Question regarding Zina

Bigmo

Salaam Hadi

Welcome aboard the forum ;D

Those who had sex with a prostitute are not sound witnesses and their testimony is not accepted.
Admission by her, yes. There is a procedure for that in front of an authority (a judge, for example).
Are we now talking about adultery or zina? The punishment is for zina (public sex) and the case in number 2 above.
No single person, other than the spouse, has the right to accuse another, otherwise they will be lashed 80 lashes (accusation without bringing 4 witnesses). Again, adultery is not zina as long as it is not witnessed by the spouse. Because it is nobody's business (other than the spouse) to report it and it does not affect them as it does the spouse. Of course he/she has the choice to keep quiet and solve the problem. If he/she does not want to continue in the marriage, he/she has to go to the judge and do the procedure. The accused also can deny the charge, but in either case they will be divorced.

Zina is a kind of fahisha. Not all fahisha is zina

I think Zina is adultery and not fornification.

Second as far as accusation of the spouse, the other spouse can also swear by oath. If both swear then ist nullified. If someone else accuses, he needs 4 witnesses. However there is no standard punishment as the koran does not have a specific legal code. The Koran say

If we look at the Koran, it mentions the situation when one ACCUSES a woman of ill conduct and even a spouse accuses another of ill conduct. Lets see what it say

24.2. The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

24.3. Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.

24.4. And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors;-

24.5. Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.

24.6. And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by God that they are solemnly telling the truth;

24.7. And the fifth that they solemnly invoke the curse of God on themselves if they tell a lie.

24.8. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times By God, that he is telling a lie;

24.9. And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of God on herself if he is telling the truth.

24.10. If it were not for God's grace and mercy on you, and that God is Oft- Returning, full of Wisdom,-

Yet the Koran also say

Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful 24.33

4.15-17 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way,If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful,God accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will God turn in mercy For God is full of knowledge and wisdom.

And yet again the Koran say

5.32. On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

5.33. The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

5.34. Except for those who repent before they fall into your power in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Here the Koran gives several recommendations to the prophet for those who wage war and create mischief and murder in the land. Anything from executions to exile. Jail is aform of exile and banishment form society. So the Koran has not given anything specific but gave guidelines and recommendations to the prophet. Every society has its own rules and norms and punishments can vary due to threat and due to circumstances and due to cultural and societal norms.

Allen

Are we now talking about adultery or zina? The punishment is for zina (public sex) and the case in number 2 above.

From your statement it seems as "Zina" and "adultery" are two different acts.Would you please provide any evidence for this differentiation including their definitions?
Thanks in advance.

Samia

From your statement it seems as "Zina" and "adultery" are two different acts.Would you please provide any evidence for this differentiation including their definitions?
Thanks in advance.

What's your definition of adultery?

I use the word "zina" not adultrey. I understand adultrey as a sexual act outside wedlock. If so, this is not the definition of zina. Unmarried people can also commit zina.

Allen

What's your definition of adultery?

I use the word "zina" not adultrey. I understand adultrey as a sexual act outside wedlock. If so, this is not the definition of zina. Unmarried people can also commit zina.

Instead of putting a counter question ,first answer my question.
You said

Are we now talking about adultery or zina?

your way of questioning indicates that you think "adultery and Zina" are two different acts.
Please define them separately with evidence.
Then I will definitely answer your question.

Samia

Instead of putting a counter question ,first answer my question.
You said

your way of questioning indicates that you think "adultery and Zina" are two different acts.
Please define them separately with evidence.
Then I will definitely answer your question.

I explained my understanding of the word adultery. I answer in my own way. Take it or leave it

unknownuser

Instead of putting a counter question ,first answer my question.
You said

your way of questioning indicates that you think "adultery and Zina" are two different acts.
Please define them separately with evidence.
Then I will definitely answer your question.

It is rather obvious. Most people translate "zina" as "adultery" even when zina is "adultery & fornication", hence the question - "Do you mean adultery or do you mean zina", implying that if the answer was "I meant adultery" then the subsequent response would be "zina is both adultery and fornication".

http//i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/dsg2003mustanggt/91174851.jpg

Allen

I explained my understanding of the word adultery. I answer in my own way. Take it or leave it

It means you cannot precisely define zina and adultery separately? then how can you say these are different acts ?

unknownuser

Back to our old ways, are we?

Samia

It means you cannot precisely define zina and adultery separately? then how can you say these are different acts ?

No I can't. Yes I can

hak036

Hi.
Samia, thanks for the clarification, I think this topic is becoming clearer in my head as there were a few doubts before.
Allen, OPF, Bigmo I suggest you read some of the other threads where this topic has been discussed quite extensively, by samia, ayman, tanveer and others... i think it will clear some of your doubts and might address some of your questions as well... thats what i did and there was a lot to learn. u can search 'zani' by user 'ayman' - that'll work.

Samia, one more question though ... in 244-9 and 415, does shahada mean eye witness or can it also mean evidence? I use the Hans Wehr dictionary and the root word sahida means to witness, testify, or see with ones own eyes. But a derivative of the word sahada could mean evidence as well? What do u think? Is Hans Wehr good to use or should i use others to get a broad perspective?

Peace.

SwedenMajidah

Salaam Hadi

Welcome aboard the forum ;D

Those who had sex with a prostitute are not sound witnesses and their testimony is not accepted.
Admission by her, yes. There is a procedure for that in front of an authority (a judge, for example).
Are we now talking about adultery or zina? The punishment is for zina (public sex) and the case in number 2 above.
No single person, other than the spouse, has the right to accuse another, otherwise they will be lashed 80 lashes (accusation without bringing 4 witnesses). Again, adultery is not zina as long as it is not witnessed by the spouse. Because it is nobody's business (other than the spouse) to report it and it does not affect them as it does the spouse. Of course he/she has the choice to keep quiet and solve the problem. If he/she does not want to continue in the marriage, he/she has to go to the judge and do the procedure. The accused also can deny the charge, but in either case they will be divorced.

Zina is a kind of fahisha. Not all fahisha is zina

Peace,

I must say that Samia explain it very logic when she says that adultery can only be zina when it's witnessed by the spouse who are the ones who will be concerned of such an act.

To have sex when you are not married is an awful act but if you do it secretly(not public) then you cannot be punished for it in form of lashes. But instead it's between you and God and God can punish you if He wants.

And 2433 And let those who are not able to marrycontinue to be chasteuntil God enriches them of His bounty......

Peace
Maria

Allen

Peace,

I must say that Samia explain it very logic when she says that adultery can only be zina when it's witnessed by the spouse who are the ones who will be concerned of such an act.

To have sex when you are not married is an awful act but if you do it secretly(not public) then you cannot be punished for it in form of lashes. But instead it's between you and God and God can punish you if He wants.

And 2433 And let those who are not able to marrycontinue to be chasteuntil God enriches them of His bounty......

Peace
Maria

Zina is Zina ,no matter how it is
-secret or open
-married or unmarried
-with witnesses or without witnesses.
Can you tell me which word in arabic is used for "Adultery"?? where Quran has used that word ?

unknownuser

Zina is Zina ,no matter how it is
-secret or open
-married or unmarried
-with witnesses or without witnesses.
Can you tell me which word in arabic is used for "Adultery"?? where Quran has used that word ?

You are correct but realistically, "zina" cannot be prosecuted for unless it is public (where 4 witnesses constitutes it being public). Ref 4912.

Allen

You are correct but realistically, "zina" cannot be prosecuted for unless it is public (where 4 witnesses constitutes it being public). Ref 4912.

Show me presence of four persons lease highlight those words and put them back
4912

1249

unknownuser

Show me presence of four persons Please highlight those words and put them back
4912

1249

I pity you.

Jack

Peace,

2+2=4

In 4912 we are told NOT to spy on one another and to avoid suspicion, now tell me what situations will produce 4 witnesses

a) public sex

b) the person has had sex with at least 4 different partners (most likely more than that) and they all come forward as witnesses...I say more because not all (if any) would come forward.

c)porn, which usually has more than 4 witnesses present

SwedenMajidah

Zina is Zina ,no matter how it is
-secret or open
-married or unmarried
-with witnesses or without witnesses.
Can you tell me which word in arabic is used for "Adultery"?? where Quran has used that word ?

Peace,

I can only tell you my own understandings and hopefully sis Samia or someone else with arabic knowledge can give you exactly the translation you look for and where it is.

I guess Adultery and fornications are the same and they fall in the category of zina but only the public one the ones that are witnessed are the ones that can be put infront of the judge and there can be a penalty.

I don't think it's more difficult than that, really. God doesn't want to put too much on our shoulders to bear and He likes the repenters and the good-doers.

Peace
Maria

Allen

Peace,

I can only tell you my own understandings and hopefully sis Samia or someone else with arabic knowledge can give you exactly the translation you look for and where it is.

I guess Adultery and fornications are the same and they fall in the category of zina but only the public one the ones that are witnessed are the ones that can be put infront of the judge and there can be a penalty.

I don't think it's more difficult than that, really. God doesn't want to put too much on our shoulders to bear and He likes the repenters and the good-doers.

Peace
Maria

Dear Maria;
It is the question of Punishment.One should be crystal clear
-what is the difference between Zina and Adultery.
-Public act ?? ,show me the pre-requisite of four Witnesses for proving of Zina imentioned in the Quran .

unknownuser

Dear Maria;
It is the question of Punishment.One should be crystal clear
-what is the difference between Zina and Adultery.
-Public act ?? ,show me the pre-requisite of four Witnesses for proving of Zina imentioned in the Quran .

A - Adultery is a subset of "zina".

B - 244, 246, 2413, 415

Allen

A - Adultery is a subset of "zina".

B - 244, 246, 2413, 415

Please put the actual ayas (arabic text) and their translation here .Thanks
Along with please put the definition of Adultery and Zina and their respective Arabic equivalents used in the holy Quran.Thanks again