Let me get this straight: are traditionalists disbelievers or not?
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I was surprised to see many didnt consider traditionalists as disbelievers. Some confessed they go to trad mosques and pray there, others say they participate in eid, some get offended by the fact that i mentioned from chapter 63, traditionalists are amongst hypocrites who utter a false shahada.
So guys, finally, what is yr real position concerning traditionalists? Bear in mind that this site itself has articles such as 'why do muslims lose?' or 'warning to our loved ones' -
Not everyone here believes the same thing. We share our opinions and learn new things from each other. That is the beauty of this forum. We don't have to agree on things. I think that the only thing that most people on here truly agree on is to agree to disagree.
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Dear Brother Tarikh,
You may want to thoroughly research all of the passages in the quran that has to do with sectarianism, idol-worship and disbelief. You'd be surprised as to the reality of this situation and how many people do not realize that they are just as sectarian and as guilty of shirk and kufr as the ones that they are pointing their own fingers at. Take a look at the thread started by Nerspi on the causes of sects.
Peace be with you,
Damon. -
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Salaam Brother Tarikh,
Peace
it's not at all about sects. It's about believers and disbelievers. If you follow sources other than quran, are you a disbeliever or not?But your question IS all about sects. You are taking the position of rivalry/difference between yourself and the traditional muslims and you are also pointing the finger of 'Kufr' at them. This is exactly what the Sunni and Shiah sect do to those who claim the Ahlul Quran way of thinking.
You should analyze your opening post and once again ask yourself WHO ELSE (beside the traditionalists) may be guilty of disbelief. You should keep Quran 4213-14 , 3105 , 3031-32 , 9107 , 2352-54 in mind as you do this...
I was surprised to see many didnt consider traditionalists as disbelievers. Some confessed they go to trad mosques and pray there, others say they participate in eid, some get offended by the fact that i mentioned from chapter 63, traditionalists are amongst hypocrites who utter a false shahada.
So guys, finally, what is yr real position concerning traditionalists? Bear in mind that this site itself has articles such as 'why do muslims lose?' or 'warning to our loved ones'Salaam,
Damon. -
The non-sectarians are those who follow the Quran to its fullest extent, by virtue of its own logic.
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Salaam Brother Tarikh,
But your question IS all about sects. You are taking the position of rivalry/difference between yourself and the traditional muslims and you are also pointing the finger of 'Kufr' at them. This is exactly what the Sunni and Shiah sect do to those who claim the Ahlul Quran way of thinking.
You should analyze your opening post and once again ask yourself WHO ELSE (beside the traditionalists) may be guilty of disbelief. You should keep Quran 4213-14 , 3105 , 3031-32 , 9107 , 2352-54 in mind as you do this...
Salaam,
Damon.Good point. People do no realize that God can be reached in multiple of ways. To each is his own.
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; Surah 5 Verse 48
5.18. (Both) the Jews and the Christians say "We are sons of God, and his beloved." Say "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth and to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"
Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . 262
And they say "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. 2.111-113
If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them 4.124
"O you mankind! We have created you from a single pair of male and female and made you into nations and tribes so that you know each other. Verily the most honored in the sight of God is the one who is most righteous" (4913).
God is everyone's God.
17.13. Every man's fate We have fastened on his own neck On the Day of Judgment We shall bring out for him a scroll, which he will see spread open.
17.14."Read thine record Sufficient is thy soul this day to make out an account against thee."
On the day that God raises up all men for the accounting to make them aware of the results of all the deeds He has recorded and they have forgotten; indeed God is a Witness to all creatures in the world" (586).
Everyone who will be on his own.
80.33-42 At length, when there comes the Deafening Noise,- That Day shall a man flee from his own brother, And from his mother and his father, And from his wife and his children. Each one of them, that Day, will have enough concern to make him indifferent to the others. Some faces that Day will be beaming, laughing, rejoicing. And other faces that Day will be dust-stained, Blackness will cover them Such will be the Rejecters of God, the doers of iniquity. &
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So far, no one has answered my inquiry. Everybody has beaten around the bush. -(
Because you answered it yourself (the second question thus far)
I was surprised to see many didnt consider traditionalists as disbelievers.
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Peace,
A "kafir" is a person that is not trustworthy, a person that is aggressive and hurting people knowingly. This kind of people don't trust anyone neither, even the one that created them when it is him that is keeping their heart beating and their mind working, they are always scheming and planning to have more riches, be more powerful... They are selfish and abusive. They know the laws of this reality but only use them for their own profit or to hurt others, thus rejecting a part of these very laws, the laws of the god. Their behaviour is very well described in the scripture. Certainly, them adoring their ego more than anything else makes them from "al-mushkrine".
A "mushrik" is a person that has a blurred view of the reality. When one focuses on only one object in a scene, he is unable to see clearly the whole picture; this is the problem of ?al-mushrikeen?. They take objects, things, people, ideas from this creation and focus on them too much that they would kill for them. They are driven by desires and fantasies, be it theirs or someone else?s; fantasies detached from reality. They might trust the god, they might trust some of his laws, but they are led astray by the first group ?al-kuffar?. One who is dealing with such kind of people should be careful as his cannot expect their reactions, since they don?t fully follow the laws of this reality and might hurt him even unknowingly. It is like going to some places in India where they venerate cows, and try to slaughter your own cow for food; you cannot expect their reactions whilst some of them might be learned.
These 2 attributes gives a classification of people around, they might live under the same roof, in the same community, but still are different. You can find also those inclined to the peace and the trustworthy, to complete the spectrum of the human?s psyche.
This classification can be made besides any ?religious? affiliations; it works for every kind of people, for different regions and times.
So, people that you term as traditionalists (which may induce the idea of ?sacred? objects) are ?mushrikeen?, some of them are ?kafireen?. But remember that, not that long ago, many of us were (and might still are) one of them (mushrikeen), with all our good intentions, but the good washes away the bad fortunately, which is one of the laws of the god the creator.
This is but my understanding from the scripture, please feel free to correct if necessary.
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Peace
it's not at all about sects. It's about believers and disbelievers. If you follow sources other than quran, are you a disbeliever or not?I believe that knowingly twisting the words of the Quran. Being aware of the contradictions between Quran and Hadith, yet still following the Hadith would make you a disbeliever.
Al
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Do you mean to say that traditionalists are a sect and quranaloners are another?
This is precisley what I am saying. You can take the quran as your only source of knowledge of Deen, but you don't have to take on an unnecessary adjective (quranaloner), stick to your prefered group (quranaloners) and completely shun and have rivalry with the other groups (traditional muslims). If one does all of these things, then he/she is guilty of sectarianism and 'Kufr' no matter which sect they incline themselves to.
I dont get it. So according to yr logic, we must consider traditionalists and quranaloners as followin the same religion but divided into sect.
Well for starters, Deen is not religion. Shi'ah and Madhhab are more suitable to be understood as religion. But to answer your question, yes, they both say that they follow the Deen yet each of them goes his own seperate way to do his own thing while saying that his way is THE way and that the others got it totally wrong.
So far, no one has answered my inquiry. Everybody has beaten around the bush. -(
Your question has been answered, you're just not satisfied with the answer that was given to you.
More importantly, the very answer that you seek is all throughout the quran. It is our responsibility to read it and seek this answer ourselves.
Peace be with you,
Damon.