Focal Point
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Can we also take it in reverse order? Words made from this Root perhaps appear eight times and at all those places the reflection is perhaps from higher to lower place.
Out of all these eight locations in the Quran ,none of this root derivative is followed by any place except the above mentioned verse.
In this verse "Ihbitoo" is followed by a "place " misran" (city).It will mean as "Enter" as clarified in the dictionaries of the classical Arabic.
Another dictionary.
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No doubt the word "misr" does mean boundry or limit or partition.
In the verse 1087 word used is "bi-misra".It is being used as "diptote" while example qouted above is that of "triptote"i.e indefinite noun.Why is this so?Maybe it is (bi misrin) not (bi misra)? This is pure grammar.
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(1087)
I also have a "mushaf" and I can see this. What I am saying is if you remove the grammar markers or case endings, you can read the verse/word in either way
(1087)
The word "misr" is written with a nunnation ( ) when it has to appear on an alif. We cannot rule out, therefore, that it is also nunnated here
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I also have a "mushaf" and I can see this. What I am saying is if you remove the grammar markers or case endings, you can read the verse/word in either way
(1087)
The word "misr" is written with a nunnation ( ) when it has to appear on an alif. We cannot rule out, therefore, that it is also nunnated here
That is why vowelling has been put.
It is "bimisra" = diptote .
not a triptote.So triptote examples are not applicable here . -
Greetings,
Though this thread has been inactive for quite a while, but I recently had some discussions with some people and see that a theory about the "qibla" or "focal point" is quite interesting.
Let's consider this analysis/theory about the "qibla"/focal point
NOTE This is just a THEORY. The following is a redition of the verses explaining this theory. Please help correct/check it and show your views.
NOTE This is probably about a nation that has passed away as in 2134, 2141, so please don't take too much attention on it more than believing in God and doing good.*Please note that the believers referred to here are those who are with the prophet at that time, and you mostly refers to the prophet.
-Prior to 240 God is re-telling the stories that the people of the scripture know.
-God adresses the Children of Israel directly from 240 onwards, telling them to realize and accept this new revelation that God has sent down, authenticating what they already have, clarifying what they mixed with falsehood, etc... Read on...
-In 2114, God shows that the people of the scripture boycott God's temple, not allow God's name to be mentioned in the temples... Not allowing people to do so, so in 2115 God shows that God is everywhere, no need to worry about their disallowance at that time maybe deal with it later.
-2125 shows that God entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael to purify the temple for those who visit a gathering place for those who want to humbly accept and follow God's bonds/laws that were revealed and remember/praise/discuss about God there. The people of the scripture came to disallow this as in 2114. (Yes, it's evident that most probably this is at the rock in Jerusalem see Layth's Where was Muhammad article at http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/moh.htm)
-The prophet and believers now probably realize that the original gathering place/temple set by God is Abraham's temple. So the prophet and the belivers are eager to go and gather there to remember, praise God, study the revelations there, etc.
-Since it is disallowed to gather there, a debate between God's Messenger (Muhammad) and the people of the scripture starts from 2135, God tells the Messenger what to tell them (2136 onwards...)
-*** Now, in 2142 shows that some people in this ongoing debate came to ask what made the believers change their ***gathering place/qibla from what they were on. That is, why the believers come to gather here at this temple which the people of the scripture forbade? The reason is shown from the context that they come here because they want to go to re-use the temple where God entrusted Abraham to set up.
-In 2143 - it shows that the reason that God entrusted Abraham to make such a temple/place/gathering point was to distinguish who really follows God's messenger(s) from those who will turn on their heels. It's like who's willing to take action do the belief as practical reality. This is also probably the reason why God reavealed Abraham's temple story/details to them. It was a great thing for the believers or those who came to accept belief to clearly identify themselves - step out to cross the line. God was not to waste their belief God gave them a chance to do better by taking action.
-In 2144, (God sees the eagerness of the prophet to use this original gathering place as revealed) God decrees onto the believers to set themselves to this original place as the gathering place/point to conquer it back from the oppressors who disallowed to use it even the believers with the prophet are to be chased out (go out”. They know about it but they hide the truth disallow gathering there.
-2145 Shows none of the groups would gather together. The people of the scripture know that this is Abraham's (physical) temple/sanctuary yet they disallow using it for the causes as in 2125.
-2148 Shows that whatever the group, it's besst to remember to maintain doing good.
-2149 - 150 tells the prophet and the believers there to take this decree to gather at Abaraham's temple strongly. And, since the people of the scripture don't gather there so they won't come to debate overthere except those who are wicked as in 2114 who want to disallow its use don't fear them but fear God instead so God can guide & bless the believers (this is probably the God will not waste your belief in 2143)
-2151-153 Re assures the believers of God's blessing upon them by revealing this revelation to them so be grateful to God and so hold on to God's bond/salat patiently.
-Upto now, since the believers show their standing point clearly, confrontation would happen, so 2154-157 shows about handling these situations.
Conclusion
According to this theory, qibla or Focal Point means gathering point/place. Try it with 1087 also.
This theory is also based on the theories/understandings that
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The masjid al haram is at the dome of the rock in Jerusalem. See http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/moh.htm
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Salat means bond (mostly used as upholding God's commandments). See http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm and http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
May God Guide.
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As Salaamu Alaika Zidane,
Without going to the ayaat this second to study each conclusion you have made; upon first reading I like what you have said about qibla. I will study the conclusions here more and comment later, Allah willing. I am also in agreement about the Dome of the Rock. But my understanding/definition of As Salaat, as I have posted in another thread, is here
As Salaat is worship. Worship is devotional obedience. Worship is to obey Allah?s will, submit your will to do His. Not only is As Salaat worship/devotional obedience, but so should everything that we do in life be directed as such. As Salaat is going through training given to you by Allah the most High. The orientation of the mind to find or know thyself, is the most important thing. The Quran is given to wake up the mentally and spiritually dead to their original nature, or fitr. Allah created the human person to ascend in his person and soul. Allah created us for freedom of intellect. We should ask questions and learn all about ourselves, our nafs. Surrendering is to want to be reconciled with Allah?s original purpose for our creation. As Salaat is worship as a ritual that holds many signs and keys for our growth as human persons and human souls. To be able to stand up in your soul is the greatest achievement for the human being. As Salaat is a ritual that preserves knowledge. Knowledge about how to receive, follow and obey the guidance given to the human being from Allah.
Ritual 1a. The prescribed order of a religious ceremony. B. The body of ceremonies or rites used in a place of worship. 2a. The prescribed form of conducting a formal secular ceremony. B. The body of ceremonies used by a fraternal organization. 3. A book of rites or ceremonial forms. 4. rituals. A. A ceremonial act or series of such acts. B. The performance of such acts. 5a. A detailed method of procedure faithfully or regularly followed. B. A state or condition characterized by the presence of established procedure or routine.
Allah gives us many detailed descriptions about the ritual of As Salaat in Al Quran. The rituals are physical acts that preserve the knowlege and guidance contained in them and hidden from those who refuse to follow the command to perform them, or from those who do so without the sincerity required by Allah. The physical aspects of performing the ritual are not meant to be the most important aspect, but the spiritual growth that you get from performing the physical aspects of the ritual as instructed to you by Allah. Just as in this life the human body is connected to the human soul, and once they are separated, i.e. death, this existence ends; also in As Salaat if one leaves off the physical aspects as defined by Allah in Al Quran, the spiritual aspects will be dead according to what Allah has given as the guidance for it in Al Quran.
When one is trying to define As Salaat from Al Quran, one must be conscious of the different grammatical forms that the root of the phrase is used as, S L W. All words containing the same root word are not meant or intended to mean the same thing in ANY language, including Quranic Arabic. Please notice the different definitions and grammatical forms of words with the root S L W already pointed out by DArgento earlier in this post. To disregard grammatical forms in definitions is to cheat yourself in understanding.
Greetings,
Though this thread has been inactive for quite a while, but I recently had some discussions with some people and see that a theory about the "qibla" or "focal point" is quite interesting.
Let's consider this analysis/theory about the "qibla"/focal point
NOTE This is just a THEORY. The following is a redition of the verses explaining this theory. Please help correct/check it and show your views.
NOTE This is probably about a nation that has passed away as in 2134, 2141, so please don't take too much attention on it more than believing in God and doing good.*Please note that the ?believers? referred to here are those who are with the prophet at that time, and ?you? mostly refers to the prophet.
-Prior to 240 God is re-telling the stories that the people of the scripture know.
-God adresses the Children of Israel directly from 240 onwards, telling them to realize and accept this new revelation that God has sent down, authenticating what they already have, clarifying what they mixed with falsehood, etc... Read on...
-In 2114, God shows that the people of the scripture boycott God's temple, not allow God's name to be mentioned in the temples... Not allowing people to do so, so in 2115 God shows that God is everywhere, no need to worry about their disallowance at that time ? maybe deal with it later.
-2125 shows that God entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael to purify the temple for those who visit ? a gathering place for those who want to humbly accept and follow God's bonds/laws that were revealed ? and remember/praise/discuss about God there. The people of the scripture came to disallow this as in 2114. (Yes, it's evident that most probably this is at the rock in Jerusalem ? see Layth's ?Where was Muhammad? article at http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/moh.htm)
-The prophet and believers now probably realize that the original gathering place/temple set by God is Abraham's temple. So the prophet and the belivers are eager to go and gather there to remember, praise God, study the revelations there, etc.
-Since it is disallowed to gather there, a debate between God's Messenger (Muhammad) and the people of the scripture starts from 2135, God tells the Messenger what to tell them (2136 onwards...)
-*** Now, in 2142 shows that some people in this ongoing debate came to ask what made the believers change their ***gathering place/qibla from what they were on. That is, why the believers come to gather here at this temple which the people of the scripture forbade? The reason is shown from the context that they come here because they want to go to re-use the temple where God entrusted Abraham to set up.
-In 2143 - it shows that the reason that God entrusted Abraham to make such a temple/place/gathering point was to distinguish who really follows God's messenger(s) from those who will turn on their heels. It's like who's willing to take action ? do the belief as practical reality. This is also probably the reason why God reavealed Abraham's temple story/details to them. It was a great thing for the believers or those who came to accept belief to clearly identify themselves - step out to cross the line. God was not to waste their belief ? God gave them a chance to do better by taking action.
-In 2144, (God sees the eagerness of the prophet to use this original gathering place as revealed) God decrees onto the believers to set themselves to this original place as the gathering place/point ? to conquer it back from the oppressors who disallowed to use it even the believers with the prophet are to be chased out (?go out?). They know about it but they hide the truth ? disallow gathering there.
-2145 Shows none of the groups would gather together. The people of the scripture know that this is Abraham's (physical) temple/sanctuary yet they disallow using it for the causes as in 2125.
-2148 Shows that whatever the group, it's besst to remember to maintain doing good.
-2149 - 150 tells the prophet and the believers there to take this decree to gather at Abaraham's temple strongly. And, since the people of the scripture don't gather there so they won't come to debate overthere except those who are wicked as in 2114 who want to disallow its use ? don't fear them but fear God instead so God can guide & bless the believers (this is probably the ?God will not waste your belief? in 2143)
-2151-153 Re assures the believers of God's blessing upon them by revealing this revelation to them so be grateful to God and so hold on to God's bond/salat patiently.
-Upto now, since the believers show their standing point clearly, confrontation would happen, so 2154-157 shows about handling these situations.
Conclusion
According to this theory, ?qibla? or ?Focal Point? means ?gathering point/place?. Try it with 1087 also.
This theory is also based on the theories/understandings that
-
The ?masjid al haram? is at the dome of the rock in Jerusalem. See http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/moh.htm
-
Salat means bond (mostly used as upholding God's commandments). See http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm and http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
May God Guide.
-
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As Salaamu Alaika Zidane brother,
Your welcome and thanks likewise. And AGREED, lets not get off topic here. ) Another new or previous thread. But they are related since qibla has for so long been associated with As Salaat. This theory that you mention has implications for it's use in regards to As Salaat.
Peace Dear ImamQuranonly,
Thanks for your kind reply dear brother.
I think I can find/remember your ritual salat thread, perhaps we can discuss it there (when I have more time...). Let's not get off-topic here.
Peace.
May God Guide.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Peace Zidane,
-*** Now, in 2142 shows that some people in this ongoing debate came to ask what made the believers change their ***gathering place/qibla from what they were on. That is, why the believers come to gather here at this temple which the people of the scripture forbade? The reason is shown from the context that they come here because they want to go to re-use the temple where God entrusted Abraham to set up.
In 2142, the foolish people ask "what made them turn away from the "qibla" that they were on", not "what made them turn to this or that shrine". Reading intelligently the response of the messenger, we can know what the true "qibla" is. He responds "to the god belongs the east and the west, he guides whom he wills to a straight path".
We can empirically verify the truth in 2142. Go to any Mosque (facing Mekka) or Jewish temple (facing Jerusalem) or old Christian Church (facing the winter sunrise). While everyone is praying in their direction, "turn away" and face a random direction. You will certainly be asked by people there something equivalent to "what made you turn away from the "qibla" that you were on?". The only congregational place where you will not be asked this question is a place where people already know that the god is everywhere (to the god belongs the east and the west) and that being on the "straight path" has nothing to do with any physical direction. Try this experiment to empirically verify the truth that, whether it is Mekka, Jerusalem or the sun, people who make it a point to face those things are foolish people.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Zidane,
In 2142, the foolish people ask "what made them turn away from the "qibla" that they were on", not "what made them turn to this or that shrine". Reading intelligently the response of the messenger, we can know what the true "qibla" is. He responds "to the god belongs the east and the west, he guides whom he wills to a straight path".
We can empirically verify the truth in 2142. Go to any Mosque (facing Mekka) or Jewish temple (facing Jerusalem) or old Christian Church (facing the winter sunrise). While everyone is praying in their direction, "turn away" and face a random direction. You will certainly be asked by people there something equivalent to "what made you turn away from the "qibla" that you were on?". The only congregational place where you will not be asked this question is a place where people already know that the god is everywhere (to the god belongs the east and the west) and that being on the "straight path" has nothing to do with any physical direction. Try this experiment to empirically verify the truth that, whether it is Mekka, Jerusalem or the sun, people who make it a point to face those things are foolish people.Peace,
Ayman
Very important assertion ,(red part), Good post
siki
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Peace dear Dr ayman & siki,
Thanks for your suggestions & details, very interesting - I'll try to think about it more.
My question was that could "qibla" mean "gathering point"?
(Because it seems to go in harmony with the context from what I read (with my little knowledge...) as described in the post.)
The prophet and the believers with him needed a physical place to gather... Then, after seeing the revelation about the objective of Abraham's temple in 2125 - for people who visit and want to learn/remember humbly/sincerely about God alone monotheism - that was then boycott as in 2114, they wanted to set things straight (and showed in eagerness as in 2144...) Yes, like in the long post/theory above.
For me, it seems to go well with 1087 too...
In my post, I didn't mean that the "qibla" is used as a "direction" to "face to", so I find your reply - dear Dr Ayman - irrelevant to the theory I posted. (Please pardon me if I am too ignorant or too little in intelligence - please be patient and explain to me again.)
The "turn away", for me is the same as abandon/boycott as in 2114
Peace.
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Peace Zidane,
My question was that could "qibla" mean "gathering point"?
(Because it seems to go in harmony with the context from what I read (with my little knowledge...) as described in the post.)
The prophet and the believers with him needed a physical place to gather... Then, after seeing the revelation about the objective of Abraham's temple in 2125 - for people who visit and want to learn/remember humbly/sincerely about God alone monotheism - that was then boycott as in 2114, they wanted to set things straight (and showed in eagerness as in 2144...) Yes, like in the long post/theory above.
For me, it seems to go well with 1087 too...
In my post, I didn't mean that the "qibla" is used as a "direction" to "face to", so I find your reply - dear Dr Ayman - irrelevant to the theory I posted. (Please pardon me if I am too ignorant or too little in intelligence - please be patient and explain to me again.)
The "turn away", for me is the same as abandon/boycott as in 2114I think that in 2144, it sounds like the "qibla"/target/destination is something that we are directed to "face" (literally Arabic "wagh" means "face". I am open to better interpretations but so far it doesn't make any more sense to "gather" in some place "wherever we are" than it does to "face" some place "wherever we are".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace dear Dr Ayman,
Thanks very much for your views.
Yes, it doesn't make any sense to "gather" in a place "wherever they are". I didn't mean that "wagh" means "gather" nor "face". I meant that it means "target" to go to the "gathering place"/qibla.
I meant that, wherever they are ("you" in 2144, for me, refers to the prophet and the believers with him, NOT us - according to the context), they should "wagh"/target to go there to gather and use the place Abraham has set to meet its objective as revealed.
Even though there were chased out ("go out", they should "wagh"/target to come back to use/liberate this restricted temple - this leads to the war that was then to happen - to chase the oppressors out of where they chased them (prophet and believers) out. (And probably the Crusades later... Salahuddin, etc... up to now... to liberate the "restricted temple" right there in Jerusalem. I really like your article that shows that "makka" means destruction...)
I meant that, could the "qibla" (the restricted temple - the original one Abraham has set) mean the "gathering place" that the believers were decreed to use and establish? They should "target" to gather there at the restricted temple.
Same as in 1087, the people were to use their homes as their "gathering point" for (preparing, before) their exodus out of Egypt.
Peace.
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Qibla as focal point is perfect as a description, gathering or facing comes under the act of focusing.
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As Salaamu Alaika Zidane brother,
Your welcome and thanks likewise. And AGREED, lets not get off topic here. ) Another new or previous thread. But they are related since qibla has for so long been associated with As Salaat. This theory that you mention has implications for it's use in regards to As Salaat.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peacePeace,
Yes, qibla(direction) and salaat(reaching out) is very much related. But then again we differ in our understanding of how in which way they are related.
In my understanding both qibla and salaat isn't any physically terms. We shall direct our salat to masjid al haram( the truth from our lord) and Jerusalem the actually meaning of that name is state of peace(correct me if I'm wrong).
So if we add all those aspects we are asked from Quran to always turn to masjid al haram(the truth from our lord) where ever we are.
When we perform salat(reaching out) we wish and ask for things in our lives and we also are grateful for what we have already. So to reaching out is something we do for our own good. God doesn't need our reaching out but the reaching out is an echo or changing of energy.
For me all those famous places as, Makka in SA and Al Aqsa in Jerusalem etc has no status or meaning for my faith in God and reaching out to him.
If I ever want to visit these places it would be for the sake that they have been famous not for any religious purpose.Maria
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Dear Maria,
The theory that you stated sounds very nice to us and yes, that's the truth to turn to God's truth for success.
I would like to point out, however, that those verses are not talking to us - same as 1087 is not talking to us.
Yes, I'd try to research more about the theory about "masjid" not being a physical place. As for now, I'd just like to remind us all that the prophet and his believers, and us, we all need physical places to gather,learn,teach & live our lives - and please remember that the wars that happen in the quran were probably physical and should have taken a physical place to happen.
As for me, I see salat means "bond" (to God - to follow his commandments closely) and this is not the same for all people - so I wouldn't say that "salat" relates to "their homes (in Egypt)" or "the masjidal haram" for everyone.
God's laws (that we're bonded to follow) has both physical parts (NOT the ritual...) like physically speaking in a kind way to parents, helping the poor, orphans, (taking action in doing good,) etc... AND mental parts like glorifying him morning and evening, not setting up anything with him, etc.
From the context, those chapter 2 verses mentioned in the "theory" I posted are bonds/decrees to the prophet and his believers, same as 1087 is to Moses and his people. So the relation of salat to "qibla" is dependent on the different people God decreed laws to.
Yes, it's good to not set anything inbetween in our reaching out to God connect (tell/praise/ask etc...) with God directly.
Peace.
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Peace Br Zidane,
I agree that gathering is a good thing and we can gather for different occasions. Of course there are both physically and spiritually things mentioned in Quran. And in matter of fact that we have both a body and soul we shall treat ourselves in a good way for our own best and to be a good example for eachother and that is Quran excellent to guide us in.
But the main message from God has been the same from the very beginning, I think there is a verse which also states that.
The people of Moses and The people of Mohammad are examples for us and even if they lived during totally different times on earth their goal was the same. To uphold the law from God. To be grateful. And it was a very big challenge for them to be grateful and there are many examples of that in Quran especially about the people of Moses how stubborn and ungrateful they were even if they got saved from the tyranni of Pharao. They complained about the food and they took the golden calf as an idol etc.
The people of Mohammad were difficult to teach and they only liked to drink liquor and enjoy themselves with harem girls. The rich had difficult to accept that poor was to take care of and that they had to give of their wealth.They accused the prophet and weren't grateful even if he showed alot of patience trough difficult times to others so they could learn something out of it.
Much of the message is about being grateful and the benefits from it and the opposite of not being grateful. So the message of being grateful and being in a state of peace leads to happiness.
Maria