES to lifes events that we are working on, and you will find that your responses come AUTOMATICALLY in most cases, and this AUTOMATIC system can and needs to be reprogrammed (purified).
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Peace be upon you M Mehdi,
To me this sounds like the personal litany of Kyle. Yet, the way he words it is more than that. He says, "So our job is to... " Our? What would make Kyle come to such conclusions.. what programming has led him to these types of ideas that it's not only "his" job.. but all of the sudden... "ours"
Because truth is universal...it is my job to drink plenty of water so my body can work properly, it is also your job to drink plenty of water. Perhaps you take that as me telling you what to do, no, I am only pointing to that which is VERIFYABLE in the book of life, it is up to you to follow it or not, my job is only to spread that which is beneficial and verifyable (if you do the work).
It is asinine (lost in the mind) to have go through such a twisted road to come to the simple conclusion that yes... you, me, we are conciousness itself! and of course each of us are responsible for our own nafs but that does not make the subconcious and "you" APART.
The FACT that "you" can shape and mold the Nafs(subconcious/spirit) shows us that it is not the same thing we call "I". I dont care what words you want to use for these parts, just realize there is a duality at work. All things were created in pairs. Realize that conciousness is one part and subconcious is the other part and it is the job of the conscious to put the right behavior in the subconcious. The concious is the part that WILLS, the subconcious is the part that carries out the programs placed in it. Its like a farmer dropping seeds and the soil making it grow through sun and water.
In conclusion, the subconcious is as much a part of "you" as your physical body. The physical body is a TOOL used by the "I" to have wordly experience, bu the physical body and conciousness are not the same thing. If you lose your arms and legs to you stop being "you"? There is a part of you that has and always will remain the same, that same conciousness that was "you" when you were 1 month old, 5 years old, 20 years old, and today, even though your physical body has changed completely since then...so who are "you"? You are consciousness, and conciousness has vehicles that it uses, that SERVE it. Your thoughts , imagination, physical body, etc. All of these vehicles are part of the subconcious realm and can all be programmed. Thats why we can lift weights and train our muscles to grao, or learn how to play a song on the piano after REPTITION, and it is the same with our MIND which is a TOOL of the conciousness.I'll stop here so we can digest this part for a moment and talk it through.
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Your faculty of imagination and your faculty of verbal thought are two tools with which you program your subconcious(nafs). If you sit back and watch your person, you will realize that we spend much of our time in our imagination. We play all things out in our heads ....how we would react if this happenned and that happenned...and the images and thoughts that you play over and over again shape your behavior.
It is our RESPONSES to lifes events that we are working on, and you will find that your responses come AUTOMATICALLY in most cases, and this AUTOMATIC system can and needs to be reprogrammed (purified).
bravo There will always remain that negative aspect of our reflexes. The reflectance to process thoughts comes from the nourishments it receives and the strengths of internal/external combustion (the aura). -
Salam,
Because truth is universal...it is my job to drink plenty of water so my body can work properly, it is also your job to drink plenty of water. Perhaps you take that as me telling you what to do, no, I am only pointing to that which is VERIFYABLE in the book of life, it is up to you to follow it or not, my job is only to spread that which is beneficial and verifyable (if you do the work).
Kyle, do you consider yourself a messenger of God?
I understand the programming that has led you to say such a thing though. There's no argument about such things about water being "good" for you but at the same time smoking doesn't have to be bad for you, as an example. And also many things which we deem in our society today to be good can actually have opposite effects etc. I pray you can be more full rounded while doing your "job."
The FACT that "you" can shape and mold the Nafs(subconcious/spirit) shows us that it is not the same thing we call "I". I dont care what words you want to use for these parts, just realize there is a duality at work. All things were created in pairs. Realize that conciousness is one part and subconcious is the other part and it is the job of the conscious to put the right behavior in the subconcious. The concious is the part that WILLS, the subconcious is the part that carries out the programs placed in it. Its like a farmer dropping seeds and the soil making it grow through sun and water.
In conclusion, the subconcious is as much a part of "you" as your physical body. The physical body is a TOOL used by the "I" to have wordly experience, bu the physical body and conciousness are not the same thing. If you lose your arms and legs to you stop being "you"? There is a part of you that has and always will remain the same, that same conciousness that was "you" when you were 1 month old, 5 years old, 20 years old, and today, even though your physical body has changed completely since then...so who are "you"? You are consciousness, and conciousness has vehicles that it uses, that SERVE it. Your thoughts , imagination, physical body, etc. All of these vehicles are part of the subconcious realm and can all be programmed. Thats why we can lift weights and train our muscles to grao, or learn how to play a song on the piano after REPTITION, and it is the same with our MIND which is a TOOL of the conciousness.
I'll stop here so we can digest this part for a moment and talk it through.Thanks for your response. I did take your suggestion and let it "digest" for moment before replying. And I find that you did not in provide a good case as to how the two are seperate.
The "fact" (as you say) that "you" can shape and mold the nafs would point more towards that they are a part of "you." You also mention something about loosing arms and legs etc. This is not a good analogy that you use. Lets instead use an analogy (since you opened the door) that actually concerns the concious, the sub-concious, and behavoir since this is part of what I you appear to be talking about.
As you seem to assert in one portion of your thought that the sub-concious creates certain behaviour patterns that are executed through the conscious mind. But lets say that you fall and become unconcious what good or bad does your sub-concious do in the sense of your behaviour patterns? How would you continue to smoke, eat junk food etc. etc.. ?
You do not make a good case as to how the concious mind and sub-concious are apart. If anything all that you said above shows more clearly how they are part of one. At the same time, it appears that you are taking a very long and unnecessary road to coming to very simple conclusions. Such as
There is a part of you that has and always will remain the same, that same conciousness that was "you" when you were 1 month old, 5 years old, 20 years old, and today, even though your physical body has changed completely since then...so who are "you"? You are consciousness, and conciousness has vehicles that it uses, that SERVE it. Your thoughts , imagination, physical body, etc. All of these vehicles are part of the subconcious realm and can all be programmed. Thats why we can lift weights and train our muscles to grao, or learn how to play a song on the piano after REPTITION, and it is the same with our MIND which is a TOOL of the conciousness.
Ok sure.. but so what's your point? I agree that I, you, we.. are conciousness (or at least a part thereof). How does this show the sub-concious to be seperate?
Frankly, it appears that you are taking certain thoughts and studies and repeating them without actually being able to articulate your own resolve. By saying things such as
Because truth is universal...
Realize that conciousness is one part and subconcious is the other part and it is the job of the conscious to put the right behavior in the subconcious.You seem to just want the reader to agree with you.. well.. just "because" you say so. This behaviour of yours is the same as a while ago when I asked you to give more detail about your experience with the drumming and you were not able to do so. Alas, the experience is key.. and may lead to more if we can learn to program that "behaviour" pattern as you yourself are asserting.
Sensing a thing is a good start though, as you mentioned
The physical body is a TOOL used by the "I" to have wordly experience, bu the physical body and conciousness are not the same thing.
Yet, the actions of our physical bodies leave an imprint on the Soul. The behaviours that the bodies causes does effect the Soul. The two are working in conjuction together and at this point are infused and not "yet" apart, Kyle. But I believe you're onto a good thing here. We can start to see the seperation of the two, but must understand that at this point, here and now, they work together and are both part of the "I".
Yes, and even so when we can practice different techniques to seperate the two for a time being, we always come back to the union of the two in this dunya.
Kyle, practicality can also be a key.
Peace be on you, bro.
-muhammad
ps. Good to see you still around...
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Peace be upon you,
Kyle, do you consider yourself a messenger of God?
Only if what I stated can be proven. But dont take that to mean some superhero to be worshipped as partner to the God. Only a normal person like you. Do you NOT consider yourself a messenger when you deliver truth? You are. Its time we took responsibility for what we say and not shift this responsibility to some Jewish superheroes of the unverifyable past.
I understand the programming that has led you to say such a thing though. There's no argument about such things about water being "good" for you
Thats correct because life is built on LAWS.
but at the same time smoking doesn't have to be bad for you, as an example.
WHat do you mean by "doesnt have to be"? Smoke is not meant for the lungs.
And also many things which we deem in our society today to be good can actually have opposite effects etc. I pray you can be more full rounded while doing your "job."
Truth is built on relationships, how things relate to each other, that is how LAW is used. Things must be weighed/measured. We do not make blanket statements but look at each situation and weigh it. We are responsible for our faculties.
Thanks for your response. I did take your suggestion and let it "digest" for moment before replying. And I find that you did not in provide a good case as to how the two are seperate.
The "fact" (as you say) that "you" can shape and mold the nafs would point more towards that they are a part of "you." You also mention something about loosing arms and legs etc. This is not a good analogy that you use.
Its an excellent analogy because the physical body is a vehicle just like your thoughts and images. Look at your wording above, it is screaming to you that they are seperate, actually an indivisible duality. The point I want you to focus on is what part to you identify with as the "I"?
Lets instead use an analogy (since you opened the door) that actually concerns the concious, the sub-concious, and behavoir since this is part of what I you appear to be talking about.
As you seem to assert in one portion of your thought that the sub-concious creates certain behaviour patterns that are executed through the conscious mind.
Incorrect. There is no "concious mind", YOU are conciousness Itself, and the Spirit(subconcious) is your vehicle that you are given so that you can purify it and build the house of God so God can come into the world through your vehicle. Conciousness WILLS, but the subcocious/spirit CARRIES OUT what is willed. But the spirit is not always receptive, so although we may "plant seeds in the garden, the soil is not always fertile, it is not always the right season".
But lets say that you fall and become unconcious what good or bad does your sub-concious do in the sense of your behaviour patterns? How would you continue to smoke, eat junk food etc. etc.. ?
What do you do when you dream? Sleep is the cousin of death. "is that air your breathing Neo"?
You do not make a good case as to how the concious mind and sub-concious are apart. If anything all that you said above shows more clearly how they are part of one. At the same time, it appears that you are taking a very long and unnecessary road to coming to very simple conclusions.
(2137) The human/mankind was created from hurry/haste/speed, I will show you My signs/evidences , so do not hurry/hasten.
Take your time, I assure you it is verifyable. Is THAT which percieves the same as that which is percieved?
Ok sure.. but so what's your point? I agree that I, you, we.. are conciousness (or at least a part thereof). How does this show the sub-concious to be seperate?
If you ARE consiousness, how can you be that which is percieved by the conciousness? Are you the chair that you are sitting on? The subconcious is your vehicle, just like your body, but it is not the "I" within, it is not your identity. However the probem mankind faces is that they are conditioned from birth to identify with the emotions and physical body, thereby forgeting who they really are. Know Thyself.
Frankly, it appears that you are taking certain thoughts and studies and repeating them without actually being able to articulate your own resolve.
If you have taken the time to reflect and look at these things in your own experience and you disagree, then thats fine, peace to you just the same.
You seem to just want the reader to agree with you.. well.. just "because" you say so.
Never that, I just want the reader to see my passion and take the TIME to check this out and not reach into thier preconcieved ideas bag (subconcious) and grab thier programmed responses without really considering it.
This behaviour of yours is the same as a while ago when I asked you to give more detail about your experience with the drumming and you were not able to do so. Alas, the experience is key.. and may lead to more if we can learn to program that "behaviour" pattern as you yourself are asserting.
Probaly didnt have much experience at the time to provide that for you, whats wrong with that? SHould I make something up for you? This topic however is not drumming.
Yet, the actions of our physical bodies leave an imprint on the Soul. The behaviours that the bodies causes does effect the Soul. The two are working in conjuction together and at this point are infused and not "yet" apart, Kyle.
It is becoming more and more clear that you have not pondered what I am saying because you keep saying things I never said and are incorrect to what I am speaking on. The physical body IS part of the Spirit(subconcious realm), or do you beat your own heart and change that almond into flesh and blood, etc. Just like all of the Nafs, it can be programmed, do you agree that you can program your body?
But I believe you're onto a good thing here. We can start to see the seperation of the two
Yes, if we are seeing the seperation of the TWO, then that is a good thing.
but must understand that at this point, here and now, they work together and are both part of the "I".
God created all things in pairs, yes, it is an indivisible duality, but the focus here is WHICH PART OF THE TWO do you identify with. hey are both part of "being", but one cannot serve two masters, which of the two holds the throne? Which one is yang and which is yin?
Yes, and even so when we can practice different techniques to seperate the two for a time being, we always come back to the union of the two in this dunya.
Yes, we always come back to the ONE, but that is by making the TWO to work properly together. Are the slave and the master the same?
Kyle, practicality can also be a key.
Peace be on you, bro.
-muhammad
ps. Good to see you still around...
Good to "hajj" with you again and peace be upon you as well. ;D
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Peace brother Kyle,
It is good to see you on the forum.
Good to "hajj" with you again and peace be upon you as well. ;D
The term "hajj" doesn't mean debate. my understanding of this term has improved. I can now see that "hajj" actually means "feast". You can empirically verify this. Try to invite all people to a debate or put a sign outside your house saying "come in for a debate". I doubt many people will come. On the other hand, invite people to a feast or put a sign outside your house saying "come in for a free feast". You will get many people. This is reality and it matches with the signs of the great reading. Naturally, animal sacrifice is one of the central components of the feast/"hajj".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother Kyle,
It is good to see you on the forum.
The term "hajj" doesn't mean debate. my understanding of this term has improved. I can now see that "hajj" actually means "feast". You can empirically verify this. Try to invite all people to a debate or put a sign outside your house saying "come in for a debate". I doubt many people will come. On the other hand, invite people to a feast or put a sign outside your house saying "come in for a free feast". You will get many people. This is reality and it matches with the signs of the great reading. Naturally, animal sacrifice is one of the central components of the feast/"hajj".
Peace,
Ayman
Could a debate be another component of the feast?
Peace
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Peace brother Kyle,
. I can now see that "hajj" actually means "feast". You can empirically verify this. Try to invite all people to a debate or put a sign outside your house saying "come in for a debate". I doubt many people will come. On the other hand, invite people to a feast or put a sign outside your house saying "come in for a free feast". You will get many people. This is reality and it matches with the signs of the great reading. Naturally, animal sacrifice is one of the central components of the feast/"hajj".
Peace,
Ayman
brickwall brickwall brickwall
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Salam Kyle,
Probaly didnt have much experience at the time to provide that for you, whats wrong with that? SHould I make something up for you? This topic however is not drumming.
Exactly my point. If you wish to live in a world of duality that is your choice.
peace.
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Peace be upon you Ayman,
Glad to see you still here brother. DO you have an article on "hajj" that I can read? I havent been through the entire forum just yet.
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Peace be upon you Lobster,
what is the meaning of "eternity?" as in eternal life?
it doesn't mean "a very long time..." does it?Eternal life I would take to be your essence, the core of your being which always has been and always will be.
Why do you ask?
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Greetings idolfree1,
It's great to see you posting again. It's been 'dry' around here without your thought provoking insights. And, as for this topic, I can certainly see where you're coming from and I agree with what you're saying wholeheartedly.
And...leoxyz,
Greetings.
brickwall brickwall brickwall
If all this kind of talk troubles you so much, why are spending SO much time with us here? Looks like you've been online with us us about 24/7 since you became a member! Take a rest. Hang out with some like-minded people for a while. You'll feel much more relaxed.
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Peace be upon you Lobster,
Eternal life I would take to be your essence, the core of your being which always has been and always will be.
Why do you ask?
peace
so even when we die, we will be conscious?
and why does this essence have to experience physical life, why go through this cycle (or cycles)?