The ?God Alone? Challenge
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savage_carrot,
you cannot prove that FM is clarifying issues about Islam. and this is okay with you? Meaning, if it is doing damage you dont care? That seem illogical to me.
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Peace, can anyone tell me why you all like to use the expression 'islamic reform'?
It seems that to reform means to change something with positive expectations. Beliefs of people are not something we can reform. Tariq Ramadan considers himself as a reformer too but yet relies on hadith. All his efforts as a so called reformer hasn't yielded anything. We've seen a rise in intolerance and islamophobia.
There is nothing to reform in islam. The quran is complete. people need to be reformed, but only themselves can do that, and only then God guides them. So, finally what is there to reform? -
Peace, can anyone tell me why you all like to use the expression 'islamic reform'?
It seems that to reform means to change something with positive expectations. Beliefs of people are not something we can reform. Tariq Ramadan considers himself as a reformer too but yet relies on hadith. All his efforts as a so called reformer hasn't yielded anything. We've seen a rise in intolerance and islamophobia.
There is nothing to reform in islam. The quran is complete. people need to be reformed, but only themselves can do that, and only then God guides them. So, finally what is there to reform?Tariq Ramadan is a scam.
As far as progressive Muslims, i am not sure what it is. If its a progressive movement to progress islam by returning Muslims to accept only Koran, then it can not do more than this. If its about interpretating the Koran in a progressive matter, it will only achieve what it can once people accept the Koran as the sole or pivotal authority in Islam. This is because you can not control the interpretation of the Koran. Persuading people to return to the Koran is a very broad based objective. This is because very Muslim on Eartrh accepts its authority and is aware of what it is. Even if he is not aware of what it actually says. Everyone will interpret it in different ways, not much different from here.
You can't control the Koran and thus won't be able to control its interpretation. There are no madhabs and Isnad methodologies and different variations to thwart the average person from interpreting the Koranic verses. Everyone has access to it. No need to get educated through fiqh and no need to be certified and you don't need to go to some college or even library.
But thats whats great about the Koran. Its nobody's property and for everybody.
As far as organizations, well they can contribute by awareness and providing material and forums for debate. But no human can control a movement as broad and as universal as the Koran following movement.
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savage_carrot,
you cannot prove that FM is clarifying issues about Islam. and this is okay with you? Meaning, if it is doing damage you dont care? That seem illogical to me.
Who is it doing damage to exactly? Can they not come to the forum, if it is so damaging? This forum helps me a lot, honestly. It is all subjective. If FM damages/hurts/bothers people, no one is forcing them to come here.
I really don't understand what the problem/question is?
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Who is it doing damage to exactly? Can they not come to the forum, if it is so damaging? This forum helps me a lot, honestly. It is all subjective. If FM damages/hurts/bothers people, no one is forcing them to come here.
I really don't understand what the problem/question is?
Maybe its politics and question about leaderships and personality clashes. But I think SHM may know things we don't.
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Savage-Carrot
Quote from Rajah
Very nicely you have described the mentality of FM/PM.Quote from Rajah
As you seem to care much about grammar and spellings, I am sorry; in both I am weak.Based on the former quote, I would add comprehension and logic to the latter list and would suggest posting constructively from now on, instead of uselessly generalising and attacking/accusing.
Thank you for your advice.
But the fact is you said "Does it matter what the majority agrees with?
It's what we ourselves find"
This statement of yours gives a view of an autocratic personaility and I think many members of PM/FM have the same point of view as you have, so I just expressed it IT is nothing Personal.SHM has valid points.
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But the fact is you said "Does it matter what the majority agrees with?
It's what we ourselves find"
This statement of yours gives a view of an autocratic personaility and I think many members of PM/FM have the same point of view as you have, so I just expressed it IT is nothing Personal.The "statement gives the the view of an autocratic personality"?
You think many members of PM/FM have the same point of view as I so that makes them "autocratic personalities"?
Autocratic
An autocracy is a form of government in which the political power is held by a single self appointed ruler, usually a dictator.
1 of, relating to, or being an autocracy absolute <an autocratic government>
2 characteristic of or resembling an autocrat despotic <an autocratic ruler>Please explain how that statement relates to an "autocratic personality". Bear in mind, the we was definitely not referring to the admin/mods, as is obvious.
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The "statement gives the the view of an autocratic personality"?
You think many members of PM/FM have the same point of view as I so that makes them "autocratic personalities"?
Autocratic
An autocracy is a form of government in which the political power is held by a single self appointed ruler, usually a dictator.
1 of, relating to, or being an autocracy absolute <an autocratic government>
2 characteristic of or resembling an autocrat despotic <an autocratic ruler>Please explain how that statement relates to an "autocratic personality". Bear in mind, the we was definitely not referring to the admin/mods, as is obvious.
Please explain first in easy english what you are asking me to explain? I am not able to understand specially the one in red.
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Please explain first in easy english what you are asking me to explain? I am not able to understand specially the one in red.
Please explain how does that statement relate to an "autocratic personality"? Forget anything else, just explain the relation of that statement with autocratic.
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Savage-Carrot
Please explain how does that statement relate to an "autocratic personality"? Forget anything else, just explain the relation of that statement with autocratic.
Your statement
"Does it matter what the majority agrees with?
It's what we ourselves find.Democracy Where it does matter what the majority agrees with
Autocracy where it doesnot matter what the majority agrees with
I can't make it simpler.
Have a nice day.
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Savage-Carrot
Your statement
"Does it matter what the majority agrees with?
It's what we ourselves find.Democracy Where it does matter what the majority agrees with
Autocracy where it doesnot matter what the majority agrees with
I can't make it simpler.
Have a nice day.
Umm, I think she means it's what everyone finds individually, since we're all at different levels. This is actually a higher plateau of "democracy" and freedom. It does not exclude people and force them to follow pointless traditions in order to be a "Muslim." Everyone is happy with what they have on their own level, while still following the quran. Perhaps you should check who has the real "autocratic personality"
Peace
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Thanks bro Navid for the succint explanation. I think it's pointless to go further with this due to obvious reasons .
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Umm, I think she means it's what everyone finds individually, since we're all at different levels. This is actually a higher plateau of "democracy" and freedom. It does not exclude people and force them to follow pointless traditions in order to be a "Muslim." Everyone is happy with what they have on their own level, while still following the quran. Perhaps you should check who has the real "autocratic personality"
Peace
Well; you are also un-official speaker for Savage-Carrot, I did not knew about that. You still have several un answered questions in different threads, where I called you to respond but you did not and now i know the reason
Savage-carrot
Few months back when some one asked me is there any Muslim Forum where you can discuss anything you want without any fear? without banning or getting abused? I referred them to Free-minds, but it was before Ahmed Baghat and myself( for a week or so) getting a ban on the forum. I think most of the moderators and Administrators of this site are sensitive on many issues and I am trying to avoid direct involvement with them debating so may be I would not be banned in future.
When I joined the forum may be 2005 the traffic was slow with only few active members, but it was contribution of each and every member of the forum including Me, Ahmed or any one who got banned to get a fame it desrves.Remember Islam is Unity, If it would have been personal, no pain would have been taken by these messangers to teach us. So you are telling us that Majority does not matter is a cry far away.
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Well; you are also un-official speaker for Savage-Carrot, I did not knew about that. You still have several un answered questions in different threads, where I called you to respond but you did not and now i know the reason
I am trying to avoid direct involvement with them debating so may be I would not be banned in future.
But "indirect involvement" by insulting their names is fine, no matter.
When I joined the forum may be 2005 the traffic was slow with only few active members, but it was contribution of each and every member of the forum including Me, Ahmed or any one who got banned to get a fame it desrves.
Maybe we should have a Wall of Fame nopeRemember Islam is Unity, If it would have been personal, no pain would have been taken by these messangers to teach us. So you are telling us that Majority does not matter is a cry far away.
If even after pointing it out, one still doesn't get it...I do feel like crying far away but I'll restrain myself. -
Is it really that hard of a concept to grasp? Withon the people who choose to follow the quran, there is no "majority" or "minority," everyone is free to go by their own understanding at their level. This is an even higher level of freedom. Everyone goes at their pace in striving to become a better muslim with their own unique understandings and view, while at the same time following all quranic laws. AND we are all at peace with each other. This is undeniable fact, and very easy to understand. Perhaps an example will help
Let's say we lived in a democracy, where we all voted for who the president will be. The majority would obviously win and some would be left to be stuck with whoever was voted in, unhappily. Now, imagine a society (although impossible in politics) where everyone got who they voted for, and were still following the rules. This is what we have. You have a misconception that a group where the majority doesn't agree on everything, they're automatically "autocratic." Whereas we have surpassed that level and are the exact opposite. I hope this helps
Peace
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Dargento
If the majority is so bloody important, you should be following jesus! Follow his way! Or you are doomed! Doomed I tell ya!
Your way is through Jesus christ!
Yeah it is so bloody important, otherwise Prophet would not try to convert people all over Arabia, he would have been rather confined with Minority of followers he had.
I love Jesus! D
Allei lou ya; Allei lou ya.
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Dargento
Yeah it is so bloody important, otherwise Prophet would not try to convert people all over Arabia, he would have been rather confined with Minority of followers he had.The prophet was not trying to convert anybody. He was delivering a message. He had no control over anyone.
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Samia
The prophet was not trying to convert anybody. He was delivering a message. He had no control over anyone.
Funny as usual, your posts are treat to read
Prophet was delivering a Message; why?
- Without any purpose
- He wanted people to be as they were after listening to his Message
- He wanted them to embrace Islam
Any balance minded person knows it is #3.
He fought wars for this purpose, he took capitives, he travelled, he killed, he pardoned.