Question regarding Zina
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Brother Allen
what better explanation do you want than what Samia has already given you?
According to Koran a person is called a Zani , if there are 4 evidences to it (to make sure) and only then the punishment as such can be applied.
if you read , 24-2 ,3 the word Zani and punishment is used only in conjunction with 4 witness, and once you read further on 24-4,5,6, you will find that 4 witnesses requirement is not fulfilled, so the word Zina is not used , but only accusation is used, It does not say accusation of Zina.
A "fahisha" when not witnessed by 4, can only be termed as an accusation, and, becomes Zina, only when there are 4 witnesses.
siki
This is what Samia said
What's your definition of adultery?
I use the word "zina" not adultrey. I understand adultrey as a sexual act outside wedlock. If so, this is not the definition of zina. Unmarried people can also commit zina.
Honestly , ,my small brain could not catch.
Show what definition did she put for Zina ??
You say what better definition ?
Please I request you to
-- Precisely define the Zina and Adultery
--What is the arabic word for adultery
-- Where it is used in the Quran
---Where in the Quran it is said that to prove the act of Zina four witnesses are needed.
Kindly I request you to put the Arabic Ayaats + their translations .Only references are just to deceive the readers.
Thanks in advance -
Friends , we have a problem here
4.15-17 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way,If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful,God accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will God turn in mercy For God is full of knowledge and wisdom.
Can somebody explain above?
we have fornication/adultry/being committed , and we have 4 witnesses too, yet these women are not being labeled as Zanias, and even the punishement is different
I think brother Alen has a point.
siki
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Friends , we have a problem here
4.15-17 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way,If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful,God accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will God turn in mercy For God is full of knowledge and wisdom.
Can somebody explain above?
we have fornication/adultry/being committed , and we have 4 witnesses too, yet these women are not being labeled as Zanias, and even the punishement is different
I think brother Alen has a point.
siki
hmm What if a women accused some one that so and so person raped me does she need to produce four wetness's??????
peace
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hmm What if a women accused some one that so and so person raped me does she need to produce four wetness's??????
peace
Self testimony?
It seems more concerned with testimonies as opposed to physical witnesses, but in one case, four witnesses are required.
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Self testimony?
It seems more concerned with testimonies as opposed to physical witnesses, but in one case, four witnesses are required.
Yes that is what the sunni clergy men are saying but on earth will rap a lady in Asian are middle Eastern countries they will get kill that is not possible and asking a girl to produce 4 witnesses is not fair.
Or in other words men are allowed to rap girls if they are Alon?????
Then let me say this is not justice.
peace
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Yes that is what the sunni clergy men are saying but on earth will rap a lady in Asian are middle Eastern countries they will get kill that is not possible and asking a girl to produce 4 witnesses is not fair.
Or in other words men are allowed to rap girls if they are Alon?????
Then let me say this is not justice.
peace
All these confusions arise due to lack of precise definition of
1Zina
2Adultery
3Rape
If these are defined precisely then their ways of proving the act and punishments can be ascertained.Otherwise ignore ignore ignore ignore
How does Quran define them ?? -
Peace all,
I don't know why so many thinks that Quran should answer all questions you can possible have!?
Quran is fully detailed and it covers all subjects that is important for our morals and ethics. It gives us straight answers sometimes but also clues for further studies and pondering by its many tales and examples.
So why say that Quran lack something?
It's better to say that we lack in understanding of the common sense that God seems to point out, that we shall use, when He often says "of people who do understands" or "people who take heed" and "people who use their minds" etc.
It's not logic sense to claim that Quran shall cover all different kind of lets say crimes and also define their penalties. That's where a court is to be involved and they cannot sentence someone harder than the Quran advises. So to stone someone to death when actually Quran says 100 lashes is totally wrong. You can always judge milder but not harder.
Peace Maria
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Peace all,
I don't know why so many thinks that Quran should answer all questions you can possible have!?
Quran is fully detailed and it covers all subjects that is important for our morals and ethics. It gives us straight answers sometimes but also clues for further studies and pondering by its many tales and examples.
So why say that Quran lack something?
It's better to say that we lack in understanding of the common sense that God seems to point out, that we shall use, when He often says "of people who do understands" or "people who take heed" and "people who use their minds" etc.
It's not logic sense to claim that Quran shall cover all different kind of lets say crimes and also define their penalties. That's where a court is to be involved and they cannot sentence someone harder than the Quran advises. So to stone someone to death when actually Quran says 100 lashes is totally wrong. You can always judge milder but not harder.
Peace Maria
Then why to differentiate between Zina and Adultery when there is no such distinction ??
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Peace,
Well don't accuse me for doing that.
Maria
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Peace,
Well don't accuse me for doing that.
Maria
Dear
Look at in post what Samia saidSalaam Hadi
Welcome aboard the forum
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Those who had sex with a prostitute are not sound witnesses and their testimony is not accepted.
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Admission by her, yes. There is a procedure for that in front of an authority (a judge, for example).
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Are we now talking about adultery or zina? The punishment is for zina (public sex) and the case in number 2 above.
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No single person, other than the spouse, has the right to accuse another, otherwise they will be lashed 80 lashes (accusation without bringing 4 witnesses). Again, adultery is not zina as long as it is not witnessed by the spouse. Because it is nobody's business (other than the spouse) to report it and it does not affect them as it does the spouse. Of course he/she has the choice to keep quiet and solve the problem. If he/she does not want to continue in the marriage, he/she has to go to the judge and do the procedure. The accused also can deny the charge, but in either case they will be divorced.
Is she not trying to differentiate between adultery and Zina ??
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Peace siki,
Friends , we have a problem here
4.15-17 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way,If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful,God accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will God turn in mercy For God is full of knowledge and wisdom.
Can somebody explain above?
we have fornication/adultry/being committed , and we have 4 witnesses too, yet these women are not being labeled as Zanias, and even the punishement is different
This is about homosexuality ? confine them to house arrest until death or God finds another way/means and likewise the same punishment for two men so if they repent leave them be which includes the same for women in prior verse.
Keep in mind that Qur?an verse numbers were a later addition to assist recitation so the sequence 415-17 should be read as one continuous paragraph?
(٥
(٦
(٧
an-Nisa' (Women) 415-17
Literal
And those who came/do/commit (F) with the enormous deed/atrocious deed/ugly deed/saying/adultery/fornication/homosexuality from your women, so call a witness on them (F), four from you, so if they witnessed, so hold them (F) in the houses/homes until the death makes them (F) die, or God makes/manipulates for them (F) a way/means.And those who (B/M), they both come/do/commit it from you, so harm them (B), so if they (B) repented, and they (B) corrected, so turn away from them, that God was/is forgiving, merciful.
But the repentance (is) at God to those (who) make/do the bad/evil with ignorance/foolishness, then they repent from near/close, so those God forgives on them, and God was/is knowledgeable, wise/judicious.
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4.15-17 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way,If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful,God accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will God turn in mercy For God is full of knowledge and wisdom.
what i think of the above passage is
NOT every time we are able to catch people committing illegal sexual intercourse with the help of 4 witnesses, label them Zanis, and hence punish them with 100 lashes.
But when we know about some one that she is into kinda illegal sex , and 4 people can independently testify or come up with different kinda incident reporting regarding her, then , the above mentioned procedure apply.She is being blamed for committing Fahisha, not zina , because 4 people did not catch her doing the act.
siki
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[NOT every time we are able to catch people committing illegal sexual intercourse with the help of 4 witnesses, label them Zanis, and hence punish them with 100 lashes.
siki
To prove the act of Zina ,four witnesses are not required.Please define
-Zina
-Provide evidence from the Quran that 4-witnesses are required to prove the ACT OF ZINA. -
24-4 , and those who accuse the chaste women , and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,,,
When we do not have 4 witnesses , it is only an accusation, and the women is still being called A Mohsinna(chaste woman), but when we have 4 witnesses who can testify ,
then what do we call her?
and then would it still be only an accusation?
Here the answer is in 24-2 and 3, people are being addressed with the label Zanis, and the punishment is being prescribed.
But if we have circumstantial evidence ( 4 reliable) about some one that she is up to some kinda illegal sex , then she is not being called a Zani but being blamed for committing Fahisha , and being confined.
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24-4 , and those who accuse the chaste women , and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,,,
When we do not have 4 witnesses , it is only an accusation, and the women is still being called A Mohsinna(chaste woman), but when we have 4 witnesses who can testify ,
then what do we call her?
I hope you know the difference between
-Accused
-Convict
A person can be accused but it is not necessary that he is a convict also.
You see so many persons in the courts of law ,those are accused but later "crime " is not proved and those are exonerated.
Here Aya is describing
-Four witnesses for Accusation or charging NOT for the PROOF of act
-The provision of accussing with evidence of four witnesses is only and only for CHASTE ones not for every one.The Quran has not used the word " " but " ".Think over the selection of words by the Holy Quran.
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Peace Allen
17-32 you shall not commit Zina, it is a gross sin(fahisha) and an evil behaviour.
25-68 , zina is being rated along with shirk and murder.
60-12 , again zina is being rated as a major offence.
Zina is a subset of Fahisha(17-32), and is being rated as one of the major offences.
lane defines zina as fornication/adultery, and the only other meaning is , to mount, mounting.
In my opinion, Zina is the actual act of an illegal intercourse, where as Fawahisha could include lot of other illegal sexual activities being seen/witnessed , minus the witnessing of the actual act of mounting/couplation..
24-4 and those who accuse the Mohsinnats and then fail to bring 4 witnesses, flog them 80 lahses,,,,
Above aya indirectly proves the requirement of 4 witnesses to prove a sexual related charge, either for a general blame of illegal sexual involvement (4-15), or a proper illegal sexual intercourse/mounting charge(24-2).
As pointed, that the word used is Mohsinnat, not Nissa , indirectly indicates the Chastity related issue , because the opposite of a chaste women is, a fornicator/adulterous.
siki -
-The provision of accusing with evidence of four witnesses is only and only for CHASTE ones not for every one.The Quran has not used the word " " but " ".
Think over the selection of words by the Holy Quran.
Every one is chaste (mohsina) till proved otherwise (4 witnesses)
Nissa was used in 4-15 to indicate , a general , "your women" which could include one's Azwaj , MMA , daughters, sisters etc , any one that you can be concerned off, and you have control upon , so that you can confine them.
siki
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Peace Allen
17-32 you shall not commit Zina, it is a gross sin(fahisha) and an evil behaviour.
25-68 , zina is being rated along with shirk and murder.
60-12 , again zina is being rated as a major offence.
Zina is a subset of Fahisha(17-32), and is being rated as one of the major offences.
lane defines zina as fornication/adultery, and the only other meaning is , to mount, mounting.
In my opinion, Zina is the actual act of an illegal intercourse, where as Fawahisha could include lot of other illegal sexual activities being seen/witnessed , minus the witnessing of the actual act of mounting/couplation..
24-4 and those who accuse the Mohsinnats and then fail to bring 4 witnesses, flog them 80 lahses,,,,
Above aya indirectly proves the requirement of 4 witnesses to prove a sexual related charge, either for a general blame of illegal sexual involvement (4-15), or a proper illegal sexual intercourse/mounting charge(24-2).
As pointed by Allen that the word used is Mohsinnat, not Nissa , indirectly indicates the Chastity related issue , because the opposite of a chaste women is, a fornicator/adulterous.
siki
First of all i appreciate you at least you in this forum tried to look up in the Classical dictionary the meaning of "Zina".In Lane's lexicon you might have noticed the meaning of Zina include boht "fornication and Adultery".There is no difference between Zina and Adultery except that Zina is arabic word while adultery or fornication are English words.The English do make difference in Adultery and fornication but there is no such distinction in Islamic Laws.Zina is Zina no matter it is
-Open or secret
-married or unmarried
-Four witnesses present or not
Once it is proved 100 lashes is the answer.
As far following Aya is concerned
415
Here word Zina is used directly rather "Yaateen -al -Faahisha" is used
The word Fahisha has many meanings and Zina is no doubt one of them.But here it cannot mean Zina because of following reasons .- Here Four witnesses are compulsarily required for everyone not only for Muhsanaat as in our previous discussion
-These four witnesses are not for accusation rather for punishment because immediately after it punishment is describe in a conditional sentence
-punishment here is 'Imsaak -Fi -albayoot" not lashes.
Because one crime cannot have
-two different criteria for proof
-two different punishments
So Faahisha does not mean "Zina"
- Here Four witnesses are compulsarily required for everyone not only for Muhsanaat as in our previous discussion
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Every one is chaste (mohsina) till proved otherwise (4 witnesses)
Nissa was used in 4-15 to indicate , a general , "your women" which could include one's Azwaj , MMA , daughters, sisters etc , any one that you can be concerned off, and you have control upon , so that you can confine them.
siki
If every one is considered chaste unless proved otherwise then Allah would have specified it.Annisaa would have been sufficient.
In the society Categorically one may find three groups
Righteous people who apprently are obeying almighty Allah (their inner only Allah knows)
Those person who are outright disobeying Allah
Third group is nothing can be said about them.
This restriction of Four witnesses for accusing the chaste people is only to protect them for false allegations.
Do you think that four witness are required for the ladies sitting in the red light areas and earning money through prostitution?I do not know who has given the ipression of "sets or subsets " of the crime.Zina is a crime ,it is either comitted or not comitted ,nothing in -between.
There is no question of "sub sets" super sets " or union set " or some other set.