Hell
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Peace Lobster,
Yes, but "WE" have the ability. Where exactly does God factor into this?
Without God, there is no "WE"... there is no ability... there is nothing.
If the equation is, good=good and bad=bad, where is the mercy and compassion?
What if the equation was good=bad, would it be merciful then? You understand that on top of that, bad can still turn into good, right?... more chances than we can count, bro, more than our little brains can comprehend.- And He gave you all that you have asked Him. And if you were to count God?s blessings, you will never fathom them. The human is indeed transgressing, disbelieving.
Why does god need to put us in hell...
The God does not 'need', we do. Some want to go to hell, and so there, they will end.That is not punishment, that is revenge.
How? When we only get what we asked for? Like a moth to a flame...I still don't think fear of hell is how a loving God would motivate his subjects, but then at least it would have a purpose other than revenge.
The lessons have been taught, over and over and over again (more than we can count). One chooses to learn from them or discard them. And, what fear?...-
?O My servants, you will have no fear on this Day, nor will you grieve.?
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No; whosoever submits himself to God, while doing good, he will have his reward with his Lord. There will be no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
Sounds like you're worried a bit there, ol' pal. -\
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Beace,
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12388.0
I agree more with Arnold's interpretation of hell and heaven.Zenje,
So we end up where we want to end up? But how do people WANT to end up in hell when they can't know about it?
What I've learned through experience is that when I do something bad, I feel bad, when I do something good, I feel good. I believe the key to happiness is doing good things. But in 18 years at this job, I have never seen any evidence of life after death. The only places it is mentioned is in scriptures like the Quran and Bible. Shouldn't there be some sign in this world about eternal hell, if it exists?
I guess it would be fair if people could know about it without any doubt. Most people "believe" in an after life, but don't really believe in it, which is why it doesn't affect their actions at all.
Reading something in a book, even if it is over and over again, is not a substitute for actually seeing something.I agree we get a lot of chances in this life. An infinite amount. As many as we like. That's mercy.
If we are in a "bad" state, we feel bad, and the only way to get out of it is to change ourselves. So unbelievers are always in hell, because if they aren't in hell, they aren't unbelievers.
That's why I believe god is merciful, because if we decide to change ourselves, god changes our condition.
But all of this falls apart if we take hell to be eternal.
Because as long as it is temporary, as I believe it is, it has a purpose. That purpose is to make us realize that we aren't on the right track, that we need to change ourselves.
When you make it eternal, it loses that purpose, and it becomes punishment just for the sake of it.and there is fear in the Quran. Every few verses there is a description of what will happen to people in hell, and it's equally scary every time. I don't have a problem with it telling us how it is, but it is the constant repitition that gets to me. Why is the quran pounding this fear of hell into us?
And doesn't the quran tell us to "Fear Allah?" What does that mean?And I totally don't get Edip Yuksel's logic, but I understood his conclusion to be that Hell is not eternal, but it is a place faulty programs go to be fixed...is that correct Navid, OPF?
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Look at the wording difference. Jannat can only be described as eternal, but a different word is used for hell, which indicates longevity, as far as I see.
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11106 As for those who are distraught, they will be in the Fire; in it for them is a sighing and a wailing.
11107 They will abide in it as long as the heavens and Earth exist, except for what your Lord wishes. Your Lord does as He pleases.
11108 As for those who are fortunate, they will be in Paradise; in it they will abide as long as the heavens and Earth exist, except for what your Lord wishes, a giving without end. -
You... have no problem with HUMANS prosecuting and punishing people for there ENTIRE life in jail. Yet you have a problem with GOD doing the same? This is illogical.
I have no problem with God doing the same thing.
But he doesn't.
God tortures people.
What's more he tortures people who don't believe in him.
If any human tortured people for disbelief in God I would be against it.
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I have no problem with God doing the same thing.
But he doesn't.
God tortures people.
What's more he tortures people who don't believe in him.
If any human tortured people for disbelief in God I would be against it.
You have the right to like/dislike this torture (it is human nature, in any case), but can you please explain how it impacts your life now? In other words, how does God saying he will "torture" people who deserve it in the afterlife affect your actions in this life?
408, 5331, and others can set it into perspective. The torture is purely what they have earned. Don't attribute to God something you yourself would not do in the capacity of being merciful.
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Peace Lobster,
But in 18 years at this job, I have never seen any evidence of life after death.
You can live 180 years and you won't 'see' evidence of life after death. For that you have to die.I guess it would be fair if people could know about it without any doubt.
Those who believe have no doubt.I agree we get a lot of chances in this life. An infinite amount. As many as we like. That's mercy.
If we are in a "bad" state, we feel bad, and the only way to get out of it is to change ourselves. So unbelievers are always in hell, because if they aren't in hell, they aren't unbelievers.
That's why I believe god is merciful, because if we decide to change ourselves, god changes our condition.
I have no problem with that reasoning.and there is fear in the Quran. Every few verses there is a description of what will happen to people in hell, and it's equally scary every time. I don't have a problem with it telling us how it is, but it is the constant repitition that gets to me. Why is the quran pounding this fear of hell into us?
That means it's done it's job, i.e. being a reminder. Hell is not a pretty place to be, there's no use sitting and being afraid of it.I spoke to a lady one the phone today... she said her name was Heaven.
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I reckon you've got proof for this claim
Have you read the a book called the Qur'an?
Here's just a couple of verses
As for those who reject Our Signs, We will roast them in a Fire. Every time their skins are burned off, We will replace them with new skins so that they can taste the punishment. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise.
As for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured over their heads, melting that which is in their bellies and their skins too, and for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape they are driven back therein and (it will be said) Taste the doom of burning
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You have the right to like/dislike this torture (it is human nature, in any case), but can you please explain how it impacts your life now?
It affects my decision whether or not to believe that the Qur'an is the word of God.
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It affects my decision whether or not to believe that the Qur'an is the word of God.
Is it simply the supposed contradiction between "merciful" and "eternal hell" or anything else?
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Is it simply the supposed contradiction between "merciful" and "eternal hell" or anything else?
Other things too.
But they are not the subject of this thread.
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So if the quran said everyone was going to heaven and the world is a very happy place, would you be more inclined to believe it is from God?
Just asking. Personally, I think we should primarily look at objective, empirical evidence as opposed to personal desires and what doesn't sound appealing to us.
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So if the quran said everyone was going to heaven and the world is a very happy place, would you be more inclined to believe it is from God?
Just asking. Personally, I think we should primarily look at objective, empirical evidence as opposed to personal desires and what doesn't sound appealing to us.
If it said that I suspect I wouldn't have had so much problem believing - but don't know for sure.
What are the objective reasons for believing that the Qur'an is the word of God?
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If it said that I suspect I wouldn't have had so much problem believing - but don't know for sure.
What are the objective reasons for believing that the Qur'an is the word of God?
Oh alright
There are plenty. Here are a few http//www.quran.org/code/allmmlh.htm
If you click on "Quran and Science" and look at the pull down menu on the top right, there are a lot more as well.
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What are the objective reasons for believing that the Qur'an is the word of God?
NONE whatsoever! -
NONE whatsoever!
Salams
An honest question to Genteel and CosmicDancer
If you are convinced that Quran is not a word of God then what are you doing on this forum?
There are two kinds of people in this forum
- those who are convinced that Quran is the word of God and wish to explore Quran.
- those who want to find out if Quran is the word of God or not.
Those who are convinced that it is not the word of God spend their time elsewhere; unless they know deep down that they are wrong.
Also how would you explain the word count miracle? Is the word count miracle a deception? Or was Mohammad super super smart to hide this mirale himself in Quran?
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Oh alright
There are plenty. Here are a few http//www.quran.org/code/allmmlh.htm
If you click on "Quran and Science" and look at the pull down menu on the top right, there are a lot more as well.
What if you discovered these "Mathematical Miracles" were false?
The first one on that link says "The word a day (yewm) is used 365 times in the Quran."
What if you discovered that this was not true.
Is your belief in the Qur'an based on these mathematical miracles?
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NONE whatsoever!