Focal Point
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Qibla as focal point is perfect as a description, gathering or facing comes under the act of focusing.
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As Salaamu Alaika Zidane brother,
Your welcome and thanks likewise. And AGREED, lets not get off topic here. ) Another new or previous thread. But they are related since qibla has for so long been associated with As Salaat. This theory that you mention has implications for it's use in regards to As Salaat.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peacePeace,
Yes, qibla(direction) and salaat(reaching out) is very much related. But then again we differ in our understanding of how in which way they are related.
In my understanding both qibla and salaat isn't any physically terms. We shall direct our salat to masjid al haram( the truth from our lord) and Jerusalem the actually meaning of that name is state of peace(correct me if I'm wrong).
So if we add all those aspects we are asked from Quran to always turn to masjid al haram(the truth from our lord) where ever we are.
When we perform salat(reaching out) we wish and ask for things in our lives and we also are grateful for what we have already. So to reaching out is something we do for our own good. God doesn't need our reaching out but the reaching out is an echo or changing of energy.
For me all those famous places as, Makka in SA and Al Aqsa in Jerusalem etc has no status or meaning for my faith in God and reaching out to him.
If I ever want to visit these places it would be for the sake that they have been famous not for any religious purpose.Maria
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Dear Maria,
The theory that you stated sounds very nice to us and yes, that's the truth to turn to God's truth for success.
I would like to point out, however, that those verses are not talking to us - same as 1087 is not talking to us.
Yes, I'd try to research more about the theory about "masjid" not being a physical place. As for now, I'd just like to remind us all that the prophet and his believers, and us, we all need physical places to gather,learn,teach & live our lives - and please remember that the wars that happen in the quran were probably physical and should have taken a physical place to happen.
As for me, I see salat means "bond" (to God - to follow his commandments closely) and this is not the same for all people - so I wouldn't say that "salat" relates to "their homes (in Egypt)" or "the masjidal haram" for everyone.
God's laws (that we're bonded to follow) has both physical parts (NOT the ritual...) like physically speaking in a kind way to parents, helping the poor, orphans, (taking action in doing good,) etc... AND mental parts like glorifying him morning and evening, not setting up anything with him, etc.
From the context, those chapter 2 verses mentioned in the "theory" I posted are bonds/decrees to the prophet and his believers, same as 1087 is to Moses and his people. So the relation of salat to "qibla" is dependent on the different people God decreed laws to.
Yes, it's good to not set anything inbetween in our reaching out to God connect (tell/praise/ask etc...) with God directly.
Peace.
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Peace Br Zidane,
I agree that gathering is a good thing and we can gather for different occasions. Of course there are both physically and spiritually things mentioned in Quran. And in matter of fact that we have both a body and soul we shall treat ourselves in a good way for our own best and to be a good example for eachother and that is Quran excellent to guide us in.
But the main message from God has been the same from the very beginning, I think there is a verse which also states that.
The people of Moses and The people of Mohammad are examples for us and even if they lived during totally different times on earth their goal was the same. To uphold the law from God. To be grateful. And it was a very big challenge for them to be grateful and there are many examples of that in Quran especially about the people of Moses how stubborn and ungrateful they were even if they got saved from the tyranni of Pharao. They complained about the food and they took the golden calf as an idol etc.
The people of Mohammad were difficult to teach and they only liked to drink liquor and enjoy themselves with harem girls. The rich had difficult to accept that poor was to take care of and that they had to give of their wealth.They accused the prophet and weren't grateful even if he showed alot of patience trough difficult times to others so they could learn something out of it.
Much of the message is about being grateful and the benefits from it and the opposite of not being grateful. So the message of being grateful and being in a state of peace leads to happiness.
Maria
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The people of Mohammad were difficult to teach and they only liked to drink liquor and enjoy themselves with harem girls. The rich had difficult to accept that poor was to take care of and that they had to give of their wealth.They accused the prophet and weren't grateful even if he showed alot of patience trough difficult times to others so they could learn something out of it.
So in other words, they were just normal people as we have today? Or are the "people of Mohammad" different with different brains, reasoning and thinking?
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As Salaamu Alaikum,
Peace,
Yes, qibla(direction) and salaat(reaching out) is very much related. But then again we differ in our understanding of how in which way they are related.
In my understanding both qibla and salaat isn't any physically terms. We shall direct our salat to masjid al haram( the truth from our lord) and Jerusalem the actually meaning of that name is state of peace(correct me if I'm wrong).
So if we add all those aspects we are asked from Quran to always turn to masjid al haram(the truth from our lord) where ever we are.
When we perform salat(reaching out) we wish and ask for things in our lives and we also are grateful for what we have already. So to reaching out is something we do for our own good. God doesn't need our reaching out but the reaching out is an echo or changing of energy.
For me all those famous places as, Makka in SA and Al Aqsa in Jerusalem etc has no status or meaning for my faith in God and reaching out to him.
If I ever want to visit these places it would be for the sake that they have been famous not for any religious purpose.Maria
It amazing me at the extent that people will go to define As Salaat as something or anything other than having a physical performance. Reaching out, bond, etc. are "parts" of As Salaat, true. But when you ignore the numerous ayaat that clearly denote the "physical" performance of the ritual that perserves that knowledge, wisdom and guidance contained in As Salaat, you destroy the essence of what Allah has given you to be guided with. It's like saying read the Quran silently forever and there is never any need to physically recite it out loud because all that is important is the understanding of the message. While no one can argue that the understanding of the message is the most important thing, you will miss many hidden benefits that Allah has contained in the "physical" act of reciting Al Quran in an audible voice; i.e. the programming of the sub conscious that you have nothing to do with.
The physical acts of standing, bowing and prostrating have physical, mental and spiritual affects on those who perform them as directed by Allah, assuming that their intentions are sincere. Meditating like a buddist or something is not performing As Salaat as Allah has described in Al Quran. While you may get some benefits from it as a person may get from exercise or even drugs, it is not what Allah has called As Salaat.
While the physical places associated with names such as Al Masjid Al Haraam, etc., may have been corrupted by sunnis and shias, the fact that they exist should not be in question from the context given in Al Quran. The arguments given for Al Masjid Al Haram being "the truth from our Lord" and other such nonsense, amazes me because those arguments are so weak and don't hold up to the scrutiny of all the ayaat of Al Quran; yet many people here continue to expound these theories. If it is necessary to revisit these arguments and refute them one by one from Al Quran, I guess over time that is what will have to be done if those believing in them would like to do so.
These types of understanding are not freeing people to understand Al Islam better, it is only separating your idea of Islam as being opposite of sunnis/shias, etc. To go from one extreme to another is not generally considered progress. Just my 2 cents.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Neither does your idea of praying to God and hoping problems will vanish. Ref 470-80.
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So in other words, they were just normal people as we have today? Or are the "people of Mohammad" different with different brains, reasoning and thinking?
Peace,
Yeah the people of Muhammad was very likely as the people of today, but can even that be a good lessons for us to learn. I mean it's so easy to be blind of what you have just infront of your eyes but when you read about someone else and how they behave then it can be more easy to grasp it and invoke it in your life.
Maria
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Neither does your idea of praying to God and hoping problems will vanish. Ref 470-80.
Not sure if this was directed towards me or not, but I will respond. I don't have an idea of praying to God and hoping problems will vanish. I pray to Allah and ask for forgiveness, mercy and guidance. To let His will be done. This means that some problems I have will not go as I want them to because maybe my idea of what is best is not what is best in the long run. Allah understands everything and I barely understand a little of what's going on. So I pray and put my faith/trust in the fact that Allah will choose what is best for me and direct that. After I pray, I do what is in my power to direct my life according to the principles laid down by Allah. What happens after that is just a part of life, and I welcome life whether it is difficult or ease. Surely with every difficulty comes ease.
I have no idea what your reference to the ayaat of 470-80 have to do with this thread or your comment. Maybe you would like to explain.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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As Salaamu Alaikum,
It amazing me at the extent that people will go to define As Salaat as something or anything other than having a physical performance. Reaching out, bond, etc. are "parts" of As Salaat, true. But when you ignore the numerous ayaat that clearly denote the "physical" performance of the ritual that perserves that knowledge, wisdom and guidance contained in As Salaat, you destroy the essence of what Allah has given you to be guided with. It's like saying read the Quran silently forever and there is never any need to physically recite it out loud because all that is important is the understanding of the message. While no one can argue that the understanding of the message is the most important thing, you will miss many hidden benefits that Allah has contained in the "physical" act of reciting Al Quran in an audible voice; i.e. the programming of the sub conscious that you have nothing to do with.
The physical acts of standing, bowing and prostrating have physical, mental and spiritual affects on those who perform them as directed by Allah, assuming that their intentions are sincere. Meditating like a buddist or something is not performing As Salaat as Allah has described in Al Quran. While you may get some benefits from it as a person may get from exercise or even drugs, it is not what Allah has called As Salaat.
While the physical places associated with names such as Al Masjid Al Haraam, etc., may have been corrupted by sunnis and shias, the fact that they exist should not be in question from the context given in Al Quran. The arguments given for Al Masjid Al Haram being "the truth from our Lord" and other such nonsense, amazes me because those arguments are so weak and don't hold up to the scrutiny of all the ayaat of Al Quran; yet many people here continue to expound these theories. If it is necessary to revisit these arguments and refute them one by one from Al Quran, I guess over time that is what will have to be done if those believing in them would like to do so.
These types of understanding are not freeing people to understand Al Islam better, it is only separating your idea of Islam as being opposite of sunnis/shias, etc. To go from one extreme to another is not generally considered progress. Just my 2 cents.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Peace Brother,
You said that I ignore the physical performance of salat that are mentioned in Quran, but why do you really see them as physical?
If I take all those verses and look to the whole of the message in Quran I cannot see them as physically anymore.
There is no meaning and effect of physically bow down to God, but to bow down spiritually is alot more beneficial for you because then you will be in contact in a more direct way.But Ok, if someone practise both physical and spiritually salat they can of course do that, who stop you really!?
But to claim that I must perform a physical ritual to uphold salat do I found wrong.You also said that meditating like a buddhist is not a performing of salat, that can only stand for you, I have not said that I do meditate as a form of salat but I said that salat is a spiritually way of connecting directly with God.
God is a force and we are also forces, to connect we do it with intensive thoughts which changes recievers and then boomerang back to you.
How can you achieve it with only physical bow down?
Ok, you see me as extremes and I can understand that, but I'm not a warmonger and my goal is not to blame other believers but instead promote that there is another form of believe in God or Universe.
Thanks
Peace
Maria -
Peace SwedenMajidah sister,
Peace Brother,
You said that I ignore the physical performance of salat that are mentioned in Quran, but why do you really see them as physical?
If I take all those verses and look to the whole of the message in Quran I cannot see them as physically anymore.
There is no meaning and effect of physically bow down to God, but to bow down spiritually is alot more beneficial for you because then you will be in contact in a more direct way.But Ok, if someone practise both physical and spiritually salat they can of course do that, who stop you really!?
But to claim that I must perform a physical ritual to uphold salat do I found wrong.You also said that meditating like a buddhist is not a performing of salat, that can only stand for you, I have not said that I do meditate as a form of salat but I said that salat is a spiritually way of connecting directly with God.
God is a force and we are also forces, to connect we do it with intensive thoughts which changes recievers and then boomerang back to you.
How can you achieve it with only physical bow down?
Ok, you see me as extremes and I can understand that, but I'm not a warmonger and my goal is not to blame other believers but instead promote that there is another form of believe in God or Universe.
Thanks
Peace
MariaI see them as physical because the clear evidence of the Prophet and his followers making a physical performance of As Salaat is irrefuteable from ayaat such as 4102 and many others.
Physically bowing down to God is only a representation of submitting to do His will and not your own, just as not eating pork. Bowing down physically is supposed to make you connect with bowing down spiritual as well. The physical ritual is a reminder for you to do so spiritually. If you bow down physically, but not spiritually, then it does have no effect on you.
I only claim that those who say that they have trusting faith in Allah must bow down physically as well as spiritually because that is what Allah commands in Al Quran, clearly. So it is not my opinion, but written scripture from Al Quran.
It is the word of Allah in Al Quran that will reprogram your sub conscious to obey Him properly, if you use the manual as instructed. Bowing and prostrating as well as reciting Al Quran in an audible voice are part of the manuals instructions, not mine.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Peace SwedenMajidah sister,
I see them as physical because the clear evidence of the Prophet and his followers making a physical performance of As Salaat is irrefuteable from ayaat such as 4102 and many others.
Physically bowing down to God is only a representation of submitting to do His will and not your own, just as not eating pork. Bowing down physically is supposed to make you connect with bowing down spiritual as well. The physical ritual is a reminder for you to do so spiritually. If you bow down physically, but not spiritually, then it does have no effect on you.
I only claim that those who say that they have trusting faith in Allah must bow down physically as well as spiritually because that is what Allah commands in Al Quran, clearly. So it is not my opinion, but written scripture from Al Quran.
It is the word of Allah in Al Quran that will reprogram your sub conscious to obey Him properly, if you use the manual as instructed. Bowing and prostrating as well as reciting Al Quran in an audible voice are part of the manuals instructions, not mine.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Peace,
Wow, we differ alot in our beliefs.
Maybe because I see flaws in Quran. I doubt that we shall obey God. We shall obey ourselves. We have the power, we are one with the higher power so we are a team or something.Muhammad was a human and he had visions and his visions came in form of a scripture but who has said that his visions was 100% true?
There are alot of healthy advices in Quran but there are also alot of strange things you cannot grasp and find no meaning in because it goes against the law of nature and law of attraction as well.
You create your own life and you choose if you want to live in paradise or hell, there is no god who put you in a place, come on it feels like some people are neanderthals i'm sorry the language but i feel so frustrated when people cannot open up for the reality.
There is no religions and there is no god in that concept most people think of. We are a part of Universe and we are effected of the planets and stars sun and moon etc all energy forces.
So the focal point is what we wish for what is our goal and that can differ from person to person. The only truth is that the Universe are very fair, it gives back to you what you have begged for may it be positive or negative, you are the only one who can change that.
So in the beginning you'll have to be egoistic because you must start with yourself. You shall love yourself and then you can love others.
Maria
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Peace SwedenMajidah,
Do you consider yourself and agnostic or atheist? Either way, it is clear that you don't consider yourself a "muslim" or "mu'min", i.e. one that believes that Al Quran was revealed from Allah and has faith in it. I mean, how could you be when you don't even acknowledge the existence of Allah? That being said, I can only pray for you; although Im sure you don't think that that is necessary. Good luck.
As Salaamu alaikum, peace
Peace,
Wow, we differ alot in our beliefs.
Maybe because I see flaws in Quran. I doubt that we shall obey God. We shall obey ourselves. We have the power, we are one with the higher power so we are a team or something.Muhammad was a human and he had visions and his visions came in form of a scripture but who has said that his visions was 100% true?
There are alot of healthy advices in Quran but there are also alot of strange things you cannot grasp and find no meaning in because it goes against the law of nature and law of attraction as well.
You create your own life and you choose if you want to live in paradise or hell, there is no god who put you in a place, come on it feels like some people are neanderthals i'm sorry the language but i feel so frustrated when people cannot open up for the reality.
There is no religions and there is no god in that concept most people think of. We are a part of Universe and we are effected of the planets and stars sun and moon etc all energy forces.
So the focal point is what we wish for what is our goal and that can differ from person to person. The only truth is that the Universe are very fair, it gives back to you what you have begged for may it be positive or negative, you are the only one who can change that.
So in the beginning you'll have to be egoistic because you must start with yourself. You shall love yourself and then you can love others.
Maria
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Peace,
Do you consider yourself and agnostic or atheist? Either way, it is clear that you don't consider yourself a "muslim" or "mu'min", i.e. one that believes that Al Quran was revealed from Allah and has faith in it.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15111.0
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Peace,
Quote
Do you consider yourself and agnostic or atheist? Either way, it is clear that you don't consider yourself a "muslim" or "mu'min", i.e. one that believes that Al Quran was revealed from Allah and has faith in it.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15111.0
As Salaamu Alaika DArgento,
I understand the point of that link, and agree or disagree is not the issue of my questioning. The point is clearly that for one to be even the description of what a "muslim" or "mu'min" is, according to Al Quran, one would still believe that Al Quran was revealed from Allah and have faith in it. Al Quran is the essence of repeating what the previous books contained, so those who believed in the previous books revealed by Allah, in essence by default believe in Al Quran as well; even though it was revealed after their time.
I think anyone who questions the existence of Allah and whether the Quran (or other revelations from Allah) is scripture from Him, would not qualify for either category of "muslim" or "mu'min" now or in the past. Unless I misunderstood her, that is what SwedenMajidah is saying about herself.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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^ I have to agree with that.
But the quran itself isn't tied to the name "muslim" (actually, the end concept of success in the afterlife) anywhere in the way that "muslim" needs belief in the quran.
I think anyone who questions the existence of Allah and whether the Quran (or other revelations from Allah) is scripture from Him, would not qualify for either category of "muslim" or "mu'min" now or in the past. Unless I misunderstood her, that is what SwedenMajidah is saying about herself.
Completely disagreed. I.e.
I think anyone who questions the existence of Allah and whether the Hadith (or other revelations from Allah) is scripture from Him, would not qualify for either category of "muslim" or "mu'min" now or in the past.
Abraham had no belief in anything called "The Quran". Indirectly, yes, he did but the quranic portrayal shows someone who just asked questions, got answers and got on with his life.
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^ I have to agree with that.
But the quran itself isn't tied to the name "muslim" (actually, the end concept of success in the afterlife) anywhere in the way that "muslim" needs belief in the quran.
To not believe in the books of Allah is called disbelief in Al Quran. One can not be a disbeliever and "muslim", whether it is a title or name. Belief in Quran is not the only criteria, but belief in the "signs (ayaat)" of Allah is mandatory. The Quran brings nothing new from the other books in its essence. So those who believed in the previous revealed messages qualify for belief in Al Quran.
Abraham had no belief in anything called "The Quran". Indirectly, yes, he did but the quranic portrayal shows someone who just asked questions, got answers and got on with his life.
The Quran is from the "mother of the book", i.e. the creational "ayaat" (signs). This is what the Quran indicates that Ibraheem studied to become "muslim". So when you say "INDIRECTLY", you are saying exactly what my point is!
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Peace IQO, OPF, all,
I think anyone who questions the existence of Allah and whether the Quran (or other revelations from Allah) is scripture from Him, would not qualify for either category of "muslim" or "mu'min" now or in the past
Perhaps it's semantics but what I'm getting from the above quote is akin to championing blind belief. To question the existence of Allah and the divinity of the quran is exactly what it takes, in my opinion, to solidify one's understanding. Without questioning we become reactionaries and, essentially, robotic recital machines.
Peace,
Tay -
As Salaamu Alaikum Tay and all,
Peace IQO, OPF, all,
Perhaps it's semantics but what I'm getting from the above quote is akin to championing blind belief. To question the existence of Allah and the divinity of the quran is exactly what it takes, in my opinion, to solidify one's understanding. Without questioning we become reactionaries and, essentially, robotic recital machines.
Peace,
TayI think blind belief would be accepting the book without studying it, as most sects do. But once one has come to study the book (Al Quran or other scriptures or creation itself, from Allah in the past), and thereafter reject them as being from Allah, then Allah says in Al Quran that they are in fact disbelievers. To question the existence of Allah is a normal natural state that is exemplied by the story of Ibraheem. But once he was presented with the "ayaat" of the scripture (the creation itself), he submitted and accepted their guidance as telling him to worship Allah alone and only; and thereby became "muslim".
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace