Let me get this straight: are traditionalists disbelievers or not?
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A "mushrik" is a person that has a blurred view of the reality. When one focuses on only one object in a scene, he is unable to see clearly the whole picture; this is the problem of ?al-mushrikeen?. They take objects, things, people, ideas from this creation and focus on them too much that they would kill for them. They are driven by desires and fantasies, be it theirs or someone else?s; fantasies detached from reality. They might trust the god, they might trust some of his laws, but they are led astray by the first group ?al-kuffar?. One who is dealing with such kind of people should be careful as his cannot expect their reactions, since they don?t fully follow the laws of this reality and might hurt him even unknowingly. It is like going to some places in India where they venerate cows, and try to slaughter your own cow for food; you cannot expect their reactions whilst some of them might be learned.
These 2 attributes gives a classification of people around, they might live under the same roof, in the same community, but still are different. You can find also those inclined to the peace and the trustworthy, to complete the spectrum of the human?s psyche.
This classification can be made besides any ?religious? affiliations; it works for every kind of people, for different regions and times.
So, people that you term as traditionalists (which may induce the idea of ?sacred? objects) are ?mushrikeen?, some of them are ?kafireen?. But remember that, not that long ago, many of us were (and might still are) one of them (mushrikeen), with all our good intentions, but the good washes away the bad fortunately, which is one of the laws of the god the creator.
This is but my understanding from the scripture, please feel free to correct if necessary.
Peace, is not a mushrik one who associates? Otherwise, I would agree with your comment.
Roshan
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Who are we to judge wheter a group of people labeled traditionalist should be labeled disbelievers or not...
You guys more and more becaming the Sunni's or Shia's scholar..
To them judging other people is a basic needs, a daily hobby.To me; judging other people is a bad habit..
With the standard you're applying to judge other people, the same standard will also be applied upon you, on the day of judgement.Peace
Dear Jafar
Tarikh is not without point.There is such a difference of emaan between traditionalists and Quran aloners that either one of them is definitely out of Islam.Both cannot be 'muslim' at one time. -
I was surprised to see many didnt consider traditionalists as disbelievers. Some confessed they go to trad mosques and pray there, others say they participate in eid, some get offended by the fact that i mentioned from chapter 63, traditionalists are amongst hypocrites who utter a false shahada.
So guys, finally, what is yr real position concerning traditionalists? Bear in mind that this site itself has articles such as 'why do muslims lose?' or 'warning to our loved ones'Salam.
Traditionalists are not disbelievers, they are wrong believers, they have faith, they believe but they don't believe right, that's all and also scary, for them at least.
Peace.
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Peace Roshan,
To "associate" is not bad by itself; I am now associating concepts with words, and associating these words to make sentences, and associating sentences with ideas... Association is one of the strongest capacities of humans, which helped us develop over the ages.
Now, for associating a thing with the god the creator, like me considering a chair as divine and praying to it hoping that it will help me in some situation would be stupid, I will not use it to sit on it if I am tired and it would hurt my feelings seeing others sitting on their chairs, which could result in an unexpected reaction from me towards people using their chair, and would cause me much trouble for nothing, just a false belief, and my life would be a living hell.
You can see that I would be acting out of the laws of this reality because a chair cannot be the creator. It is really as simple as that. You can see it in whatever religion you take all have some divine things, be it an object, a person, an idea. It is like considering the washing machine and its inventor as the same, it is indeed the worst misconception one can have, which prevents any further spiritual and material developement.
Many people know or believe there is a creator, but they go on further associating a thing from the creation with the creator, and that is the problem. And the worst are the people inventing such ideas of divinity of things and dragging the others with them into hell. One has to get his associations straight or straighten his relations, so to have a clearer view of this reality and elevate himself.
So YES a "mushrik billah" in the context of "al-quran" is one who associates a thing with the god.
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So far, no one has answered my inquiry. Everybody has beaten around the bush. -(
Peace Tarikh,
I believe people here are trying to avoid being judgmental and divisive which is perhaps a respectable stance, but can lead to permanent vascillation. I'm not sure it's the attitude God intended for the believers, but each to his own. I will tell you this; I consider myself to have been a Mushriq before; following Hadeeth and the opininions of Imams which is precicely Shirk. Hamd'Ullah I was saved from that!! hail
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I don't think it's fair to ask such a question to start with. It is only God who judges. Only He knows what's deep down in everyone's heart. People far away on Islands with no technology and no books believe in what? are they all going to hell? it's not for us to say!
No one knows how long they're going to live, but you have your whole life to find a path. God gives signs and chances to people.
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peace
well they can't be called 'disbelievers' since they do believe in God, i just don't know why they call us names and make a big deal about us not following hadith or why quranaloners make a big deal about them following hadith, it's not like they're setting up partners with God, neither are we, so why all this fighting/arguing? isn't it more important that we believe in God and last day and do good works?
569 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve
I consider myself to have been a Mushriq before; following Hadeeth and the opininions of Imams which is precicely Shirk.
how is following hadith or imams shirk?
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Peace nerspi, sorry to say this, but you haven't understood a thing about what God alone is. And to reply to the question about those who are far away in the islands, well i'm on an island yet i came to God alone thru an inborn monotheist intuition after being a traditionalist. Now what about aborigenes who live in the forest? R K got it right. We are born into such and such tribe or community according to our previous deeds in the 1st life or life before being born on earth. God chose some souls to be born as aborigenes and thus to be deprived of guidance. That's maybe cause in the 1st life, they were wicked, otherwise God would be unjust and God is never unjust.
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Peace nerspi, followin hadith is a great tragedy, it means you are not accepting God's book alone. Hadith are sometimes contradictory with quran. Shall we follow what men invented instead of what God decreed? Muslims execute adulterers by stoning them. Isn't that murder? Who said they have to be stoned to death? Hadith writers. If you believe in such hadith and participate in the stoning, aren't you a transgressor?
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Koran says follow Gospel and Torah and they are filled with hadiths.
Quran says follow gospel and torah, not hearsay of humans. Stating, that the true gospel and torah have no hearsay.
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For me i feel like the "traditionalists" don't take the Quran seriously. Like when God says that Quran is complete perfect, they keep thinking that there are divine revelations outside the Quran. Like when i say to a friend "but God say that quran is complete perfect" he says "well ok but you need hadith in order to explain the quran, because it's from the prophet ect..." but then why taking as a ruling hadiths "qudsi" as divine laws like stonning or how to pray or how to do hajj?
Or quoting the hadith instead of ayats of the quran, like when the friend said "prophet prohibited women to wear pants"
Well God says in the quran that women shouldn't show their beauties, their forms, to cover the torso...
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"but then why taking as a ruling hadiths "qudsi" as divine laws like stonning or how to pray or how to do hajj?
Hadith qudsi has no role in any law making. In fact, it's void of any rules or punishment. Just spritual. And beautiful.
Well God says in the quran that women shouldn't show their beauties, their forms, to cover the torso...
Torso? confused
And this becomes pants are forbidden!!!
How about tight skirts? Will that make skirts forbidden? -
Hadith qudsi has no role in any law making. In fact, it's void of any rules or punishment. Just spritual. And beautiful.
Torso? confused
And this becomes pants are forbidden!!!
How about tight skirts? Will that make skirts forbidden?No, that makes hats forbidden.