Are the Quran aloners hurting the refomist cause?
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Wouldn't the conclusion be that the messenger isn't always referring to Muhammad, hence "messenger"
Or am I wrong?
Before going to other questionsPlease clear what I understood.
I repeat the question
You saidNo just the impossible verses cannot be done.
I asked you
Now you are on the right path;
Probably you want to say that the verse
459
is possible to carry out nowadays?
Am I correct to understand you ?Please answer this question then we will move to other questions so that material is settled in an organized manner.
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Salaam Navid,
Thank you for presenting those verses. But could you tell me your thoughts on 7750, especially in the context of the rest of sura 77?
7750
Correct, you are supposed to have Iman= safety and trust in the Qur'an. That same Qur'an tells you to have Iman= safety and trust in the messenger and to obey him in so many occasions. If you have true Iman in the Qur'an then you follow what it says and not manipulate it as you are trying to imply.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
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Salaam Navid,
Correct, you are supposed to have Iman= safety and trust in the Qur'an. That same Qur'an tells you to have Iman= safety and trust in the messenger and to obey him in so many occasions. If you have true Iman in the Qur'an then you follow what it says and not manipulate it as you are trying to imply.Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
You are correct, if you have iman in the Quran you will not need to resort to hearing hearsay and conjecture about hearsay.
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Salaam Navid,
Correct, you are supposed to have Iman= safety and trust in the Qur'an. That same Qur'an tells you to have Iman= safety and trust in the messenger and to obey him in so many occasions. If you have true Iman in the Qur'an then you follow what it says and not manipulate it as you are trying to imply.Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
So 7750 (among other countless verses) does not apply? The quran, using CLEAR verses tells you to not follow any other hadith aside the quran, to follow God only and the quran only which is complete and clearly explained, that the quran cites EVERY example, etc. These verses are indisputable. There is only ONE way to interpret them. Yet you deny these verses through upholding the hadith.
Now, let's compare what I said above to the reason you uphold the hadith, which is based on ONE quote that is manipulated to get one meaning. "Obey the messenger" DOES NOT have ONE meaning (to follow everything prophet muhammad does through the narration of long chains, gathered after the prophet's death). "Obey the messenger" can be intepreted in different ways. However, you stick to one interpretation and use that to uphold the hadith.
Do you see the difference? Please approach this with an open mind. How could you not see this?
Please, explain your thoughts on verses such as 7750. What does it mean by "Which hadith after this will they believe?"
Peace
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So 7750 (among other countless verses) does not apply? The quran, using CLEAR verses tells you to not follow any other hadith aside the quran, to follow God only and the quran only which is complete and clearly explained, that the quran cites EVERY example, etc. These verses are indisputable. There is only ONE way to interpret them. Yet you deny these verses through upholding the hadith.
Wrong understanding. It suggests that any other hadeeth that is contradictory to the Qur'an is rejected and not just any other hadeeth. If you truly mean what you say then you should not write anything because that is a "hadeeth that God asked you reject" according to your faulty understanding. However, neither you nor OPF will stop giving "hadeeth" but will always believe wrongly that only the "hadeeth of the prohet is rejected here". That is what is called hypocrisy.
Take care
Hussein
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Wrong understanding. It suggests that any other hadeeth that is contradictory to the Qur'an is rejected and not just any other hadeeth. If you truly mean what you say then you should not write anything because that is a "hadeeth that God asked you reject" according to your faulty understanding. However, neither you nor OPF will stop giving "hadeeth" but will always believe wrongly that only the "hadeeth of the prohet is rejected here". That is what is called hypocrisy.
Take care
Hussein
Where does it suggest that it is hadith contradictory the quran? The quran repeatedly (not only 7750) implies that you should not follow any other hadith other than the quran, as divine guidance. How can you reject this?
That is one thing you are not understanding, you are the one manipulating, brother. You say that "hadith" in the quran refers to everything other than your hadith (irony it is the same word). I (and I'm asssuming OPF), on the other hand, follow logic and the quran, and take it to refer to ANY OTHER hadith aside from the quran. This is undeniable.
Peace
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Your "logic" or the "lack of it" is expressed in your "hadeeth". According to you I need to reject the hadeeth that contains your logic per 7750.
As far where I got my understanding. From the Aya and the ones before it and after it. The Qur'an was challenging the ones who reject it because they felt safe in an alternative that contradicts it. The Qur'an does not reject any hadeeth that is consistent with it or that supports it, including the hadeeth that is attributed to the prophet.
Hussein
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Your "logic" or the "lack of it" is expressed in your "hadeeth". According to you I need to reject the hadeeth that contains your logic per 7750.
What?
As far where I got my understanding. From the Aya and the ones before it and after it. The Qur'an was challenging the ones who reject it because they felt safe in an alternative that contradicts it. The Qur'an does not reject any hadeeth that is consistent with it or that supports it, including the hadeeth that is attributed to the prophet.
Hussein
The fact of the matter is that you are ADDING divine laws on to the deen by following "hadith other than the quran. Not only do you take divine guidance/laws from humans, some ahadith DO in fact contradict the quran. Regardless, again, you are taking divine laws from other hadith than the quran. This is what the quran warns against, and you do not see it.
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So 7750 (among other countless verses) does not apply? The quran, using CLEAR verses tells you to not follow any other hadith aside the quran, to follow God only and the quran only which is complete and clearly explained, that the quran cites EVERY example, etc. These verses are indisputable. There is only ONE way to interpret them. Yet you deny these verses through upholding the hadith.
Now, let's compare what I said above to the reason you uphold the hadith, which is based on ONE quote that is manipulated to get one meaning. "Obey the messenger" DOES NOT have ONE meaning (to follow everything prophet muhammad does through the narration of long chains, gathered after the prophet's death). "Obey the messenger" can be intepreted in different ways. However, you stick to one interpretation and use that to uphold the hadith.
Do you see the difference? Please approach this with an open mind. How could you not see this?
Please, explain your thoughts on verses such as 7750. What does it mean by "Which hadith after this will they believe?"
Peace
Dear Navid ;
I give you an example;
A country has a constituition .Constituition decrees
"Obey the constituition only and whosoever betrays will be punished
That is true .Now in the constituition there is another provision of appointing "governors" in different states (provinces ) of the country.Constituition also decrees that governors should be obeyed.
What do you think that this obeying of Governors is
-obedience of constituition or
-disobedience of the constituition??????????
I will be waiting for you thoughtful reply -
Dear Navid ;
I give you an example;
A country has a constituition .Constituition decrees
"Obey the constituition only and whosoever betrays will be punished
That is true .Now in the constituition there is another provision of appointing "governors" in different states (provinces ) of the country.Constituition also decrees that governors should be obeyed.
What do you think that this obeying of Governors is
-obedience of constituition or
-disobedience of the constituition??????????
I will be waiting for you thoughtful replyWith the context of "obey the consitution only and whosoever betrays it will be punished," it is painfully clear that nothing else should be followed beside it as this commandment is clear Obey only the constitution. Now, with this in mind, why on earth would you interpret (out of various interpretations, as opposed to ONE interpretation in "obey only the constitution" obey the governors as to mean something beside the constitution.
Similarly
-The quran says it should only be followed (a clear sign, with no other interpretation).
-It also says to obey the MESSENGER (not the human Muhammad, remember quran does not run out of words).
-You choose ONE interpretation of "obey the messenger" and use it to follow something in addition to the quran, when in reality, it could mean anything else since it is not clear like "follow only the quran."
-Thus, there is a contradiction.This is very easy to see.