Focal Point

unknownuser

Peace brother,

Thank you for taking the time to address some of the points. God willing, we should arrive at the truth by being patient, connecting with The God, letting al-qur'aan explain itself, using our gifts of mind, logic, and reasoning, and continued constructive discussion, and then following the best meaning.

Brother, you still have not addressed a very important issue of wherever you are, and some other points.

if God asks us to face towards a physical building then by facing that building we are obeying Him. as for those of previous scipture knowing it is the Truth, this neither proves that al masjid al haram is a physical building (at mecca or elsewhere), nor disproves it.

If the people of previous scriptures know it is the truth from our Lord, and know it as they know their children (2146), then how come none of them knows about or acknowledges any "al-masjid al-haraam" at mecca or anywhere else ? After all, they are supposed to know it as they know their children. Please go and ask any one of the knowledgable people of previous scriptures and that will be empirical verification of this issue.
It bothers me when people quote partial phrases and then base their conclusions on the partial phrase, instead of taking the whole phrase into account.

Brother, The God asks us to face towards "al-masjid al-haraam" WHEREVER WE ARE, and not just face towards "al-masjid al-haraam". Now please think with an open mind and address the following issues, which you have neglected in your previous post

You are driving on I-10 (in USA) going west. You are somewhere, right ? Now WHEREVER you are on I-10, you are supposed to face al-masjid al-haraam, how are you going to do it ? Remember, you are sitting in a car, driving on I-10 going west, and you are supposed to be facing al-masjid al-haraam which is supposedly located in Mecca or Jerusalem, how are you going to face it in that situation ? If not then you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
You are sitting in your friends house watching TV. His furniture is arranged in such a way that when you sit on his sofa, you are facing west. For argument sake, lets say that in that area, the supposed al-masjid al-haraam is east of you. Now in this situation, you are somewhere right ? How are you going to face al-masjid al-haraam which is to your east, while watching TV facing west ? The only way is by rearranging all the furniture in your friends place so that you can face east. Do you do that when you visit your friends place ? If not you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
You are sitting in your own home on the toilet facing west, and al-masjid al-haraam is supposedly towards the east. Now remember that according to 2144 you are supposed to face "al-masjid al-haram" WHEREVER you are. When you are sitting on the toilet, you are somewhere, right ? How can you face al-majid al-haraam on your east while you are sitting on a toilet which is built in such a way that you are facing west when you are sitting on it ? If not, then you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
Right now, you must be sitting in front of your computer, facing a certain direction, which is most likely not in the supposed direction of al-masjid al-haraam. If that is true, are you not disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150 ?
When you go to sleep on your bed, you must lie down on your back with your face up at some time thus facing the sky, or on your side with your face not facing the supposed physical al-masjid al-haraam at some time. The moment you do that, you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.

Now tell me the following

WHICH PHYSICAL DIRECTION IN THE WORLD IS SUCH THAT ONE WILL BE FACING THAT PHYSICAL DIRECTION WHEREVER ONE IS ?

I hope you can see clearly that this is an impossible interpretation.

from this verse (not having a good understanding of arabic or the rest of the Quran), it is not clear whether it speaks about God distinguishing or men distinguishing between the followers of the message from those "who turn on their heels". if it refers to men, then it is easier to distinguish between men facing different physical directions than it is to distinguish between men have disparate mental foci. this verse in no ways supports the argument of a mental qibla.

The distinguishing is for both The God and the people. Suppose you take a test, and the teacher declares you in 1st position without announcing each person's test results to all others, would the students not complain and object to that and claim that it was not fair ?
A hypocrite can easily pretend to be a believer and face a certain physical direction with the other believers, thereby deceiving them. It is, however, IMPOSSIBLE for a hypocrite to mentally keep facing the inviolable institution of obedience and be a hypocrite at the same time.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to distinguish a hypocrite from a believer just on the basis of facing a physical direction.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for a hypocrite to keep facing the inviolable institution of obedience.

The ONLY way to distinguish a hypocrite from a believer would be if the "qiblatan" is a mental one. For example, if one mentally faces the inviolable institution of obedience wherever one is, one cannot be a hypocrite, because the actions/deeds will always match that mental "qiblatan".

What does piety have to do with facing a physical direction ?

2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who honors the Connection, and who contributes towards betterment; as well as those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.

Are The God's words not clear ?

even if an object is not in one's direct line of sight, it can still be faced. if you ask anyone to face the direction of a distant town or country, they will not see any impossibilty in this, just because the earth is spheroidal, it does not mean one cannot face another place. this is meaning that you will find anywhere in the world. to suggest that when God says "set your faces towards" or "face the direction of" He means something other than the commonsense notion of facing a direction is ludicrous. of course, a mental focus is also a commonsense and equally valid meaning.

You did not address the following point

You are sailing on a ship on the Pacific, and you are at a point on the surface of the Earth which is directly opposite where al-masjid al-haraam is supposedly located physically. Which direction do you face, and why not the other direction ?

if someone is inside a building, this does not mean he cannot face a tree becuse the walls of his building are in the way. nowhere on earth will you find a common man who interprets face towards as look along a geodesic of sight. the fact that visible light cannot pass through the the walls is totally irrelevant. when someone tell you to drive straight ahead, they do not mean drive through the hill in front. face towards and object does not mean look and see that object.

I think you misunderstood the relevant point again. I was not mentioning any building but the supposed physical al-masjid al-haraam, or the supposed physical Kaaba itself

You are standing in the so called Kaaba, in Mecca. You have to perform salaat in this situation. Which direction do you face ?

Actually the "qiblatan" is not only for salaat, but for wherever one is. Even if you are not performing salaat, you are supposed to face al-masjid al-haraam wherever you are, i.e. in every possible anatomical orientation of the human body. Facing which direction will you stand or sit IN the so called Kaaba, and why ?

Remember, in the Kaaba, when you are facing a certain direction, a major portion of the supposed physical al-masjid al-haraam will be behind you or on your sides. Facing the direction of something physical means that all of that physical thing has to be in front of you.

it is also straightforward for a man on the moon to face mecca, he simply needs to face the earth. if he is on the face of the moon opposite to the earth, he can still face in the direction of mecca by facing in that direction; it does not matter that he cannot see the earth because it is obscured by the moon on which he is stood.

I hope you can see the logical impossibility of the part of your quote in red.

Let me remind you The God asks us to face the direction of al-masjid al-haraam WHEREVER we are, which means that we should be facing it in whatever anatomical position we are. What you are suggesting can only happen if one is in a perpetual bowing position while standing on the Moon with the Earth on the opposite side. Even if you are lying down, you will always have to lie on your stomach so you are facing the Earth. While you are sitting, you will have to sit in a bowing position with your face towards Earth at all times. Do you see the absurdity of what you are proposing ?

to the best of my knowledge, there is no archeological evidence that these physical buildings existed at the time of revelation. however, neither is there proof that they did not exist.

i do not see any Quranic evidence that implies that mecca cannot be al masjid al haram because people were worshipping idols. of course my knowledge of the Quran is very limited, so please point out any such parts of the Quran.

Asking someone to bring proof of a negative statement is illogical. The burden of proof is on someone making a positive statement.

For example, someone cannot say that "Iraq has WMD" and then ask others to prove him wrong by bringing proof that Iraq does not have WMD. The burden of proof is on that person to bring proof that Iraq does have WMD.

You cannot just say that "al-masjid al-haraam" was in Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, and then ask others to bring proof that "al-masjid al-haraam" could not have been in Mecca at that time. You will have to bring proof that "al-masjid al-haraam" was in Mecca at that time. The burden of proof will be on you to prove the positive.

Nowhere in al-qur'aan does it mention that "al-masjid al-haraam" is in the so called Mecca. If you think that "al-masjid al-haraam" is or was a physical location in Mecca or elsewhere, then bring proof for it please.
There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a town named Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. If you think that a town named Mecca existed at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, then bring proof for it please.
There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a physical building by the name of Kaaba in the so called Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. In fact, there is evidence that shows that the pagan temple in the so called Mecca was renamed after the common noun "kaaba" in al-qur'aan, about 80-100 years after the revelation of al-qur'aan.

If you think that a physical building by the name Kaaba existed in the so called Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, then bring proof for it please.

There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Haraam in the so called Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. In fact, there is evidence that shows that such a physical building was constructed around the so called Kaaba many years after the revelation of al-qur'aan. The evidence also shows that at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, there was no physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Haraam in the so called Mecca.

If you think that a physical building by the name Masjid Al-Haraam existed in the so called Mecca or elsewhere at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, then bring proof for it please.

The God also mentions "al-masjid al-aqsa" in al-qur'aan. It is an established fact that the physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Aqsa was built in the Ummayad dynasty long after the revelation of al-qur'aan, thus it cannot be "al-masjid al-aqsa" talked about in Chapter 17. Even the staunchest sectarians admit that. If it is a physical building, then which building is "al-masjid al-aqsa" mentioned in 171 ?
The God tells us that His message is fully detailed and complete and details ALL things (6114-115, 6126, 12111, 1712), contains every example (1789, 1854, 3058, 3927) and clear explanation of everything (1689) relevant to our guidance to the straight path and is enough for our guidance (2951) and the prophet followed only the qur'aan (1015, 4105).

Did The God forget to tell us the physical location of al-masjid al-haraam in al-qur'aan ?

ignoramus

salam

brother Tanveer, God willing, i will respond to your post.

before i do so, i am having difficulty understanding 2143. the english translations include "the direction of prayer which thou hast formerly observed". can someone please help me make sense of this? is there a cocensus on what this former direction is?

thank you

salam

unknownuser

salam

brother Tanveer, God willing, i will respond to your post.

before i do so, i am having difficulty understanding 2143. the english translations include "the direction of prayer which thou hast formerly observed". can someone please help me make sense of this? is there a cocensus on what this former direction is?

thank you

salam

The traditional thought is that the prophet used to pray towards Al-Aqsa () and this was shifted to the cube.

unknownuser

Salaam brother,

There is no mention of any word meaning "prayer" in 2143. It also does not say anything about being "formerly observed".

2143 And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point/direction (al-qiblata) that you became on (allatee kunta 3alayhaa) except to distinguish who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.

It is talking about the "qiblata" that he became on, referring to the setting of "qiblata" towards "al-masjid al-haraam" in 2144, and not the previous direction/directions.

In other words, it talks about "qiblata" of "al-masjid al-haraam" distinguishing who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels.

It was a great thing indeed (very difficult) for those who will turn on their heels, to start facing a mental qiblata of the inviolable institution of obedience, instead of continuing to face their physical pagan idols, but it was easy for those whom The God had guided.

The God does not mention what the old direction/directions were and hence they are completely irrelevant.

unknownuser

Salaam all,

2142 mentions about them turning away from the "qiblata" that they WERE on, i.e. the former qiblata, and the wording used is "allatee kaanoo 3alayhaa", meaning "that they WERE on".

2143 uses the wording "allatee kunta 3alayhaa", meaning "that you BECAME on" (referring to the new qiblata of al-masjid al-haraam). If 2143 was pointing to the same qiblata that they WERE on, i.e. the old qiblata, then the wording should have been the same as in 2142, i.e. "allatee kaanoo 3alayha".

This is my understanding but it could be wrong. I would request those who are well founded in Classical Arabic to correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.

ignoramus

salam

whilst arabic experts are looking at brother Tanveer's post, would you mind commenting on . http//www.quraninenglish.com translates it as "make evident", brother Tanveer's translation is "distinguish".

thank you.

salam

unknownuser

Salaam brother,

From Project Root List, according to Lane's Lexicon

= Ayn-Lam-Miim = to mark/sign/distinguish, creations/beings, world, science/learning/knowledge/information, aware/know. By means of which one knows a thing, hence it signifies world or creation, because by it the Creator is known. alim (pl. ulama) - one who is learned/wise or knows.

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

"To distinguish" means "to mark off as different, to discern, to set apart as different, to show as different, to make prominent or eminent". "Distinguish" is between two categories such as in 2143.

"To make evident" means "to prove/demonstrate" or "to make obvious/manifest/apparent". The Arabic word would be "waadhi7" or "zaahir". "Make evident" is not between two categories.

ignoramus

Salaam brother,

From Project Root List, according to Lane's Lexicon

= Ayn-Lam-Miim = to mark/sign/distinguish, creations/beings, world, science/learning/knowledge/information, aware/know. By means of which one knows a thing, hence it signifies world or creation, because by it the Creator is known. alim (pl. ulama) - one who is learned/wise or knows.

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

"To distinguish" means "to mark off as different, to discern, to set apart as different, to show as different, to make prominent or eminent". "Distinguish" is between two categories such as in 2143.

"To make evident" means "to prove/demonstrate" or "to make obvious/manifest/apparent". The Arabic word would be "waadhi7" or "zaahir". "Make evident" is not between two categories.

salam brother

thank you very much for your help. i appreciate it.

salam

unknownuser

Salaam brother,

thank you very much for your help. i appreciate it.

You are most welcome brother. Please take your time and ponder over all the possibilities carefully and verify everything for yourself before trusting it.

unknownuser

Hello Tanveer,

Nowhere in al-qur'aan does it mention that "al-masjid al-haraam" is in the so called Mecca. If you think that "al-masjid al-haraam" is or was a physical location in Mecca or elsewhere, then bring proof for it please.
There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Haraam in the so called Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. In fact, there is evidence that shows that such a physical building was constructed around the so called Kaaba many years after the revelation of al-qur'aan. The evidence also shows that at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, there was no physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Haraam in the so called Mecca.

If you think that a physical building by the name Masjid Al-Haraam existed in the so called Mecca or elsewhere at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, then bring proof for it please.

The God also mentions "al-masjid al-aqsa" in al-qur'aan. It is an established fact that the physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Aqsa was built in the Ummayad dynasty long after the revelation of al-qur'aan, thus it cannot be "al-masjid al-aqsa" talked about in Chapter 17. Even the staunchest sectarians admit that. If it is a physical building, then which building is "al-masjid al-aqsa" mentioned in 171 ?
http//www.jewishmag.com/59mag/al-aqsa/al-aqsa2.htm

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Mosque

http//www.stanford.edu/~jamila/Aqsa.html

http//2jay.wordpress.com/2007/04/25/masjid-al-aqsa/

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masjid_al-Nabawi

http//www.alshindagah.com/Shindagah75/alaqsa_mosque.htm

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masjid_al-Haram

http//www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/mosque/kabah.html

There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a town named Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. If you think that a town named Mecca existed at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, then bring proof for it please.
There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a physical building by the name of Kaaba in the so called Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. In fact, there is evidence that shows that the pagan temple in the so called Mecca was renamed after the common noun "kaaba" in al-qur'aan, about 80-100 years after the revelation of al-qur'aan.

If you think that a physical building by the name Kaaba existed in the so called Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, then bring proof for it please.
http//www.mefeedia.com/entry/3351244/

http//www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kaba-history.htm

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

http//www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13045

http//www.ezsoftech.com/hajj/hajj_article1.asp

The God tells us that His message is fully detailed and complete and details ALL things (6114-115, 6126, 12111, 1712), contains every example (1789, 1854, 3058, 3927) and clear explanation of everything (1689) relevant to our guidance to the straight path and is enough for our guidance (2951) and the prophet followed only the qur'aan (1015, 4105).
Such claims are controversial and contradicting several other verses of the Quran.

Peace!

Leoxyz

Peace brother,

There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a town named Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. If you think that a town named Mecca existed at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, then bring proof for it please.
There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a physical building by the name of Kaaba in the so called Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. In fact, there is evidence that shows that the pagan temple in the so called Mecca was renamed after the common noun "kaaba" in al-qur'aan, about 80-100 years after the revelation of al-qur'aan.

PEARL OR DIAMOND OF THE DAY
A KNOWLEDGE OF QURANIST -- SUBHANALLAH /MASHALLAH

EVIDENCE IS PRESENT SIR

Importance of Makkah

Picture of the Kaaba taken in 1880Academic historians, however, state with certainty only that Makkah was a shrine and trading center for a number of generations before Prophet Muhammad . The extent of Makkan trade has been hotly debated. Some historians believe that Makkah was a waypoint on a land route from southern Arabia north to the Roman and Byzantine empires, and that Arabian and Indian Ocean spices were funneled through Makkah. Patricia Crone, in her book Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam, argues that the Meccans were small merchants dealing in hides, camel butter, and the like.

According to the Qur'n and Muslim traditions, the city was attacked by an Ethiopian Aksumite army led by Abraha in 570, the year of Muhammad's birth. The attack was said to have been repelled by stones dropped by thousands of birds, followed by a plague.

Before the time of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, Makkah was under the control of the Banu Quraish. Muhammad, a member of the Banu Quraish, exiled from the city for preaching against paganism, returned to the city in triumph in 630 and after removing the cult images from the Kaaba, dedicating it as the center of Muslim pilgrimage. (For further information, see the main article, Conquest of Mecca.)

View of Mecca 1910After the rise of the Islamic empire, Makkah attracted pilgrims from all over the extensive empire, as well as a year-round population of scholars, pious Muslims who wished to live close to the Kaaba, and local inhabitants who served the pilgrims. Due to the difficulty and expense of the Hajj, the annual pilgrimage was small compared to the millions that swell Makkah today. Pilgrims arrived by boat, at Jedda, and came overland, or joined the annual caravans from Syria or Iraq. The city was small. 18th and 19th century maps and pictures show a small walled city of mud-brick houses crowded around the mosque.

Makkah was never the capital of the Islamic empire; the first capital was Medina, some 250 miles (400 km) away. The capital of the caliphate was soon moved to Kufa by the fourth Caliph Ali and then to Damascus by the Ummayads and Baghdad by the Abbasids and then to Cairo after the Mongol invasion, and then at last to Constantinople by the Ottomans.

the Kaaba , Mecca 1937Makkah re-entered Islamic political history briefly when it was held by Abd-Allah ibn al-Zubayr, an early Muslim who opposed the Umayyad caliphs. The caliph Yazid I besieged Makkah in 683. Thereafter the city figured little in politics; it was a city of devotion and scholarship. For centuries it was governed by the Hashemite Sharifs of Mecca, descendants of Muhammad by his grandson Hassan ibn Ali. The Sharifs ruled on behalf of whatever caliph or Muslim ruler had declared himself the Guardian of the Two Shrines. Makkah was attacked and sacked by Ismaili Muslims in 930. In 1926, the Sharifs of Makkah were overthrown by the Saudis, and Makkah was incorporated into Saudi Arabia.

On November 20, 1979 two hundred armed Islamist dissidents led by Saudi preacher Juhayman al-Otaibi seized the Grand Mosque. They claimed that the Saudi royal family no longer represented pure Islam and that the mosque, and the Kaaba, must be held by those of the true faith. The rebels seized tens of thousands of pilgrims as hostages and barricaded themselves in the mosque. The siege lasted two weeks, and resulted in several hundreds deaths and significant damage to the shrine, especially the Safa-Marwa gallery. While it is the Saudi forces that carried out the assault, they were assisted with weapons and planning by a small team of advisors from France's GIGN commando unit.

Current Status
The city has grown substantially in the last several decades, as the convenience and affordability of jet travel has increased the number of pilgrims participating in the Hajj. Thousands of Saudis are employed year-round to oversee the Hajj and staff the hotels and shops that cater to pilgrims; these workers in turn have increased the demand for housing and services. The city is now ringed by freeways, and contains shopping malls and skyscrapers.

SOURCE http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca

Jack

Such claims are controversial and contradicting several other verses of the Quran.

First, subjective.

Second, start a new thread in quran divinity section and mention such contradictions

unknownuser

Peace all,

Nice unverifiable hearsay story but still ZERO authentic evidence of existence of Mecca at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. I can write a better story of existence of Mecca than that if I tried.

What are the original references of this story ?

Any authentic evidence anyone ?

This has been extensively discussed on this forum in the past. One can use the search function.

According to the Qur'n and Muslim traditions, the city was attacked by an Ethiopian Aksumite army led by Abraha in 570, the year of Muhammad's birth. The attack was said to have been repelled by stones dropped by thousands of birds, followed by a plague.

The lie of the century in red above !!

Authentic references please !

Chapter 105 says nothing about Mecca or Kaaba. What 105 is really about according to al-qur'aan has been discussed extensively on this forum. One can use the search function.

According to archeological evidence, there is no mention of Mecca in the expedition of Abraha to South Arabia, and there is no authentic evidence of any "elephants" in that expedition any more than the "flying horse". This also has been discussed extensively on this forum in the past. One can use the search function.

Oh ! one more thing; according to archeological evidence, the expedition of Abraha was around 550 CE, not 570 CE. This also has been discussed extensively on this forum in the past. One can use the search function.

A KNOWLEDGE OF QURANIST -- SUBHANALLAH /MASHALLAH

I AM NOT A QURANIST OR A QUR'AAN ALONER. This is the zillionth time I have stated that on this forum. One can use the search function.

The signs are not just in al-qur'aan but in the horizons and within us also

4153 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?

Leoxyz keeps asking for references but then he comes out and posts LIES and ACCUSATIONS without any authentic proofs or evidences.

2875 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will say "Bring forth your proof." They will then realize that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.

I will request the moderators to issue Leoxyz a warning and take disciplinary action against him for slandering/accusing/insulting me with the label of Quranist and making unsubstantiated claims about al-qur'aan without backing it with evidence.

According to forum rules

2] Please note that this forum is primarily dedicated to the study and understanding of the Scripture (Quran). Thus, mocking it or not being able to back-up claims with specifics will all result in deletion of such posts and/or removal of topic and/or disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.

3] Respect other users of the forum. Language and/or material of vulgarity, obscenity, harassment, profanity or insulting nature, whether it is direct or suggested, will NOT be tolerated. Any messages containing such language or material will be moved to the trash section or deleted, without notice and may result in disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0

Leoxyz