Does Quran prohibit ?
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Peace
Yes, I believe the discrimination exists between the sexes in this instance. I believe a society based on quranic principles embodies the male having to follow specific duties in which he has a right to more than one wife so long as he can meet his duties.
Joe
You want to say that Quran advocates 'sex discrimination"??
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I think we are confusing possibility with right. The aya where that possibility is given refers to orphans and women without means and poligamy is contemplated only in that context. It is not that the male is given a right, but it is made possible for the society to have orhphans and destitute or un protected women to be provided for. It is rather the right of those orphans and women that is protected, not the right of any male to have x wives. If later fiqh has made it a right for men, then they were already not following the qur'an.
As to why women do not have a right to have more husbands, it is obvious that if there is shortage of men and you want women to have more than one husband, the shortage of men will be greater and more men will find themselves having to make use of their "right" to have still more women.
We can go on and imagine a situation where there are many men destitute with orphans and women are in a much smaller number and in a much better situation to afford a burdening themselves with more husbands and orphans. That way we will satisfy the theoretical principle of equality of problems between the sexes, but I don't remember that there has ever bee such situation, and all one could do is just dream that such a situation will sometime arise, where not only men and their orphans are in difficulties, but that there are in fact many more men than women and that many of those men are in fact in greater difficulties that all women. But if such situation arises, obviously in equity a solution that is as satisfactory as in the case of this aya could be applied.
To make it short men and women have equal right to be protected by society. The marriage for the sake of taking care of orphans and unprotected women is a possibility afforded to make effective that protection.
Salaam
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I think we are confusing possibility with right. The aya where that possibility is given refers to orphans and women without means and poligamy is contemplated only in that context. It is not that the male is given a right, but it is made possible for the society to have orhphans and destitute or un protected women to be provided for. It is rather the right of those orphans and women that is protected, not the right of any male to have x wives. If later fiqh has made it a right for men, then they were already not following the qur'an.
As to why women do not have a right to have more husbands, it is obvious that if there is shortage of men and you want women to have more than one husband, the shortage of men will be greater and more men will find themselves having to make use of their "right" to have still more women.
We can go on and imagine a situation where there are many men destitute with orphans and women are in a much smaller number and in a much better situation to afford a burdening themselves with more husbands and orphans. That way we will satisfy the theoretical principle of equality of problems between the sexes, but I don't remember that there has ever bee such situation, and all one could do is just dream that such a situation will sometime arise, where not only men and their orphans are in difficulties, but that there are in fact many more men than women and that many of those men are in fact in greater difficulties that all women. But if such situation arises, obviously in equity a solution that is as satisfactory as in the case of this aya could be applied.
To make it short men and women have equal right to be protected by society. The marriage for the sake of taking care of orphans and unprotected women is a possibility afforded to make effective that protection.
Salaam
So according to Quranist explanation ,if there are 10 men and one woman on an island.All ten can marry one woman.
bravo bravo -
So according to Quranist explanation ,if there are 10 men and one woman on an island.All ten can marry one woman.
bravo bravoI'm sorry but I fail to see how you arrived at this conclusion from the posts above. What Br. huruf explained was that polygamy can only be for the sake of orphans and women without means. I hope that none of your posts are due to any personal animosity but due to genuine curiosity to learn the truth.
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I'm sorry but I fail to see how you arrived at this conclusion from the posts above. What Br. huruf explained was that polygamy can only be for the sake of orphans and women without means. I hope that none of your posts are due to any personal animosity but due to genuine curiosity to learn the truth.
Look at his middle paragraph
We can go on and imagine a situation where there are many men destitute with orphans and women are in a much smaller number and in a much better situation to afford a burdening themselves with more husbands and orphans. That way we will satisfy the theoretical principle of equality of problems between the sexes, but I don't remember that there has ever bee such situation, and all one could do is just dream that such a situation will sometime arise, where not only men and their orphans are in difficulties, but that there are in fact many more men than women and that many of those men are in fact in greater difficulties that all women. But if such situation arises, obviously in equity a solution that is as satisfactory as in the case of this aya could be applied.
In principle he agrees that many husband for one woman.
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Good point.I appreciate.
Since this order is for believer males.
It means muslims females can marry with as many non-muslim husbands as she likes.
Or you want to say that males are
-allowed upto four wives in some situation
-females are allowed only one husband.
Then what about gender equality ?The order is for both. What makes you think that the address is to men only?
Leoxyz, (I am addressing you with your first personality's name), instead of wasting time reincarnating again and again, it would be better if you try to learn something, if you even care to learn
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I apologize...
423 & 24 - "Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers' sisters, and your mothers' sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful. And the already married from the women ( Mohsinnati), except those who become widowed; God's scripture is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with them, then you shall give them their wage as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise."
2432 - "And marry off those among you that are single, and the good from among your male and female servants. If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable."
Hope that helps.
Peace
The above Red translation is wrong. The translators have translated the word Mohsinnati as married women. which is incorrect. It simply means chaste women.
kindly recheck the arabic right in the next verse . Not only that , the word Ma Malakat Amnakum, has been translated as " those who become widowed" , what a blatant, lie by the translator( who so ever he is).This is the reason as to why i have learned, "Never Trust a translator". Almost all of them are wrong to a certain extent. One must always check the arabic.4-25 And who so of you cannot afford to marry free believing women,( Mohsinnnati ul mominati) let him marry what your right hands possess, namely your believing hand-maids. And Allah knows your faith best; you are all one from another; so marry them with the leave of their masters and give them their dowries, according to what is fair, they being chaste, not committing fornication, nor taking secret paramours. And if, after they are married, they are guilty of lewdness, they shall have half the punishment prescribe for free married women. This is for him among you who fears lest he should commit sin. And that you restrain yourselves is better for you; and Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
siki
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Salaam, dear all, I am sister, not a brother,
About that island where ten men would be caught with just one woman, man, do as you please, but first of all, remember that the one woman must really agree to be wed to ten men. Something, which from the way you start seems to be the least of your concerns and shows that in fact you don't give a damn about women's rights, you are just splitting hairs, because autmatically you are assuming that the only woman would have to satisfy ten men's urges. In fact, nothing new. We are used to the way in which hypocrites have always turned any right afforded to women in an obligation imposed on women. So now you are solving the problem of the ten men imposing on her ten husbands without even considering that in fact she might not even be in the mood for one. Another thing that you have forgotten is that those ten men on the island do not seem to be in a worse condition than the woman to need her protection, nor are accompanied by any orphans... So in fact what you are saying is that men always have the right to help themselves to whatever there is... Which is where many of those advocating this kind of rights for women always show that the least of their concerns is in fact what women want, but they just use any opening to distort injunctions whose purpose and conditions are clearly spelled out. The unprotected in that island of yours, among ten men, would certainly be the woman, not the ten men. So go back there to that mental island of yours and keep pondering about your "rights" to help yourself.
As to the meaning of that part of my message that says
Quote
We can go on and imagine a situation where there are many men destitute with orphans and women are in a much smaller number and in a much better situation to afford a burdening themselves with more husbands and orphans. That way we will satisfy the theoretical principle of equality of problems between the sexes, but I don't remember that there has ever bee such situation,....What I was trying to say is that the situations where the need to have more than one husband paralleling the need described in the Qur'an to have more than one wife, for the moment seems merely speculative, because I do not know that it ever happens or has happened nor is likely to happen that in fact in times of difficulty women are in much fewer numbers while at the same time they are in much better position of means and strength and not burdened by orphans than men. Usually in wars and other calamities women and children are always worse off than men and therefore the situation equivalent to the one described in the Qur'an is a matter of speculation, so that those that want to say that the Qur'an gives more rights to men than women can have their way, no matter what reality is. If that situation ever arose, as I have said, men and orphans would also have to be protected by the most expedient means at hand.
Oh? and as to the right of women to have multiple sex partners, it has always existed, it is called prostitution, again, a woman's right turned into an imposition that has not resulted in elevating women's standing, nor is likely to result in the future. Is that the island the hawk had in mind?
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Br. siki, thank you for your input on the word "Mohsinnati". I took the translation from www.openburhan.net and it was a Free Minds translation. I'll look up any discussions on the forum about the two words to clarify them to myself.
I apologize profusely for addressing you inappropriately, Sis. huruf. I am still new on this forum and still have only interacted with a few people here. I assure you that I won't make the same mistake again. As for your explanation, I still am having a hard time reconciling your explanation to the Book. But I will continue my endeavour to understand your point of view.
Peace
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The order is for both. What makes you think that the address is to men only?
Leoxyz, (I am addressing you with your first personality's name), instead of wasting time reincarnating again and again, it would be better if you try to learn something, if you even care to learn
Learning from whome ?? Quranist scholars like following "classical knowledge example???
Salaam POF
"Rijaal" does not primarily mean "men". It means those who seek; on foot. It could be "men" or "women". Also, "nisaa'" is not the plural of "imra'a" but the plural of "nas' " the delayed; remainder, left behind. We find both meanings in the quraan.
This is "Knowledge" of Arabic speaking person who is holding Lisaan ul Arab also.
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whome are you talking about??
Why are you evading the question of your PEARL of knowledge about "Nisaa" ??
Would you please let me know the source of your knowledge ??I am not evading any thing. I am asking a serious question Are/were you Leoxyz? Yes or no will do
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The translators have translated the word Mohsinnati as married women. which is incorrect. It simply means chaste women...
Not only that , the word Ma Malakat Aymanukum, has been translated as " those who become widowed", what a blatant, lie by the translator( who so ever he is).
siki,
The married women in the translation corresponds to mohsanaati min an-nisaa. Nisaa = women. That is; there is women in the Arabic text. So the mohsanaat are the chaste ones of the nisaa. Who are those nisaa?
In the previous verse the nisaa are mentioned as wives (ummahaatu nisaa ikum mothers of your wives) and as mothers (nisaa ikumu'l?tee dahaltum bihinyour wives whom you have slept with).
Wives and mothers are both married. And since the conjunction wa in the beginning of 424 joins this verse in meaning to the previous one, we must conclude that the mohsanaati min an-nisaa are chaste ones of the married women.
Am I wrong?
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Salaam Hasan, all, especially those who think muhsanaat=chaste
It is easy to find out if a woman is married or not; but chaste? How? Are we going to follow rumors, forgetting verses496; 244 (muhsanaat can also commit fahisha 425). Even a convicted zaania is considered chaste after serving her punishment (245). How can you divide women, especially believing women (since marrying an idolatress or a non believer is prohibited) into chaste and not chaste?
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Peace
You want to say that Quran advocates 'sex discrimination"??
Do you want me to say that? whatever
If we are keeping in line with the context I had mentioned before than yes. Of course those who fail to discriminate between the sexes may have a little judgement problem.
Joe
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whome are you talking about??
Why are you evading the question of your PEARL of knowledge about "Nisaa" ??
Would you please let me know the source of your knowledge ??Do you realize you're not fooling anyone who's seen your previous incarnations, Leoxyz?
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Salaam Hasan, all, especially those who think muhsanaat=chaste
It is easy to find out if a woman is married or not; but chaste? How? Are we going to follow rumors, forgetting verses496; 244 (muhsanaat can also commit fahisha 425). Even a convicted zaania is considered chaste after serving her punishment (245). How can you divide women, especially believing women (since marrying an idolatress or a non believer is prohibited) into chaste and not chaste?
"Chaste women" is actulaly the wrong translation of "mohsanaat" but it has to be used in order to save words. Mohsanaat (with SAD) actually means women under protection. All muslim women are under the protection of Islam.
However, some non-muslim women such as the Jews and Christians are mohsanaat too "mohsanaat"u min ellez?na uutu'l Kitab (55). Can we assume that they are self-protected?
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Salaam Hasan, all, especially those who think muhsanaat=chaste
It is easy to find out if a woman is married or not; but chaste? How? Are we going to follow rumors, forgetting verses496; 244 (muhsanaat can also commit fahisha 425). Even a convicted zaania is considered chaste after serving her punishment (245). How can you divide women, especially believing women (since marrying an idolatress or a non believer is prohibited) into chaste and not chaste?
Dear Samia
Where have you been learning Arabic ???
The actual verse is244
245
245 is clearly about those ones who accuse the chaste women.How is it declaring Zania females to be 'Chaste".
Before you said that- "Rajulun" does not primarily means "man"
- "Nisaa" is not plural of "imraatun"
Is this the standard of Quranist scholarship ???