According to the quran, what is the lowest heaven?
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http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_021.htm
It is strange that even after all this explanation, they do not believe that only Allah wields absolute sovereignty over everything in the universe."
And it is even stranger that the idiot who cherry-picked certain verses out of the Quran in that link above to disgrace and demean others didn't for once realize that his very own man-made god promises to keep his slaves and fellowship intact from straying away, yet he breaks his godly promise to shun the very slaves and fellowship as he so wills and subjects them to horrendous punishments akin to an evil. This man-made god is beyond recognition and himself does not know what the heck he is talking about. You see, even an evil person is merciful to his own family, relatives and close friends when it comes to forced submissions. -
Look, what you don't understand is that this book is completely useless unless Muslims admit that it is not the letter for letter dictation of God. Then, maybe I could reconsider it, and it could be considered along the same way as other religious texts are considered.
Hello Arnold,
That is the only reason I am attracted to study this book. This is the only book that claims to be from God. If I conclude that this is not a God's word then I dont need a human written book to guide my life. I am better off without a book.
the writings are actually spiritually bankrupt and conflict with the teachings of Jesus and other mystics in ways that the author (Muhammad) didn't understand.
A logical point If Quran is not in harmony with Bible and other mystics then that does not necessarily make Quran false.
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Thanks explorer for the warm welcome. welcome I'd like to know your opinion of my interpretation of heaven as the particle horizon (Boundary of the known universe).
Peaceful Mind, I just read about the particle horizon on the wikipedia.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_horizon
Interesting concept.
However it would not explain the 7 heavens.
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Peaceful Mind, I just read about the particle horizon on the wikipedia.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_horizon
Interesting concept.
However it would not explain the 7 heavens.
May be there are 7 universes after all.
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And it is even stranger that the idiot who cherry-picked certain verses out of the Quran in that link above to disgrace and demean others didn't for once realize that his very own man-made god promises to keep his slaves and fellowship intact from straying away, yet he breaks his godly promise to shun the very slaves and fellowship as he so wills and subjects them to horrendous punishments akin to an evil. This man-made god is beyond recognition and himself does not know what the heck he is talking about. You see, even an evil person is merciful to his own family, relatives and close friends when it comes to forced submissions.
You obviously do not know what the heck you are talking about. What's the mercy of God got to do with this topic? And of course, the Muslims twist the verses when it comes to miracles in the Quran, while the "peace-loving" and "honest" missionaries do not twist the verses to serve thier corrupted agenda. How pathetic.
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Look, what you don't understand is that this book is completely useless unless Muslims admit that it is not the letter for letter dictation of God.
Do you not think the Bible is letter for letter dictation of God? I believe the Christians I have known think so.
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However it would not explain the 7 heavens.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14637.0
You see, even an evil person is merciful to his own family, relatives and close friends when it comes to forced submissions.
Where you get definition of evil?
For all acts/thoughts can be justified in one?s mind; everyone has freedom to choose thier attitude or ?intent? to act (if permitted) on any ideas which pop into thier heads setting up thier own dominos of life continuously every moment...
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7699005803996302162
peace
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Name Arnold
Posts 57 (57 per day)
Position Beginner/Inquirer
Date Registered Yesterday at 070654 AM
Last Active Today at 064107 PMReally, you hate repeating; with 57 posts/day?
That's right, because they aren't repetitions.
Drama queens, saviors, rescuers, feigners and attention-seekers
http//www.bullyonline.org/workbully/attent.htmAd hominem always seems to be the answer of choice when one doesn't have an answer to the point.
http//www.quran-islam.org/universe.htm
What a lying piece of propaganda tripe. Boy, if I had the time, I'll rip this thing piece by piece. Here's an example of what these lying little propagandists do.
The orbits of the heavenly bodies are mentioned in the verse
"and the sun and the moon, all travelling in orbits." 2133
Note that the last verse said "all" and not 'both' which indicates that the reference to the sun and the moon is symbolic, that is, of all other heavenly bodies that obey the same rules.
Well, gee, how about if we look at the whole verse? Look at how he cleverly snipped off the first part of the verse
021.033
YUSUFALI It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.
PICKTHAL And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.
SHAKIR And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.and look at how even the translators had to add their own comments in parenthesis? But anyway, it sure looks a little different if we post the whole verse, but he purposefully did not do that. Why not? We both know why not.
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_021.htm
SURAH 21 Al-Anbiy?
- "(Out of their sheer ignorance some people take natural phenomena as deities or divinities. This is despite the fact the entire continuum of the universe has been created by Allah and remains fervently in action according to His given programme.
Complete assumption.
At present various phenomena in the universe appear to them as functioning separately from one another, but) Do they not seriously understand that in the initial stages of creation all of them were one mass which We then parted, so that the various celestial bodies started floating in their own orbits (2133; 3640).
He needs to include 2130. And 3640 talks about the sun and moon not being able to catch each other as if normally they could? Doesn't that sound like they are orbiting in the same general space to you? It sure as heck does to me. Seems pretty obvious. If we were in the 15th century, we would both be in agreement as to what this means. The only thing that has changed is modern science which cause him to reinterpret the Quran to make it fit. Do you call that objective truth seeking?
(Take for example the planet earth. In its initial stages it separated from the original mass, just like a stone thrown out from a catapult ~ 7930.) Later (when the earth became ready to bear or produce living things) We started life from water. (All living things are created from a mixture of water ~ 2445. And over this fountain of life Allah has kept His own control ~ 117.)
The Quran would have done a much better job if it said the earth was split from all of the other planets and stars. But it didn't. It split the earth and the heavens into two parts. One was the ground (the earth) and one was the sky (the heavens) as if the sky were a canopy of sorts, and actual physical entity of sorts. Surely the sky is different than the planets and stars that decorate the sky.
It is strange that even after all this explanation, they do not believe that only Allah wields absolute sovereignty over everything in the universe."
peace
It is strange that Muhammad merely took plainly observable physical laws and occurrences, and arbitrarily attributed them to his God. That's all the guy ever did in the whole Quran. He never really displayed any true wisdom, he just said a lot of "do they not see?" and hijacked all of the wonders of nature and attributed them to his particular God. Anybody can do that. The question is, why believe him?
peace
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Hello Arnold,
That is the only reason I am attracted to study this book. This is the only book that claims to be from God. If I conclude that this is not a God's word then I dont need a human written book to guide my life. I am better off without a book.
A logical point If Quran is not in harmony with Bible and other mystics then that does not necessarily make Quran false.Yes true, but it pretends to be the completion of such things, when in fact, it's clear that it misunderstands such things. If you read certain mystics, you would know exactly what I'm talking about. As far as biblical tradition goes, Moses was the law maker for the beginning. Jesus was supposed to be the next evolution. Jesus was clearly a mystic, regardless of the Son of God stuff. If you know mystics, you'll recognize these concepts all over Jesus' words. But most people don't know these things, so they have a very difficult time understanding Jesus. And I believe Muhammad didn't understand him, because Muhammad generally returned the religion from mystic spirituality back to strict rules and regulations, and in an even more regulated fashion than Moses.
For example, Islam is clearly political. Muhammad thought that the religion of God must also be a political ruler as well as a religious ruler. But when we look at Jesus, he clearly separated his kingdom from anything political. "Give to Caesar what is his and give to God what is his". And now Muhammad comes along and reverses that and makes religion very political. Another example is when a guy asked Jesus to settle an inheritance dispute between him and his brother and Jesus said he did not come to settle such disputes. What he really meant is that they are silly and one shouldn't be so focused on money anyway and instead focus on the heart and soul. Remember, Jesus gave himself very little wealth. He simply didn't care about it. If anything, it just got in his way and was extra baggage to carry around. But then Muhammad sees this in the New Testament (or hears about it), and mistakenly perceives it as an unmet task that Jesus didn't have time to meet, and therefore sets about to create an entire convoluted system for splitting up inheritance money. And it turned out to be a flawed system where in some situations, the fractions ended up adding up to more than 100%. In order to fix this, Muslims reinvented a few rules of math and shifted the position of the math paragraphs to shift the order in which things are added up. For example 16 / (5 + 3) = 8 But (16 / 5) + 3 yields a different answer. This is how they covered the errors.
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Do you not think the Bible is letter for letter dictation of God? I believe the Christians I have known think so.
No I don't. But I don't think any scripture needs to be. Words are just pointers that help us deal with concepts that are ultimately beyond words. They help get you there, but once you're there, they are no longer needed. The donkey one uses to get to the home is not the means by which you enter the home. One must dismount. So for me, I don't need any scriptures to be the letter for letter dictation of God as the exact words ultimately are not that important, but rather the spirit behind them is what is important. I don't know why some Christians insist upon letter for letter. The Bible is merely a collection of stories designed to retell events that happened between God and humans, and in these events and quotes are lessons to be had. Who needs anything more? Even if there are mistranslations here and there or oddities that conflict with modern science, it doesn't effect the larger message. The lessons are pretty clear.
Muslims claim that Jesus came with a book, so that he can look more like Muhammad, where the book becomes the emphasis, not the miracles (which Muhammad never did). But Jesus never came with any book at all, nor do he ever intend to write one. "The law shall be written on the hearts of men". The Gospels were merely a logical occurrence where people would of course want to retell the story of Jesus. This is why none of the books are called the Gospel according to Jesus. It's that way on purpose. Did you ever think of that? Jesus never came with any book, he merely came with the truth. The word Gospel, when used during Jesus' time, meant "truth". This word was then later used for the written books called The Gospel of...., which really means, the Truth of...... But never, never was there any mention of a book that Jesus brought with him. This was Muhammad's invention so that it can parallel what he was trying to do with the Quran.
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No I don't. But I don't think any scripture needs to be. Words are just pointers that help us deal with concepts that are ultimately beyond words. They help get you there, but once you're there, they are no longer needed. The donkey one uses to get to the home is not the means by which you enter the home. One must dismount. So for me, I don't need any scriptures to be the letter for letter dictation of God as the exact words ultimately are not that important, but rather the spirit behind them is what is important. I don't know why some Christians insist upon letter for letter. The Bible is merely a collection of stories designed to retell events that happened between God and humans, and in these events and quotes are lessons to be had. Who needs anything more? Even if there are mistranslations here and there or oddities that conflict with modern science, it doesn't effect the larger message. The lessons are pretty clear.
So you basically say that the Bible is not divine and has error in it.
Muslims claim that Jesus came with a book, so that he can look more like Muhammad,
Jesus came with a book to teach you the wisdom and oneness of God. Alas, you have corrupted it.
where the book becomes the emphasis, not the miracles (which Muhammad never did).
Muhammed did miracles.
But Jesus never came with any book at all, nor do he ever intend to write one.
That's you own subjective distorted opinion.
"The law shall be written on the hearts of men".
You mean the Old Testament.
The Gospels were merely a logical occurrence where people would of course want to retell the story of Jesus. This is why none of the books are called the Gospel according to Jesus. It's that way on purpose. Did you ever think of that? Jesus never came with any book, he merely came with the truth. The word Gospel, when used during Jesus' time, meant "truth". This word was then later used for the written books called The Gospel of...., which really means, the Truth of...... But never, never was there any mention of a book that Jesus brought with him. This was Muhammad's invention so that it can parallel what he was trying to do with the Quran.
Muhammed did not come up with inventions. The Quran is the word of God. Grow up and stop clutching at staws.
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Well, gee, how about if we look at the whole verse? Look at how he cleverly snipped off the first part of the verse
021.033
YUSUFALI It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.
PICKTHAL And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.
SHAKIR And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.and look at how even the translators had to add their own comments in parenthesis? But anyway, it sure looks a little different if we post the whole verse, but he purposefully did not do that. Why not? We both know why not.
The guy's interpretation is correct. Obviously night and day do not travel, they are signs of the sun and the moon, which, among other objects, orbit in thier rounded course.
Anyway, I believe I have already explained the heaven issue.
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Yes true, but it pretends to be the completion of such things, when in fact, it's clear that it misunderstands such things. If you read certain mystics, you would know exactly what I'm talking about. As far as biblical tradition goes, Moses was the law maker for the beginning. Jesus was supposed to be the next evolution. Jesus was clearly a mystic, regardless of the Son of God stuff. If you know mystics, you'll recognize these concepts all over Jesus' words. But most people don't know these things, so they have a very difficult time understanding Jesus. And I believe Muhammad didn't understand him, because Muhammad generally returned the religion from mystic spirituality back to strict rules and regulations, and in an even more regulated fashion than Moses.
For example, Islam is clearly political. Muhammad thought that the religion of God must also be a political ruler as well as a religious ruler. But when we look at Jesus, he clearly separated his kingdom from anything political. "Give to Caesar what is his and give to God what is his". And now Muhammad comes along and reverses that and makes religion very political. Another example is when a guy asked Jesus to settle an inheritance dispute between him and his brother and Jesus said he did not come to settle such disputes. What he really meant is that they are silly and one shouldn't be so focused on money anyway and instead focus on the heart and soul. Remember, Jesus gave himself very little wealth. He simply didn't care about it. If anything, it just got in his way and was extra baggage to carry around. But then Muhammad sees this in the New Testament (or hears about it), and mistakenly perceives it as an unmet task that Jesus didn't have time to meet, and therefore sets about to create an entire convoluted system for splitting up inheritance money. And it turned out to be a flawed system where in some situations, the fractions ended up adding up to more than 100%. In order to fix this, Muslims reinvented a few rules of math and shifted the position of the math paragraphs to shift the order in which things are added up. For example 16 / (5 + 3) = 8 But (16 / 5) + 3 yields a different answer. This is how they covered the errors.
Your corrupted Bible (By your own admission) holds no authority to us. You hold up the opinion that prophet Muhammed copied from the corrupted Bible, whic is not true. Muhammed never used the religion for politics. Muslims revered to him because he was the wisest and most righteous. Quraish offered him to abandon the message of God and be thier king but he refused. Your arguemt holds no water here. Typical missionary lies.
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Where you get definition of evil?
For all acts/thoughts can be justified in one?s mind; everyone has freedom to choose thier attitude or ?intent? to act (if permitted) on any ideas which pop into thier heads setting up thier own dominos of life continuously every moment...
What has definition of evil got to do with what I said? We all know what evil means. Read the following again"You see, even an evil person is merciful to his own family, relatives and close friends when it comes to forced submissions."
In essense when Bush calls Saddam's regime or North Korea or Iran, an axis of evil, what does that mean? When other world leaders and their countrymen and when Muslims call Bush an evil person, what does that mean? Do you understand or are you going to start talking about definitions, LOL! Now take the analogy and compare it with Muhammad's. Just nit-picking certain verses out of the Quran and claiming that the entire Quran is divine to automatically become God's words while ignoring its degenerated, vengeful, megalomanic and barbaric nature, including its inconsistent, incomplete, repetitious and contradictory structure becomes misunderstandings or metaphoricals.rotfl Even more funnily, people who defiantly criticize the Quran for what it actually is, the Muslim apologists start cherry-picking neatly selected verses out of an ancient 1500 year old book to throb upon the 21st century generation at face value. The Quran is nothing more than an ancient pagan dogmatic book and out-of-fashion, and none of the Muslim countries even practice some of Quran's harsh and disfunctional injunctions yet make all sorts of noises to defend them just to claim superiority and feel good over all other nations and disgracefully among themselves.
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It is strange that Muhammad merely took plainly observable physical laws and occurrences, and arbitrarily attributed them to his God. That's all the guy ever did in the whole Quran. He never really displayed any true wisdom, he just said a lot of "do they not see?" and hijacked all of the wonders of nature and attributed them to his particular God. Anybody can do that. The question is, why believe him?
"Quran is from god" this is an hypothesis that could be either right or wrong. We need to be very careful, certain, and honest to ourselves in our conclusion. Lets say for the sake of discussion, if the hopothesis happens to be true then we are done - big time. This is the only book that claims to be from the God of nature. For me it is either this or nothing.
Off topic You seem to hate muslims and Quran. Who is your god, if any?
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Just nit-picking certain verses out of the Quran
Very self-descriptive of you.
while ignoring its degenerated, vengeful, megalomanic and barbaric nature, including its inconsistent, incomplete, repetitious and contradictory structure becomes misunderstandings or metaphoricals.
Subjective.
Even more funnily, people who defiantly criticize the Quran for what it actually is, the Muslim apologists start cherry-picking neatly selected verses out of an ancient 1500 year old book to throb upon the 21st century generation at face value. The Quran is nothing more than an ancient pagan dogmatic book and out-of-fashion,
Again subjective.
and none of the Muslim countries even practice some of Quran's harsh and disfunctional injunctions
The Quran has no harsh or dysfunctioanal injunctions. Do Christian countries practice the Bible?
yet make all sorts of noises to defend them just to claim superiority and feel good over all other nations and disgracefully among themselves.
Anti-Islam idiots are those who make the noise, Muslims merely defend thier religion because they believe it's the truth, just like the Christians do with thier Bible, the Jews with thier Torah etc...
Seriously get a life and grow up.
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So you basically say that the Bible is not divine and has error in it.Jesus came with a book to teach you the wisdom and oneness of God. Alas, you have corrupted it.
Why would anybody want to wipe out the book that Jesus brought? Why would they want to completely wipe out any mention of that? Like I said, there never was a Gospel according to Jesus. He said the law will be written on the hearts of men. Those books are not corruptions of Jesus' book because he never brought a book with him. Those books are merely a retelling of the story of Jesus.
Muhammed did miracles.
Well, be careful about that, because you're going to have to pull out the hadiths to show me this. There are parts of the Quran that suggest the Muhammad wasn't going to be doing any miracles because nobody believed in past prophets who did miracles anyway.
That's you own subjective distorted opinion.
Oh, naturally. That's right. I'm the subjective one, and you're the objective one ;D In my experience, when it comes to Islam, nobody is more subjective than Muslims.
You mean the Old Testament.Muhammed did not come up with inventions. The Quran is the word of God. Grow up and stop clutching at staws.
Telling me to grow up is not an answer and is in fact indicative that you don't have any really good answers and you are beginning to realize this.
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Why would anybody want to wipe out the book that Jesus brought? Why would they want to completely wipe out any mention of that? Like I said, there never was a Gospel according to Jesus. He said the law will be written on the hearts of men. Those books are not corruptions of Jesus' book because he never brought a book with him. Those books are merely a retelling of the story of Jesus.
I believe there are some elements of the original Gospel of Jesus in today's Gospels. They distorted the Gospels to serve thier own purposes. And again, does the Bible have errors in it? You seem to agree with this.
Well, be careful about that, because you're going to have to pull out the hadiths to show me this. There are parts of the Quran that suggest the Muhammad wasn't going to be doing any miracles because nobody believed in past prophets who did miracles anyway.
The Quran is miracle, and also the Night Journey.
Oh, naturally. That's right. I'm the subjective one, and you're the objective one In my experience, when it comes to Islam, nobody is more subjective than Muslims.
May be I am subjective, actually faith is all about subjectivity. I am just trying to reform my people. You just want to demonize the religion.
Telling me to grow up is not an answer and is in fact indicative that you don't have any really good answers and you are beginning to realize this.
No, not at all. It's not indicative of anything. I am just sick of people like Genteel. Apologies if that offended you.
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Good stuff especially for Christian extremist trolls...
http//www.answering-christianity.com/quran/quranerr.htm
The Answer to "Answering Islam"
http//www.submission.org/answering-Islam.htm
peace