To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim

hlatif

Salaam all,

There is no trinity analogy. A person can wake up, eat, sleep, and go to the toilet as a policeman. That does NOT mean that while they are doing those acts, they are policing. Very important distinction to be made. Likewise, when Jonah erred, it does not mean he was acting in his capacity as a messenger.

Wrong analogy. The policeman has a job that is limited by time and place. The messenger's job is 24/7 and for life. There is no where in the Qur'an where God gives a vacation or releases the messenger from his job. The messenger is messaging all the time. Jonah left his job. He walked out on it. That is his error in his own capacity as messenger and a grave error at that.

Your point is moot, he was a "messenger" when he delivered the god's message, and this happened after his rejection. Nowi If at that time, he had transmitted a message contrary to what he was ordered, then we can expect that his "lifeline" would be cut.

Here are the words again
37139 And lo! Jonah verily was of the messengers

37140 When he fled unto the laden ship,

37141 And then drew lots and was of those rejected;

37142 And the fish swallowed him while be was blameworthy;
The messenger Jonah ran away from his job while on his job. What other proof do you guys need that the man erred in his capacity as messenger of God?! Oh, I forgot, running away from the job is allowed because he did not say anything else about God. Nonsense.

How about...Mike, the messnger of the King, and Mike a subject/citizen of the king.

Now ask yourself

Is Mike being a subject/citizen of the king, obliged to obey the messages he transmits to the citizens for the king?

Thus does mike the citizen/subject obey the king and the messenger?

Yes he does. This is how
1- Mike obeys the rules of the king.
2- Any rules that fall within "obey the messenger" but not necessarily "obey the king", then he will also abide by them as well as impose them on others. This is actually what the messenger Muhammad (pbuh) did exactly. He never imposed his rules on others. He imposed them on himself first.

Z There is no mention of "Hill" at all in the verse. Secondly, the verse is describing a situation which had occured with a particular group, specifically a group that had ignored the god/the messenger's(messages) promise of victory, both in this life and the afterlife. BEing such, the order still stands.

You just proved Samia wrong. This is what she wrote before

because somewhere else in the qur'aan the obedience to the messenger is obligatory and absolute

this was her point that when an order is given by the prophet then it is not obligatory nor absolute, but when it is given by the messenger it has to be obligatory and absolute to all people and at all times. Here is a messenger giving order to a particular group limited by time and space. This alleged point of distinction between prophet and messenger as presented by Samia, is then false and incorrect.

Take care all.

Hussein

Samia

Salaam all,

Samia,totally wrong. The obedience is determined by the context of the verse and the context determines who is addressed and who is not. Who is covered by the order and who is not. It is not Prophet vs messenger.

Salaam haltif

You're just going in circles. The context determines who is addressed and who is not based on the gender.. Can you say here that any female is addressed or any male is excluded?

Here is an order from the messenger that is totally limited to time, place and group of people, not even gender

3153 When ye climbed (the hill) and paid no heed to anyone, while the messenger, in your rear, was calling you (to fight). Therefore He rewarded you grief for (his) grief, that (He might teach) you not to sorrow either for that which ye missed or for that which befell you. Allah is Informed of what ye do.

This is the problem of limiting the quraan to "purpose/reason of revelation" and missing the main point/the message

If you are truthful, then you will need to go ahead and climb somewhere "because the order of the messenger is absolute" according to your theory.

No. This is what I will follow "not to sorrow either for that which ye missed or for that which befell you. Allah is Informed of what ye do."

Zidane

Dear brother Hussein,

Thanks for your polite responses too.

I came to reply quite late and many fellow forum members already answered it very well and with many points I didn't know, especially about Jonah - thanks for raising the verse. As for me, I would probably be only repeating if I replied again.

I now see the problem is that what is obvious to me isn't obvious to you, and what is obvious to you isn't obvious to me. I respect your right to see the same thing in a different way.

Take care & have a great day too.

May God Guide & Bless.

warner

Salaam Hussein

Take a look at this verse

3 41

Pickthall He said My Lord! Appoint a token for me. (The angel) said The token unto thee (shall be) that thou shalt not speak unto mankind three days except by signs. Remember thy Lord much, and praise (Him) in the early hours of night and morning.

Transliteration Qa_la rabbij'al li a_yah(tan), qa_la a_yatuka alla_ tukalliman na_sa sala_sata ayya_min illa_ ramza_(n), wazkur rabbaka kasiraw wa sabbih bil'asyiyyi wal ibka_r(i).

This clearly shows ?sign language? is a sub set of kalam/tukalliman. So Kalam does not have to be solely spoken word.

ayman

3- Hadeeth Qudsi is speech in the words of the prophet related to God. Very much as the Qur'an speaks God's related to Moses and whoever, even Satan.

So this Hadith Qudsi crap that insults the god is "speech in the words of the prophet related to God. Very much as the Qur'an speaks God's related to Moses and whoever, even Satan." !!!!

But hey, no Sunni cares what it says, as long as Bukhari said it. Fortunately, no reasonable person can just dip a fly and eat this crap!

Peace,

Ayman

hlatif

Salaam all,

Hlatif
If you are truthful, then you will need to go ahead and climb somewhere "because the order of the messenger is absolute" according to your theory.

Samia
No. This is what I will follow "not to sorrow either for that which ye missed or for that which befell you. Allah is Informed of what ye do."

That would be partially obeying and partially obeying is rejecting the other part which included climbing upwards. Where is the absolute business that you claimed before? Also, the fact that the order clearly was limited to that particular time and group (without needing to know further) also removes your absolutely "obeying the messenger" myth, which you have invented to support the false prophet vs messenger business.

Warner, La tukallima annasa illa ramza does not have to mean sign language only. It can also mean speaking with your lips but not making sounds. It is still spoken words but without sound and the spoken words are then seen but not heard. This same phrase means that spoken words are supposed to be heard unless indicated as in this Aya.

Zidane thanks again for your kindness.

Take care all and have a good night.

Hussein

zeljko67

Peace Hussein,

Here are the words again
37139 And lo! Jonah verily was of the messengers

37140 When he fled unto the laden ship,

37141 And then drew lots and was of those rejected;

37142 And the fish swallowed him while be was blameworthy;
The messenger Jonah ran away from his job while on his job. What other proof do you guys need that the man erred in his capacity as messenger of God?! Oh, I forgot, running away from the job is allowed because he did not say anything else about God. Nonsense.

Z You really can't be serious...In verse 37139, the god (via the messenger) is stating as a matter of FACTLY that Jonah was of the "messengers", then in verse 37140 the god (via the messenger) recaps the story of Jonah...

Jonah was a rejector who wa punished, then prayed to the god and asked for forgiveness and then became a "messenger" delivering god's words to the people of ninevah, thus is the story of how Jonah became of the messengers.

Yes he does. This is how
1- Mike obeys the rules of the king.
2- Any rules that fall within "obey the messenger" but not necessarily "obey the king", then he will also abide by them as well as impose them on others. This is actually what the messenger Muhammad (pbuh) did exactly. He never imposed his rules on others. He imposed them on himself first.

Z Excuse me Hussein, but it seems you are becoming a bit desperate.. All rules that pertain to "obey the messenger" by default fall under "obey the king" since the position of Messenger is a position given to mike by the king for the sole purpose of delivering the king's message.

Please stick with the analogy. For it will clarify for you verse 469 and in particular how the Prophet Muhammad(citizen) obeyed the Messenger Muhammad. Best of all, we don't have to involve the silly analogy of the trinity.

You just proved Samia wrong. This is what she wrote before

because somewhere else in the qur'aan the obedience to the messenger is obligatory and absolute
this was her point that when an order is given by the prophet then it is not obligatory nor absolute, but when it is given by the messenger it has to be obligatory and absolute to all people and at all times. Here is a messenger giving order to a particular group limited by time and space. This alleged point of distinction between prophet and messenger as presented by Samia, is then false and incorrect.

Z No where in verse 3153 is the messenger giving an order to a particular group. The order was already given in the god's book, that order being that god will grant victory to the believers, and as such some will grow haughty and leave the messenger behind calling from the rear reminding them of this previos order.

Once you remove the hadithic filter from you eyes hussein the verses will(or might) become "self-evident". But as of now, you only see "hills".

Peace

Leoxyz

Z Excuse me Hussein, but it seems you are becoming a bit desperate.. All rules that pertain to "obey the messenger" by default fall under "obey the king" since the position of Messenger is a position given to mike by the king for the sole purpose of delivering the king's message.

Dear
Holy prophet's obedience is not that of a King rather it is obedience of "Rasool".Allah has never said "Obey Muhammad" rather "Obey the Rasool".

Can you prove that Allah appointed the prophet PBUH as a "King?

Allah also decreed that in the "Rasool" there is EXAMPLE " for you.

3321
21. Indeed in the Messenger of All?h (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) All?h and the Last Day and remembers All?h much.

unknownuser

Dear
Holy prophet's obedience is not that of a King rather it is obedience of "Rasool".Allah has never said "Obey Muhammad" rather "Obey the Rasool".

Can you prove that Allah appointed the prophet PBUH as a "King?

Allah also decreed that in the "Rasool" there is EXAMPLE " for you.

3321
21. Indeed in the Messenger of All?h (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) All?h and the Last Day and remembers All?h much.

Right! The above verse utterly shatters this argument...

The messenger Jonah ran away from his job while on his job. What other proof do you guys need that the man erred in his capacity as messenger of God?! Oh, I forgot, running away from the job is allowed because he did not say anything else about God. Nonsense.

In addition, The Messenger can never be accused of doing this bad example...

Surah 80. He Frowned!

(The Prophet) frowned and turned away,
Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?-
Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?
As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,
To him dost thou attend;
Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding).
But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,
And with fear (in his heart),
Of him wast thou unmindful.
By no means (should it be so)! For it is indeed a Message of instruction
Therefore let whoso will, keep it in remembrance.
(It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,
Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,
(Written) by the hands of scribes-

CLEARLY -- The Message of instruction is Qur'an alone!

Peace

Leoxyz

Right! The above verse utterly shatters this argument...

In addition, The Messenger can never be accused of doing this bad example...

Surah 80. He Frowned!

(The Prophet) frowned and turned away,
Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).

Peace

Actual Aya is
801
(801) He frowned and turned away

Which word you have translated as "the prophet"? in parenthesis
Waiting for your guidance.

unknownuser

Actual Aya is
801
(801) He frowned and turned away

Which word you have translated as "the prophet"? in parenthesis
Waiting for your guidance.

The same word you have translated/inferred in parenthesis below ...

3321
21. Indeed in the Messenger of All?h (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) All?h and the Last Day and remembers All?h much.

warner

Warner, La tukallima annasa illa ramza does not have to mean sign language only. It can also mean speaking with your lips but not making sounds. It is still spoken words but without sound and the spoken words are then seen but not heard. This same phrase means that spoken words are supposed to be heard unless indicated as in this Aya.

Salaam Hussein

So by your definition Kalam has to be spoken words (even silently) and it should necessarily come out of the mouth and the lips. Do you seriously believe these human attributes about Allah .

Leoxyz

The same word you have translated/inferred in parenthesis below ...

Why do you dare tamper the Quran and accuse Almighty Allah and Quran
You tried to cheat the people by wrong translation.
When you do not know ABC of Arabic ,why do you practice on the Holy Quran.
Open a wander's shop and try to run it.
Quran translation is beyond your capacity dear.
In the Word "Abasa" how did you put " the Prophet"

That is Quran decreed 1400 yrs ago.
7179
(7179) And certainly We have created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind; *140 they have hearts with which they fail to understand; and they have eyes with which they fail to see; and they have cars with which they fail to hear. They are like cattle - indeed, even more astray. Such are utterly heedless

Ispite of you all your efforts Message for Quran Tamperer
933
(933) He is Allah Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Right way so that He may make it prevail over all other ways, *32 even though the mushriks be much averse to it.

332
(332) Say 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger.' If they turn away from this then know that Allah does not love those who refuse to obey Him and His Messenger.

3132
(3132) And obey Allah and the Messenger, that you may be shown mercy.

459
(459) Believers! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those from among you who are invested with authority; and then if you were to dispute among yourselves about anything refer it to Allah and the Messenger *89 if you indeed believe in Allah and the Last Day; that is better and more commendable in the end.

2454
(2454) Say, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, you should note it well that the Messenger is responsible for the duty entrusted to him and you are responsible for the duty entrusted to you. If you obey him, you will be rightly guided, for the responsibility of the Messenger is only to convey the Message clearly to you.

469
(469) And he who obeys Allah and the Messenger -they shall be with those whom Allah has favoured -the Prophets, those steadfast in truthfulness *99, the martyrs, and the righteous." How excellent will they be for companions!

464
(464) (And tell them that) We never sent a Messenger but that he should be obeyed by the leave of Allah. *94 If whenever they wronged themselves they had come to you praying to Allah for forgiveness, and had the Messenger prayed for their forgiveness, they would indeed have found Allah All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate

480
(480) He who obeys the Messenger thereby obeys Allah; as for he who turns away, We have not sent you as a keeper over them!
414
(414) And he who disobeys Allah and His Messenger and transgresses the bounds set by Him - him shall Allah cause to enter the Fire. There he will abide. A humiliating chastisement awaits him.

3336
(3336) It *65 does not behove a believing man and a believing woman that when Allah and His Messenger have given their decision in a matter, they should exercise an option in that matter of theirs; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Prophet, has indeed strayed into manifest error

7223
(7223) My mission is only to convey what I receive from Him and His messages. *22 Now whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger for him awaits the fire of Hell such people shall dwell in it for ever.

813
(813) This is because they defied Allah and His Messenger. Whoever defies Allah and His Messenger must know that Allah is severe in punishment.

963
(963) Do they not know that whoso opposes Allah and His Messenger shall have the Fire of Hell for him wherein he shall abide for ever? This is a great ignominy.

2456
(2456) Therefore, establish Salat, pay the Zakat dues and obey the Messenger; it is expected that you will be shown mercy

4115
(4115) As for him who sets himself against the Messenger and follows a path other than that of the believers even after true guidance had become clear to him, We will let him go to the way he has turned to, *143 and We will cast him into Hell - an evil destination.

533
(533) He does not speak of his own desire;

534
(534) it is but a Revelation which is sent down to him

331
(331) (O Messenger!) Tell people 'If you indeed love Allah, follow me, and Allah will love you and will forgive you your sins. Allah is All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate.'

332
(332) Say 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger.' If they turn away from this then know that Allah does not love those who refuse to obey Him and His Messenger. *28

3164
(3164) Surely Allah conferred a great favour on the believers when He raised from among them a Messenger to recite to them His signs, and to purify them, and to teach them the Book and Wisdom. For before that they were in manifest error.
4113
(4113) (O Messenger!) But for Allah's favour and mercy upon you, a party of them had resolved to mislead you,yet they only misled them selves, and could not have harmed you in any way. *142 Allah revealed to you the Book and Wisdom, and He taught you what you knew not. Great indeed has been Allah's favour upon you.
3321

Samia

Why do you dare tamper the Quran and accuse Almighty Allah and Quran
You tried to cheat the people by wrong translation.
When you do not know ABC of Arabic ,why do you practice on the Holy Quran.
Open a wander's shop and try to run it.
Quran translation is beyond your capacity dear.
In the Word "Abasa" how did you put " the Prophet"

Why are you so angry if Nun understands that "He frowned" as "The prophet frowned"? Where is this tampering?

I, for sometime, did not take it as necessarily about the prophet, but this was my own understanding. If you still understand that it is not about the prophet, just make your point so people learn or refute it.

And, don't frown onto people who want to learn. This is the most important lesson about this verse, whether it is about the prophet or an anonymous "he".

unknownuser

Waiting for your guidance.

Why do you dare tamper the Quran and accuse Almighty Allah and Quran
You tried to cheat the people by wrong translation.
When you do not know ABC of Arabic ,why do you practice on the Holy Quran.
Open a wander's shop and try to run it.
Quran translation is beyond your capacity dear.
In the Word "Abasa" how did you put " the Prophet"

Who Yusuf Ali?

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/80/80_1.htm
English (Yusuf Ali)
801 (The Prophet) frowned and turned away,

Another lesson for you in common sense and logic.

To whom was Qur?an given?

To whom does God speak to directly in Qur?an?

See verses 3340, 472, 806, and use ?al-brain? to put it all together.

Transitive Property of Equality if a = b and b = c, then a = c

Qur'an is for people of intelligence!

Lastly, it is polite to thank people when they give you guidance.

Leoxyz

Why are you so angry if Nun understands that "He frowned" as "The prophet frowned"? Where is this tampering?

I, for sometime, did not take it as necessarily about the prophet, but this was my own understanding. If you still understand that it is not about the prophet, just make your point so people learn or refute it.

And, don't frown onto people who want to learn. This is the most important lesson about this verse, whether it is about the prophet or an anonymous "he".

You people add your own words to the Quran.
What is meant by "abasa"???
Tell me where Prophet comes in?
The cheating as the "mufassarins are doing
I hate Quran cheaters

You said

Why are you so angry if Nun understands that "He frowned" as "The prophet frowned"? Where is this tampering?

Subhanallah
He frowned = The Prophet frowned =Samia frowned
Mashallah
No surprise .if you can translate Quranic aya according to weather of the day ,you can do/say this also

Leoxyz

Who Yusuf Ali?

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/80/80_1.htm
English (Yusuf Ali)
801 (The Prophet) frowned and turned away,

Another lesson for you in common sense and logic.

To whom was Qur?an given?

To whom does God speak to directly in Qur?an?

See verses 3340, 472, 806, and use ?al-brain? to put it all together.

Transitive Property of Equality if a = b and b = c, then a = c

Qur'an is for people of intelligence!

Lastly, it is polite to thank people when they give you guidance.

I hate anyone who is Quran Tamperer.No matter who he is.
I only Believe in Quran .Yousaf Ali may be your "GOD" not mine.
Why do you people depend on others.Don't you have common sense or brain.Try to depend on yourself

Try to use your brain also.
The word is "abasa" (He frowned)
Had it been the Holy prophet .Allah might have said 'Abasta"= you frowned.
You and Samia are putting blame on Allah and Quran
ABSOLUTE QURAN TAMPERING.

unknownuser

I hate anyone who is Quran Tamperer.No matter who he is.
I only Believe in Quran .Yousaf Ali may be your "GOD" not mine.
Why do you people depend on others.Don't you have common sense or brain.Try to depend on yourself

Try to use your brain also.
The word is "abasa" (He frowned)
Had it been the Holy prophet .Allah might have said 'Abasta"= you frowned.
You and Samia are putting blame on Allah and Quran
ABSOLUTE QURAN TAMPERING.

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/47/47_2.htm
English (Yusuf Ali)
472 But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.

Surah 80. He Frowned!

(The Prophet) frowned and turned away,
Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?-
Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?
As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,
To him dost thou attend;
Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding).
But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,
And with fear (in his heart),
Of him wast thou unmindful.
By no means (should it be so)! For it is indeed a Message of instruction
Therefore let whoso will, keep it in remembrance.
(It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,
Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,
(Written) by the hands of scribes-

Use AL-BRAIN!

Samia

Try to use your brain also.
The word is "abasa" (He frowned)

Had it been the Holy prophet .Allah might have said 'Abasta"= you frowned.

You and Samia are putting blame on Allah and Quran
ABSOLUTE QURAN TAMPERING.

As I always advise you to be quiet and don't hasten. That is not good for the process of thinking which, in your case, is switched off by this haste of yours. Go on reading this chapter

But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?
Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?
As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,
To him dost thou attend;
Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding).
But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,
And with fear (in his heart),
Of him wast thou unmindful.

All underlined words mean "you". Who is "you"?
According to you,

Had it been the Holy prophet .Allah might have said 'Abasta"= you frowned

Or is the verse addressing two different persons he "abasa" and you "the following verses"?

Leoxyz

As I always advise you to be quiet and don't hasten. That is not good for the process of thinking which, in your case, is switched off by this haste of yours. Go on reading this chapter

But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?
Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?
As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,
To him dost thou attend;
Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding).
But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,
And with fear (in his heart),
Of him wast thou unmindful.

All underlined words mean "you". Who is "you"?
According to you,
Or is the verse addressing two different persons he "abasa" and you "the following verses"?

Who are you to add yourself to the Holy Quran .It has used third person singular verb.
Do you know arabic
No one is named.The verb is "abasa"
Tranlate and pull out" Prophet "out of this verb.
I tell you your efforts to Tamper the Quran will never be successful inshallah.
Islam will remain dominant inspite of your efforts.Allah Himself has promised to Protect it.No matter how much Anti Quran people may try.