Hell
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2074, please say what state someone is if they are neither alive, nor dead.
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There is physical proof that a place resembling hell exists, in fact, the universe is littered with these Hells. Go outside at night and you can see millions and millions and milllions of hells. There is zero evidence of anything after death, in any case.
Personally, I see this thread, like someone already stated, as an attempt to justify disbelief in God, and nothing more. How does the existance/non-existance of hell affect your ability to do good works? It doesn't.
- What?
- Yes, there's physical proof that something resembling the literal interpretation of the description of hell exists. But even then, you can't put a body inside the sun and torture it for a second let alone an eternity. So you can't argue this from a scientific perspective.
Yes, there's zero evidence. So we can't really know what will happen. All we have are guesses.
If this thread is an attempt to justify disbelief in God, it is a pretty good one.
If you are going to argue that god is just and merciful, you can't possibly believe that there is an eternal hell where the loving and just and merciful god will torture you in creative ways for eternity.
The existence of hell SHOULDN'T affect our ability to do good works...but it seems that the only reason the idea exists is because it does affect people.
peace -
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If you are going to argue that god is just and merciful, you can't possibly believe that there is an eternal hell where the loving and just and merciful god will torture you in creative ways for eternity.
You're still asking this tired question? I thought I answered it pages ago?peace
I think that if god is merciful, god cannot put anyone in hell for eternity (taking eternity to mean "forever". That is an obvious contradiction.God is Merciful. He only puts us where we ask to go. No contradiction there. Now eternity or forever, I don't know about that.
Peace
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I can't remember how many times I have asked a question and just got another question in reply - usually asking me to define something.
The funny thing is that you are only interested in my answer so you can tell me it is wrong.
So let us cut to the chase.Let's assume I don't know what it means - please go ahead and tell me what Kafir means.
And explain to me how that makes torturing them any better?
So you also noticed this modus operandi.
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peace Zenje,
You are saying that God is merciful, yet he puts people in hell for eternity? Do you think it is for eternity or just a little while? If it is for eternity, then there is an obvious contradiction in what you're saying.
For god to be merciful, god must show mercy, which means god must forgive or pardon the sins of the offenders, or at least reduce their punishment.
Putting them in hell (especially for eternity) is not compassionate or merciful.
It may be fair and just or whatever, but it can't be merciful. -
For god to be merciful, god must show mercy, which means god must forgive or pardon the sins of the offenders, or at least reduce their punishment.
What do you think God's doing right now? Forgiving, pardoning, giving more chances than you can count. We have the ability not only to 'reduce our sentences', but to eliminate them altogether.
Peace
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The Quran uses different words for heaven and hell to describe their longevity, correct? As in "jannati adneen" vs "al-khuldi". Does it do this throughout?
Oh, anyway, http//19.org/index.php?id=14,176,0,0,1,0
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What do you think God's doing right now? Forgiving, pardoning, giving more chances than you can count. We have the ability not only to 'reduce our sentences', but to eliminate them altogether.
Peace
Yes, but "WE" have the ability. Where exactly does God factor into this?
If the equation is, good=good and bad=bad, where is the mercy and compassion?
Well, that problem is sort of solved (kinda) if you say that all of our bad deeds will go unpunished in this life, if you say there's only reward and punishment after life. But, why does the mercy stop there? Why does god need to put us in hell, not just to teach us a lesson, but for eternity. That is not punishment, that is revenge.
If hell was only for a short while, just to teach us the lesson of consequences, then you would have an argument. I still don't think fear of hell is how a loving God would motivate his subjects, but then at least it would have a purpose other than revenge. -
Yes, but "WE" have the ability. Where exactly does God factor into this?
If the equation is, good=good and bad=bad, where is the mercy and compassion?
Well, that problem is sort of solved (kinda) if you say that all of our bad deeds will go unpunished in this life, if you say there's only reward and punishment after life. But, why does the mercy stop there? Why does god need to put us in hell, not just to teach us a lesson, but for eternity. That is not punishment, that is revenge.
If hell was only for a short while, just to teach us the lesson of consequences, then you would have an argument. I still don't think fear of hell is how a loving God would motivate his subjects, but then at least it would have a purpose other than revenge.I think you should take a look at the article bro OPF posted
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Peace Lobster,
Yes, but "WE" have the ability. Where exactly does God factor into this?
Without God, there is no "WE"... there is no ability... there is nothing.
If the equation is, good=good and bad=bad, where is the mercy and compassion?
What if the equation was good=bad, would it be merciful then? You understand that on top of that, bad can still turn into good, right?... more chances than we can count, bro, more than our little brains can comprehend.- And He gave you all that you have asked Him. And if you were to count God?s blessings, you will never fathom them. The human is indeed transgressing, disbelieving.
Why does god need to put us in hell...
The God does not 'need', we do. Some want to go to hell, and so there, they will end.That is not punishment, that is revenge.
How? When we only get what we asked for? Like a moth to a flame...I still don't think fear of hell is how a loving God would motivate his subjects, but then at least it would have a purpose other than revenge.
The lessons have been taught, over and over and over again (more than we can count). One chooses to learn from them or discard them. And, what fear?...-
?O My servants, you will have no fear on this Day, nor will you grieve.?
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No; whosoever submits himself to God, while doing good, he will have his reward with his Lord. There will be no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
Sounds like you're worried a bit there, ol' pal. -\
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Beace,
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12388.0
I agree more with Arnold's interpretation of hell and heaven.Zenje,
So we end up where we want to end up? But how do people WANT to end up in hell when they can't know about it?
What I've learned through experience is that when I do something bad, I feel bad, when I do something good, I feel good. I believe the key to happiness is doing good things. But in 18 years at this job, I have never seen any evidence of life after death. The only places it is mentioned is in scriptures like the Quran and Bible. Shouldn't there be some sign in this world about eternal hell, if it exists?
I guess it would be fair if people could know about it without any doubt. Most people "believe" in an after life, but don't really believe in it, which is why it doesn't affect their actions at all.
Reading something in a book, even if it is over and over again, is not a substitute for actually seeing something.I agree we get a lot of chances in this life. An infinite amount. As many as we like. That's mercy.
If we are in a "bad" state, we feel bad, and the only way to get out of it is to change ourselves. So unbelievers are always in hell, because if they aren't in hell, they aren't unbelievers.
That's why I believe god is merciful, because if we decide to change ourselves, god changes our condition.
But all of this falls apart if we take hell to be eternal.
Because as long as it is temporary, as I believe it is, it has a purpose. That purpose is to make us realize that we aren't on the right track, that we need to change ourselves.
When you make it eternal, it loses that purpose, and it becomes punishment just for the sake of it.and there is fear in the Quran. Every few verses there is a description of what will happen to people in hell, and it's equally scary every time. I don't have a problem with it telling us how it is, but it is the constant repitition that gets to me. Why is the quran pounding this fear of hell into us?
And doesn't the quran tell us to "Fear Allah?" What does that mean?And I totally don't get Edip Yuksel's logic, but I understood his conclusion to be that Hell is not eternal, but it is a place faulty programs go to be fixed...is that correct Navid, OPF?
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Look at the wording difference. Jannat can only be described as eternal, but a different word is used for hell, which indicates longevity, as far as I see.
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11106 As for those who are distraught, they will be in the Fire; in it for them is a sighing and a wailing.
11107 They will abide in it as long as the heavens and Earth exist, except for what your Lord wishes. Your Lord does as He pleases.
11108 As for those who are fortunate, they will be in Paradise; in it they will abide as long as the heavens and Earth exist, except for what your Lord wishes, a giving without end. -
You... have no problem with HUMANS prosecuting and punishing people for there ENTIRE life in jail. Yet you have a problem with GOD doing the same? This is illogical.
I have no problem with God doing the same thing.
But he doesn't.
God tortures people.
What's more he tortures people who don't believe in him.
If any human tortured people for disbelief in God I would be against it.
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I have no problem with God doing the same thing.
But he doesn't.
God tortures people.
What's more he tortures people who don't believe in him.
If any human tortured people for disbelief in God I would be against it.
You have the right to like/dislike this torture (it is human nature, in any case), but can you please explain how it impacts your life now? In other words, how does God saying he will "torture" people who deserve it in the afterlife affect your actions in this life?
408, 5331, and others can set it into perspective. The torture is purely what they have earned. Don't attribute to God something you yourself would not do in the capacity of being merciful.