Hell
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So you agree when human beings torture other people for their deeds? So you support torture under the correct circumstances right?
No. I am completely against anyone torturing anyone.
I said I have no problem if God punished criminals the same way we do here on earth. (i.e imprisonment NOT torture.)
So if God imprisoned murderers and rapists - or even executed them as they do in the USA - I wouldn't complain.
But God doesn't do that does He?
God tortures them - forever! (or a long time according to those who interpret it to mean that)
And if God was only torturing murderers and rapists and other serious criminals - that would be bad enough - but the worst thing is God says he will torture people for simply not believing in him.
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I don't under why and how you keep confusing disbelief in GOD as a simply mental state. It means deeds. deeds follow belief.
Where is your proof that belief or disbelief in God makes you either better or worse behaved?
The only evidence that either you or I have is purely anecdotal and subjective.
No doubt you will tell me that religious people are much better behaved than athiests etc..
But from my perspective I see that - if anything - religious people are the ones who are not well behaved.
here is a clear cut example. GOD said Pharaoh will go to Hell.
4046
The Hell will be shown to them day and night, and on the Day of Resurrection "Admit Pharaoh's people into the worst retribution."GOD said Pharaoh will go to hell BECAUSE he disbelieve in GOD (311).
Pharaoh disbelief GOD existed. As a matter of fact, Pharaoh believed he was GOD (283.Yes I know what the Qur'an says.
But the problem is I don't believe in the Qur'an anymore.
So using the Qur'an to prove to me that the Qur'an is true is a bit meaningless isn't it.
It's like saying, 'The Qur'an is true, because it says it's true.'
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Have you ever thought that you should really be basing your decision whether to believe or not on the actual content of the Qur'an rather than some alleged 'Mathematical Miracles" ?
btw what do you think about this?
"...In order to prove this he counted the words ?al-yawm? and ?yawman? but he ignored words such as ?yawmukum? (your day) and ?yawmuhum? (their day) and yawma?idhin (on that day), because if he had done that, he would have got a different number..."
http//www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=69741&ln=eng
Who said I solely base it on math? That's only one thing to strengthen my faith. That is why I said
Yes, partially.
)Read this http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/365days.htm
Also, I don't really think the day thing is that "miraculous," but there are many others that are simply almost impossible for a human to even try to accomplish (and not even tell anyone about it). Too many coincidences.
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Have you ever thought that you should really be basing your decision whether to believe or not on the actual content of the Qur'an rather than some alleged 'Mathematical Miracles" ?
btw what do you think about this?
"...In order to prove this he counted the words ?al-yawm? and ?yawman? but he ignored words such as ?yawmukum? (your day) and ?yawmuhum? (their day) and yawma?idhin (on that day), because if he had done that, he would have got a different number..."
http//www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=69741&ln=eng
As said, read that debate.
Of course, to base your belief purely on the numbers would be ridiculous, but it is simply an affirmation that great intelligence went into the creation of the book.
As for the content, what stops you believing? Is it just Hell?
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So if God imprisoned murderers and rapists - or even executed them as they do in the USA - I wouldn't complain.
But God doesn't do that does He?
God tortures them - forever! (or a long time according to those who interpret it to mean that)
And if God was only torturing murderers and rapists and other serious criminals - that would be bad enough - but the worst thing is God says he will torture people for simply not believing in him.
For someone who doesn't believe in GOD, it surprises me how you can make such statement like "But God doesn't do that does He?
God tortures them - forever!" as if you KNOW GOD....)BTW, I dont think that is true. The concept of Hell basically imprisonment (312, 2222, 3220).
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Where is your proof that belief or disbelief in God makes you either better or worse behaved?
The only evidence that either you or I have is purely anecdotal and subjective.This is not "anecdotal" and subjective but can be scientifically measured.
For example, evidence are within the US prison system where studies have shown inmates who have access to church, masjid, and other religious services are less violent and more compliant within the prison system than those you dont have access to these services. This is a direct relation to the belief in GOD and acting base on that belief.CosmicDancer, honestly you have no valid points. You are somewhat flip flopping. You agree with punishment yet disagree with GOD doing the same which is complete illogical. Then you make claims that GOD punish people solely on mental belief which i have proven wrong according to the Koran (even the Bible preach punishment for deeds and not belief alone too - Rev. 2010). So honestly, i don't know where you got that misconception from about disbelief in GOD mentally equals hell.
Yes I know what the Qur'an says.
But the problem is I don't believe in the Qur'an anymore.
So using the Qur'an to prove to me that the Qur'an is true is a bit meaningless isn't it.
It's like saying, 'The Qur'an is true, because it says it's true.'
That is not the issue. Believe or disbelieve in the Quran, base on my examples from it, you can agree that it preach the opposite of your misconception that simply mental belief is the only reason one enters Hell. I just want to show you that your ideas about GOD and Hell are not supported in the Quran (and other religious scriptures).
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As for the content, what stops you believing? Is it just Hell?
No, not just that.
It is the whole of the Qur'an really. I simply don't see it as anything more than the words of a human being from a harsh 7th century desert environment.
I have absolutely no reason to believe it is fropm God - but plenty of reasons to believe it from a human being.
Maybe when I have a bit more time I will list some of my major problems with the Qur'an. (and with religion in general).
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The concept of Hell basically imprisonment (312, 2222, 3220).
How do you explain the verses that describe in graphic detail excrutiating tortures, such as having one's skin burnt of repeatedly or boiling fluid poured on the head.
Is that your idea of imprisonment?
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This is not "anecdotal" and subjective but can be scientifically measured.
For example, evidence are within the US prison system where studies have shown inmates who have access to church, masjid, and other religious services are less violent and more compliant within the prison system than those you dont have access to these services. This is a direct relation to the belief in GOD and acting base on that belief.I would be interested to read this study - do you have a link or a reference?
You agree with punishment yet disagree with GOD doing the same which is complete illogical.
What part of; 'humans don't torture prisoners' - don't you get?
Then you make claims that GOD punish people solely on mental belief which i have proven wrong according to the Koran
I am not convinced in the slightest by your arguments.
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I would be interested to read this study - do you have a link or a reference?
What part of; 'humans don't torture prisoners' - don't you get?
I am not convinced in the slightest by your arguments.
http//www.haworthpress.com/store/ArticleAbstract.asp?sid=GTKFR6K0GKVA9NPPD62RB10AM0SH3444&ID=19605
http//www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a718869673~db=all
http//66.102.1.104/scholar?num=20&hl=en&lr=&q=cachehl0o_CCC_FsJwww.pficjr.org/APACPUB/Studies/AssessingtheImpactReligious.pdf+
Google never hurt anyone )
Also, it is guaranteed that full justice and no more will be delivered in the Quran. I still see no problem, if God exists, and can create us, thus knowing us inside out, why is it impossible for God to not judge fairly? I see this thread as an attempt to justify your belief, not as an attempt to learn. Accept the simple evidence (see a few posts back, also, 4522, 63, and others).
What part of; 'humans don't torture prisoners' - don't you get?
When you exit fairyland, you may find the exact opposite to be the case. Prison in itself is mental/psychological torture. Punishment in any way, shape or form is torture. Show me a quantitative limit from which "torture" can be called "punishment".
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When you exit fairyland, you may find the exact opposite to be the case. Prison in itself is mental/psychological torture. Punishment in any way, shape or form is torture. Show me a quantitative limit from which "torture" can be called "punishment".
Tell me how is 10, 20 or even 30 years in a prison - the same as repeatedly burning off someone's skin and then replacing it so they can continue to feel the pain - or pouring scalding liquid into their brain or making them eat fruit like the head of devils that shreds their intestines.
Re surveys about religion in prisons - what do you feel this proves? To me it indicates that prisoners who feel remorse and want to atone for what they have done, find religion the best way to express this.
Perhaps a more interseting survey would be how many prisoners believe in God and a religion and how many don't and how does that correspond to the wider population.
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Dear Comicdancer;
The person who who tried to prove every word and every sentence is 19 or multiple of 19 was merely a BIG FRAUD.
He took out two verses of the Quran just to materialize his claim..His status in islam is not more than a "Kazzaab"=LiarIs that generally agreed by everyone here?
What about the 365 days = number of Yawm in Qur'an? Is that guy considered by most here to be a fraud? What do you think about the guy who said he selectively included variations of Yawm to make the number fit what he wanted?
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Tell me how is 10, 20 or even 30 years in a prison - the same as repeatedly burning off someone's skin and then replacing it so they can continue to feel the pain - or pouring scalding liquid into their brain or making them eat fruit like the head of devils that shreds their intestines.
Re surveys about religion in prisons - what do you feel this proves? To me it indicates that prisoners who feel remorse and want to atone for what they have done, find religion the best way to express this.
Perhaps a more interseting survey would be how many prisoners believe in God and a religion and how many don't.
It shows DIRECTLY that religion = lower recidivism. What you said is purely conjecture, yet here we have at least 3 studies directly linking religion to improvement. What you are doing is extrapolating, simply to justify your preconcieved notions, and nothing more. How many prisoners have you surveyed, and analysed that told you that they "felt remorse and wanted to atone"? The fact remains, however, that regardless, people improve with religion. If people who wish to improve tend toward religion, then I am sure you know the meaning of the word "fitrah".
As for "10, 20, 30 years in a prison", we are not talking about that. We are talking about so-called civilised countries where this routinely occurs ("extraordinary rendition", "creative interrogation", "thoughtcrime", etc ). The difference being, that the God who creates us and knows us better than ourselves does it with full justification, contrary to your preconcieved notions, and contrary to the human idea of "torture if you fear".
Perhaps a more interseting survey would be how many prisoners believe in God and a religion and how many don't.
No, an even better survey would be about how many prisoners practise the religion they claim to follow, especially at the time of their crime. I can predict the results 0. The word of a hypocrite is null and invalid in this context, nice try however. Claiming belief in God is just not enough. The example of the Arabs in 4914 - nobody can claim belief or faith, but they can claim submission. Belief in judgement day, and hence, accepting responsibility for your own actions & consequences is required, but claiming to do so is simply not enough (28+).
Regardless of this, it does not affect any of us in any way, shape or form. Someone using the threat of hellfire to enforce belief would be in the wrong. Likewise, someone using this same threat to reject is also in the wrong. We have no power to judge who is or is not going to hell. You cannot point at Joe Atheist Bloggs and say "You're going to hell". Bring your evidence if you are truthful, simple as that. The Quran states to the contrary, but since that does not fit your preconceptions, it must not exist.
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Is that generally agreed by everyone here?
What about the 365 days = number of Yawm in Qur'an? Is that guy considered by most here to be a fraud? What do you think about the guy who said he selectively included variations of Yawm to make the number fit what he wanted?
I wouldn't put something Leoxyz said in the same sentence "most here"... but that's just me.
In the meantime, check this thread out, it might be of some help - http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9721.0
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Is that generally agreed by everyone here?
What about the 365 days = number of Yawm in Qur'an? Is that guy considered by most here to be a fraud? What do you think about the guy who said he selectively included variations of Yawm to make the number fit what he wanted?
FM is very diverse. Are you being honest about your background? Not a single educated ("Islamically" soul have I ever seen who did not know about Khalifa. In any case, most on here don't accept the removal of two verses.
As for the 365 count, that comes from Edip Yuksel and others.
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Is that generally agreed by everyone here?
What about the 365 days = number of Yawm in Qur'an? Is that guy considered by most here to be a fraud? What do you think about the guy who said he selectively included variations of Yawm to make the number fit what he wanted?
Surely he was "Fraud".
The proof is just to justify his "methodology" he removed two verses from the Holy Quran.
All of his theory is based on "LIE" and you can imagine what sort of people are following him
"Birds of a feather flock together"
"A man is know by the company he keeps" -
It shows DIRECTLY that religion = lower recidivism. What you said is purely conjecture, yet here we have at least 3 studies directly linking religion to improvement. What you are doing is extrapolating, simply to justify your preconcieved notions, and nothing more. How many prisoners have you surveyed, and analysed that told you that they "felt remorse and wanted to atone"? The fact remains, however, that regardless, people improve with religion. If people who wish to improve tend toward religion, then I am sure you know the meaning of the word "fitrah".
Actually I suspect that it is true that religion does transform the behaviour of many converts or those who have been re-born into the faith. But it neither proves that belief is true, nor does it mean that the remaining prisoners are representative of those who do not believe in God in the general population.
There is no doubt that many find the crutch of religion helps give them boundaries, direction, motivation and comfort. But it also drives many to commit horrendous acts of bigotry and hatred towards the 'other'.
As for "10, 20, 30 years in a prison", we are not talking about that. We are talking about so-called civilised countries where this routinely occurs ("extraordinary rendition", "creative interrogation", "thoughtcrime", etc )). The difference being, that the God who creates us and knows us better than ourselves does it with full justification, contrary to your preconcieved notions, and contrary to the human idea of "torture if you fear".
Even Guantanimo or Saddams torture chamber (all of which I am completely against) do not compare with the horrors described in the Qur'an (which is supposed to make me worship and love the God who does that)
an even better survey would be about how many prisoners practise the religion they claim to follow, especially at the time of their crime. I can predict the results 0.
991 bombers, 7/7 bombers, Bali bombers, Madrid bombers, Jime Jones, David Koresh, Baruch Goldstein, etc...
No - let me guess - they were not true believers.
Someone using the threat of hellfire to enforce belief would be in the wrong. Likewise, someone using this same threat to reject is also in the wrong.
lol... I'm not threatening anyone with hell-fire? What are you talking about?
I don't believe in Hell. I don't think you will burn in Hell if you are a Muslim. I don't think anyone will burn in Hell.
I do not have a clue what is going to happen to us when we die - perhaps we all have to suffer the consiquences of our actions - that seems reasonable to me - but imho, beliefs will have nothing to do with it.
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FM is very diverse. Are you being honest about your background? Not a single educated ("Islamically" soul have I ever seen who did not know about Khalifa. In any case, most on here don't accept the removal of two verses.
As for the 365 count, that comes from Edip Yuksel and others.
I have heard about the Submitters but don't know a great deal about Rashad Khlaifah or the Qur'an only group - except that they reject Hadith and are considered apostates by traditional Muslims. (In my experience most Muslims have heard of the submitters, but - like me - actually know very little about them apart from the fact they reject Hadith)
I never came accross this site before and wasn't aware it was a submitters site.
So is it funded and run by submitters?
Who is Edip Yuksel (sounds Turkish) - was he a follower of Rashad Khalifah who came up with some of his own miracles?
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Surely he was "Fraud".
The proof is just to justify his "methodology" he removed two verses from the Holy Quran.
All of his theory is based on "LIE" and you can imagine what sort of people are following him
"Birds of a feather flock together"
"A man is know by the company he keeps"What are your beliefs then Leoxyz?