Focal Point
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Salaam brother,
if al masjid al haram is an symbolic institution of obedience, how is a believer to prevent idolators from approaching it?
It appears that you have not read the notes following that translation in the article referenced or maybe you have read it but it is still not clear. In either case, I will try to explain it again.
In my above post, I gave examples of setting oneself towards "al-masjid al-haraam". "Al-masjid al-haraam", according to al-qur'aan, is "THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD". Hence, ANY and ALL truths from our Lord will constitute "al-masjid al-haraam". For example, when one focuses on giving charity to the poor, giving charity to the poor becomes "al-masjid al-haraam" in that context. Similarly, taking care of orphans will become "al-masjid al-haraam" in that context. Being kind to parents, upholding salaat, contributing towards betterment, not killing others except in cause of justice, fulfilling one's pledges, not setting up partners with The God etc. are all "al-masjid al-haraam" in the respective contexts.
Similarly, a government institution which implements obedience to The God's commandments would also be "al-masjid al-haraam", and this institution will hold its sessions in a physical building referred to as "al-bayt al-haraam" in al-qur'aan. In this instance, "al-masjid al-haraam" will be the "qiblatan" in that context, and not "al-bayt al-haraam".
Similar examples are Congress, Senate, House of Representatives, etc. which are not physical buildings but government institutions which hold their sessions in some physical building. The Congress, Senate etc. will be analogous to "al-masjid al-haraam", except that they do not necessarily implement obedience to The God, and the physical building which houses their sessions will be analogous to "al-bayt al-haraam". In the context of 928, "al-masjid al-haraam" implies such a government institution that implements obedience to The God's commandments.
Previously, the idolaters also had a position in such a government institution, most likely because they had political power, and those idolaters would interfere with the proper running of this government institution according to The God's laws, and interfere with or prevent the implementation of The God's laws and thereby turn people away from instituting obedience to The God's commandments. After the revelation of 928, when most likely the believers were in power politically in that local community, the believers were commanded not to let the idolaters even come near or approach such an institution, and not to let the idolaters hold any position in such an institution, where they can exert any negative influence on others by misusing their authority and power.
928 makes it clear that the idolaters should not participate in "al-masjid al-haram" anymore. Here if "al-masjid al-haram" is a physical building then how can one prevent an idolater from entering a physical building ? Anyone can learn a few words like "la ilaha illallaha", meaning "there is no god but The God", or "salaamun alaikum", meaning peace be upon you, and claim to be a submitter, and enter that physical building. Only The God knows what is in the hearts. An idolater, while setting up partners with The God in his heart, can deceive the general public into believing that he is not an idolater by saying certain phrases, thereby being able to enter a physical building without any problem.
The idolaters turn away others from the implementation of obedience to The God and do not implement the obedience to The God themselves. It is not possible to prevent an idolater from entering a physical building, as one does not know what is in the heart, but it is possible to prevent an idolater from participating in a government institution for the implementation of obedience to The God's laws. Hence "al-masjid al-haram" in the context of this sign can only mean a government institution for implementation of obedience to The God's commandments in the "deen", and not a physical building.
One can raise the objection that an idolater can pretend to be a believer and thereby temporarily gain entry into a government institution of obedience to The God's laws also, but it will be impossible for that idolater to keep pretending to be a believer once in that position, and as soon as that idolater tries to interfere with or prevent any implementation of The God's laws, he/she will be exposed immediately and fired. It would be much much easier for an idolater to pretend to be a believer and keep entering a physical building for ever without being caught, because in this case, the idolater will not really have any power or be in a position to implement any governmental laws.
Hope that helps.
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Salaam brother,
It appears that you have not read the notes following that translation in the article referenced or maybe you have read it but it is still not clear. In either case, I will try to explain it again.
In my above post, I gave examples of setting oneself towards "al-masjid al-haraam". "Al-masjid al-haraam", according to al-qur'aan, is "THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD". Hence, ANY and ALL truths from our Lord will constitute "al-masjid al-haraam". For example, when one focuses on giving charity to the poor, giving charity to the poor becomes "al-masjid al-haraam" in that context. Similarly, taking care of orphans will become "al-masjid al-haraam" in that context. Being kind to parents, upholding salaat, contributing towards betterment, not killing others except in cause of justice, fulfilling one's pledges, not setting up partners with The God etc. are all "al-masjid al-haraam" in the respective contexts.
Similarly, a government institution which implements obedience to The God's commandments would also be "al-masjid al-haraam", and this institution will hold its sessions in a physical building by the name of "al-bayt al-haraam". In this instance, "al-masjid al-haraam" will be the "qiblatan" in that context, and not "al-bayt al-haraam".
Similar examples are Congress, Senate, House of Representatives, etc. which are not physical buildings but government institutions which hold their sessions in some physical building. The Congress, Senate etc. will be analogous to "al-masjid al-haraam", except that they do not necessarily implement obedience to The God, and the physical building which houses their sessions will be analogous to "al-bayt al-haraam". In the context of 928, "al-masjid al-haraam" implies such a government institution that implements obedience to The God's commandments.
Previously, the idolaters were also allowed to have a position in such a government institution, and those idolaters would interfere with the proper running of this government institution, and interfere with or prevent the implementation of The God's laws and thereby turn people away from instituting obedience to The God's commandments. Folowing the revelation of 928, once the believers were in power politically in that local community, the believers were commanded not to let the idolaters even come near or approach such an institution, and not to let the idolaters hold any position in such an institution, where they can exert any negative influence on others by misusing their authority and power.
928 makes it clear that the idolaters should not participate in "al-masjid al-haram" anymore. Here if "al-masjid al-haram" is a physical building then how can one prevent an idolater from entering a physical building ? Anyone can learn a few words like "la ilaha illallaha", meaning "there is no god but The God", or "salaamun alaikum", meaning peace be upon you, and claim to be a submitter, and enter that physical building. Only The God knows what is in the hearts. An idolater, while setting up partners with The God in his heart, can deceive the general public into believing that he is not an idolater by saying certain phrases, thereby being able to enter a physical building without any problem.
The idolaters turn away others from the implementation of obedience to The God and do not implement the obedience to The God themselves. It is not possible to prevent an idolater from entering a physical building, as one does not know what is in the heart, but it is possible to prevent an idolater from participating in a government institution for the implementation of obedience to The God's laws. Hence "al-masjid al-haram" in the context of this sign can only mean a government institution for implementation of obedience to The God's commandments in the "deen", and not a physical building.
One can raise the objection that an idolater can pretend to be a believer and thereby temporarily gain entry into a government institution of obedience to The God's laws also, but it will be impossible for that idolater to keep pretending to be a believer once in that position, and as soon as that idolater tries to interfere with or prevent any implementation of The God's laws, he/she will be exposed immediately and fired. It would be much much easier for an idolater to pretend to be a believer and keep entering a physical building for ever without being caught, because in this case, the idolater will not really have any power or be in a position to implement any governmental laws.
Hope that helps.
salam brother Tanveer
perhaps i misunderstood, i thought you were contending that al masjid al haram is a symbolic institution.
from you last post, it seems you are saying it is a real social institution; am i correct?
also, if it were a physical structure or location, it would be straightforward to prevent entry to persons. does a sentry not prevent a person from entering a building?
salam
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Salaam brother,
One of the aspects of "al-masjid al-haraam" is a social institution also, based on obedience to The God's commandments. As I mentioned earlier, "al-masjid al-haraam" is "the truth from our Lord", and will encompass ANY and ALL truths from our Lord. This however, does not mean it can be a physical building as explained above.
Our "qiblatan" is "al-masjid al-haraam", i.e. ALL aspects of "al-masjid al-haraam", including establishing such a social institution in our community.
also, if it were a physical structure or location, it would be straightforward to prevent entry to persons. does a sentry not prevent a person from entering a building?
I have already answered this in my previous post. Perhaps you have not read that part yet ?
928 makes it clear that the idolaters should not participate in "al-masjid al-haram" anymore. Here if "al-masjid al-haram" is a physical building then how can one prevent an idolater from entering a physical building ? Anyone can learn a few words like "la ilaha illallaha", meaning "there is no god but The God", or "salaamun alaikum", meaning peace be upon you, and claim to be a submitter, and enter that physical building. Only The God knows what is in the hearts. An idolater, while setting up partners with The God in his heart, can deceive the general public into believing that he is not an idolater by saying certain phrases, thereby being able to enter a physical building without any problem.
The idolaters turn away others from the implementation of obedience to The God and do not implement the obedience to The God themselves. It is not possible to prevent an idolater from entering a physical building, as one does not know what is in the heart, but it is possible to prevent an idolater from participating in a government institution for the implementation of obedience to The God's laws. Hence "al-masjid al-haram" in the context of this sign can only mean a government institution for implementation of obedience to The God's commandments in the "deen", and not a physical building.
One can raise the objection that an idolater can pretend to be a believer and thereby temporarily gain entry into a government institution of obedience to The God's laws also, but it will be impossible for that idolater to keep pretending to be a believer once in that position, and as soon as that idolater tries to interfere with or prevent any implementation of The God's laws, he/she will be exposed immediately and fired. It would be much much easier for an idolater to pretend to be a believer and keep entering a physical building for ever without being caught, because in this case, the idolater will not really have any power or be in a position to implement any governmental laws.
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Salaam brother,
One of the aspects of "al-masjid al-haraam" is a social institution also, based on obedience to The God's commandments. As I mentioned earlier, "al-masjid al-haraam" is "the truth from our Lord", and will encompass ANY and ALL truths from our Lord. This however, does not mean it can be a physical building as explained above.
Our "qiblatan" is "al-masjid al-haraam", i.e. ALL aspects of "al-masjid al-haraam", including establishing such a social institution in our community.
salam brother Tanveer
please forgive me, i still do not understand your point. is al masjid al haram a social institution?
salam
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Salaam brother,
In my understanding, yes, it is one of the aspects of "al-masjid al-haraam", and the context of 928 refers to this particular aspect.
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Salaam brother,
In my understanding, yes, it is one of the aspects of "al-masjid al-haraam", and the context of 928 refers to this particular aspect.
salam brother
i think i have been totally misconstruing what you have been saying.
i think this idea fundamentally contradicts the message of the Quran.
Allah asks us to seek him directly, but you are suggesting something akin to the Roman Catholic system.
to me, this also seems contradictory to the concept of tawheed.
it also seems that we are being asked to focus on a very complex concept/structure/system which i think negates the whole idea of focus.
i also cannot see how the Messenger would be pleased by Allah asking him to focus on such a concept/structure/system instead of directly on God.
salam
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Salaam brother,
Focusing on "the truth from our Lord" is focusing on The God. "The truth from our Lord" encompasses all aspects of our lives. We have to obey The God's commandments in ALL aspects of our lives, including establishing a social institution based ONLY on The God's laws and commandments, and if that is not focusing on The God, then what is ?
To make "the truth from our Lord" our "qiblatan", we do not need a compass or a geographical direction or a physical map, but all we need is the scripture from The God as mentioned in 2144
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
What does facing a physical building and bowing and prostrating towards a physical building accomplish as far as obedience to The God or focusing on The God is concerned ?
2115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is...................
How can physically facing a physical building be focusing on The God ? How does that promote tawheed ?
How can a physical building be "the truth from our Lord" ?
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Salaam brother,
Focusing on "the truth from our Lord" is focusing on The God. "The truth from our Lord" encompasses all aspects of our lives. We have to obey The God's commandments in ALL aspects of our lives, including establishing a social institution based ONLY on The God's laws and commandments, and if that is not focusing on The God, then what is ?
To make "the truth from our Lord" our "qiblatan", we do not need a compass or a geographical direction or a physical map, but all we need is the scripture from The God as mentioned in 2144
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
What does facing a physical building and bowing and prostrating towards a physical building accomplish as far as obedience to The God or focusing on The God is concerned ?
2115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is...................
How can physically facing a physical building be focusing on The God ? How does that promote tawheed ?
salam brother
this is different to focusing on a concept/structure/system including a social institution.
why not just say focus on the Truth from God, which encompasses a great deal more than your description of al masjid al haram.
also you are saying that the believers are asked to prevent the idolators from approaching al masjid al haram. this is conceivable in the case of a government institution, but how is this possible with a concept.
if you say al masjid al haram is the Truth from God, then asking believers to prevent idolators from approaching this Truth is fundementally contradicting the rest of the Quran, which propounds that it is revealed for all mankind. how are idolators to repent if they are kept away from the Truth?
salam
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Salaam brother,
Making "al-masjid al-haraam" a physical building causes many HUGE contradictions with al-qur'aan, and physical impossibilities.
Can you be kind enough to answer all the questions raised in the following links, and resolve those contradictions ?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg111540#msg111540
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg111637#msg111637
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112157#msg112157
I will appreciate an answer to each of the points raised in those links for a resolution of this issue.
I already showed how in the context of 928, "al-masjid al-haraam" refers to a social institution based on obedience to The God's commandments. How does that contradict al-qur'aan ?
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Salaam brother,
Making "al-masjid al-haraam" a physical building causes many HUGE contradictions with al-qur'aan, and physical impossibilities.
Can you be kind enough to answer all the questions raised in the following links, and resolve those contradictions ?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg111540#msg111540
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg111637#msg111637
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112157#msg112157
I will appreciate an answer to each of the points raised in those links for a resolution of this issue.
I already showed how in the context of 928, "al-masjid al-haraam" refers to a social institution based on obedience to The God's commandments. How does that contradict al-qur'aan ?
salam brother
first, i am not clear at all what al masjid al haram is, and i am not propounding that it is a physical building or otherwise. insha Allah i will read throught these posts and see if i can respond.
whether al masjid al haram is a physical building or not, you still need to address the points in my last post.
salam
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Salaam brother,
We have to determine the exact implication of certain words according to the context of their usage in a particular sign. According to the context of 928, "al-masjid al-haram" refers to a social institution for implementation of obedience to The God's laws and commandments in that sign, and 928 tells us not to let the idolaters be a part of such an institution. It does not mean that we should not let the idolaters approach ALL truths from our Lord.
The social institution for implementation of obedience to The God's laws and commandments is ONE of the truths from our Lord, and according to the context of 928, the idolaters are to be prevented from becoming part of such an institution, because otherwise they will have the power and authority to prevent the implementation of The God's laws in a community, which would be a very serious problem.
Now if you can kindly address the issues raised in the referenced links in my last post please, I will really appreciate it.
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Peace all,
I never claimed that my understanding is the final ultimate truth. Maybe someone can come up with a better understanding of "al-masjid al-haraam" and I will gladly adopt that understanding. One thing, however, that I am quite sure is that it cannot possibly be referring to a physical building.
May The God guide us all to the straight path and the truth and help us in understanding His words properly, and give us patience to arrive at the proper understanding.
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Peace all,
I never claimed that my understanding is the final ultimate truth. Maybe someone can come up with a better understanding of "al-masjid al-haraam" and I will gladly adopt that understanding. One thing, however, that I am quite sure is that it cannot possibly be referring to a physical building.
May The God guide us all to the straight path and the truth and help us in understanding His words properly, and give us patience to arrive at the proper understanding.
salam brother
please accept my sincre apologies if my posts seemed belligerant, they were certainly not intended to be so. i am trying to be objective rather than support any point of view. i only wish to know the Truth.
i am reading through the links in your last but one post, and insha Allah, i shall endeavour to see if i can address them. please bear in mind i have only been studying the Quran for a month and i do not speak arabic, so it may take a while!
as it stands, i still think the points i made in my last but one post (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15074.msg144771#msg144771) refute your notion of al masjid al haram, although they neither prove that al masjid al haram is a physical building, in mecca or otherwise. perhaps someone is yet to suggest the correct meaning of al masjid al haram; i really do not know.
thank you.
salam
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Salaam all,
here are some more Ayat of AlMasjid Alharam
919 Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah. They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. and Allah guides not those who do wrong
4827 Truly did Allah fulfil the vision for His Messenger. ye shall enter the Sacred Mosque, if Allah wills, with minds secure, heads shaved, hair cut short, and without fear. For He knew what ye knew not, and He granted, besides this, a speedy victory.
Of course, they are corrupted!! according to many here.
Hussein
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salam brother hlatif
if you dont mind, when you post english interpretations of verses, could you just put "masjid al haram" instead of any interpretation, as this is what is being debated, so those of us new to the Quran do not get confused.
thank you brother.
salam
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Think "body and mind" (i.e. 2191 physical; 2149-150 mindful).
Peace
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Salaam brother,
The Prophet was a human being and committed some mistakes also, but he did not persist in his mistakes and repented and corrected his actions once the relevant corrective commandments of The God were revealed
11112 So stand straight as you were commanded and those who repented with you and do not transgress. He is watcher over what you do.
"Those who repented WITH YOU" clearly implies that the Prophet also repented. Why did he repent ? Because obviously he must have committed some mistake out of ignorance.
Now coming to the "qiblatan" issue, before the commandment of setting oneself towards "al-masjid al-haraam" was revealed, obviously the believers were focusing on a physical direction. Obviously the Prophet was not happy with that, as it went against his intuitive thinking, and this is apparent from his attempts to shift his face towards the sky in order to try to focus his attention on The God instead of physical objects, because he might have thought that turning his face to the sky to focus on The God was the only direction left that was not really towards a physical object.
Dear Navid
Though I know probably you are not going to answer this question but for "Hujjat" sake I putting this questionYou said
obviously the believers were focusing on a physical
direction.My question
1 What was that physical direction which the believers were focusing ?
2Why did they adopt that direction ? Was it
aProphet PBUH 's commandment
bAllah's commandment
cBeliever's own decision -
I am sorry Ignoramus,
919 Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of Al Masjid Al haram, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah. They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. and Allah guides not those who do wrong
4827 Truly did Allah fulfil the vision for His Messenger. ye shall enter Al Masjid Al haram, if Allah wills, with minds secure, heads shaved, hair cut short, and without fear. For He knew what ye knew not, and He granted, besides this, a speedy victory.
I hope this helps a little and please accept my apologies. I do want to add that a term like Al Masjid Al Haram is pointing to an entity known to those who were addressed by the Qur'an. The reason is that it starts with AL and the AL is used when the entity is known to those who are addressed. This points to needing to know what was that entity that was known to them? and do we have any evidence or counter evidence of it? The only entity that is mentioned from the early works of Islam was that the area around the Kaba was named as such. From the works of the early muslims there is no other alternative that was offered.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
Hussein
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Peace,
The only strange part I found in the verse 4827 is "heads shaved, hair cut short".
But else I found that Br Tanveer's understanding also fit in these verses mentioning Al Masjid Al Haram.
Majidah