perhaps i am not a Muslim...
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i think this belongs here...
i know that i believe in One God, the God of Life, and that He brings us together and gives us strength. i believe in the importance of compassion, humility, gratitude, and prayerfulness.
what troubles me are those verses in the Quran that refer to the specific military exploits of Mohammed. i do have to ask, why would God include these events in His book, if this book is supposed to be an eternal, trans-historical message of peace and unity? why would verses be included that would later be so interpreted to call for violence, if God knows best human nature and our tendency to be rigid and spiteful?
there is a lot of truth in the Quran. but as a Muslim, i must continually apologize for or explain away the very real violence within the faith in general, and even from a Quran-alone perspective that can be difficult, with ayat like 2191 and 95.
i also do not think that an understanding of God can be limited to one text or messenger. after all, there are Baha'is and Sikhs who work for peace and who adore the One God.
what do you think? perhaps i am not a Muslim. forgive me if this sounds silly, but there are, within the Jewish fold, people called Bnei Noah.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B'nei_Noah
could there be something like this for those who believe in God, and worship God alone, but who may not adhere to the Quran or follow Muhammed?
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanif
i mean... Muhammed apparently lead armies, had his enemies killed, such things. should we embrace this, should we have to continuously apologize for this or explain it away?
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Peace to all,
Ayani, I dont think theres anything in the Quran we should apologize for, even if you think a few verses are pointless and violent I dont agree, others may or may not, remember, God has a purpose for us which we dont know and the angels dont even know, and a thing we think may be bad for us is actually good and vice versa. I hate all forms of violence, I hate to see anyone in pain, even evil and bad people, it is repulsive to our human nature, but we are being tested and oppression is worse than slaughter, and God says there are times that fighting is prescribed for us and this is always in defense and according to justice, there is nothing wrong with this. And God also says he keeps us in balance by having one fight against another, otherwise we would see churches and mosques tore down, so if someone didnt fight back then only the evil and unjust ones would win, tyhough we may not like it, we may need to do it as long as we do not aggress or transgress.
Only God knows best,
Kurt
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Kurt-
peace to you, brother.
i agree that struggle is neccesary sometimes. but must we attack or kill others for there to be struggle?
i still have questions... and doubts. surely there is a lot of beauty and truth in the Quran that far outweighs anything else. yet there are passages that, again and again, angry men and women have used to justify murder, oppression, and violence. why would God put these verses in if He knows full well our nature, and our tendency to be rash and want revenge? i question this... surely, Christianity has had an often violent history, yet the teachings of Jesus call undeniably for forgiveness, humility, and peace. even so, Christians have been violent / murderous in the name of faith.
yet there is so much of this within Islam, that it kind of leaves me at a loss. yes, the hadith tend to add fuel to this. but what of the Quran? what of those passages that are distinctly militaristic and historic, and have been, centuries later, taken to mean "we should still fight and kill"?
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Peace Ayani,
I can understand your thoughts about this because I have had similiar thoughts myself. Violence is for me so awful and disgusting so I cannot see it in a holy scripture as something to uphold.
But my thoughts had lead me to that fact that Prophet Muhammad is the author to Al-Quran. He got incredible visions when he turned to the higher power(Universum) and He got it a call to spread his visions and therefore it came into a scripture(Al-Quran).
Look at all big scientists like Einstein, Gerald Ford, Graham Bell etc it started out with a vision they had and then it came in form of a car, a telephone.
We humanbeings has created all this with our powerful thoughts and visions our longings for something new and amazing.We are our own Gods, we have thoughts and visions and we send it out to the Higher force in Universe who receive it and send it back to us in a more powerful way.
That is what people call God, but put a name on something is no problem but to think that this force decide and create everything is wrong because it is we who create our own lives, we have a free will to decide and wish whatever we like and we get what we wish for if we want it and ask for it in a serious way. Therefore it's never good to wish bad things upon someone, because it will fall back on yourself when you use bad and negative energy.
The law of the Universe is in fact the law of attraction and it exists in all religions but have been covered of other things humans have misunderstood and therfore it's such a mess of who is right and who is wrong and pointing fingers all the time.
If only people could woke up and realize that all their rituals are only time wasting things that has no purpose, life on earth would be much better and in more harmony.
You are the boss, you decide what to do and you start visualize your goals and the energy force in universe reply but cannot change your plans if you don't change it yourself.
The force is very righteous and fair because when you ask for good causes you will get it back in much more goodness but if you ask for bad and evil causes you re the one who suffer when it comes back to you.
So when you read all holy scriptures there are much talk about being good, fair, just, and humble yourself, yes of course because when you are these attributes you are a winner. You can never be a winner if you ask for bad things, bad people will ruin themselves and they will be losers.
So sister Ayani, maybe i'm not a muslim or not if you ask someone who think God is the one who decide everything...........
But I'm not sad to lose a label on me, I am Maria and I follow what my heart and mind has lead me to and after soon 35 years of age I have reached to the conclusion that during so many years I have lived in a lie. But finally I have reached my goal of being guided on the right path and now I'm in the driver seats, I have the power to change my life in the direction I want if I'm true in my visions and I believe I deserves it.
Peace
Maria -
Maria~
i would agree with you, Sister. God transcends out texts, our visons, and our ideas. i love the Quran very much, but there are those kinks in the hose, so to speak, that give pause.
i am not really sad to lose a label eitehr, should it go this way. surely God sustains all people.... if He did not, they would cease to exist. we have the choice to turn towards Him and to inter-weave that love of Him into our relationships and lives. that is the choice for all people of faith...
may God bless you and sustain you, and give you His peace, sister. thank you. yay -
Peace all,
I have been thinking about the same thing for the past few weeks. There are so many parts of the Quran that I have issues with, yet I adore it's core message. Seemingly, that core message is in many religions anyway. The problem is that there are idolatrous parts of other religions I think, and Islam seems to be the purest in monotheism. It's hard to find purely monotheistic Christians who do not mention Jesus as God, etc. It's also hard being spiritual but not religious while adhereing to a strict moral diet (abstience, etc.) and trying to find a mate who also adheres to that moral diet when you do not technically follow the same scriptures. Though I am nowhere near ready to be married, this is something I've come to realize very recently. I'm starting to think maybe there is no doctrine that properly fits.
Thanks for adding the link to Bnei Noah, that is very interesting.i think this belongs here...
i know that i believe in One God, the God of Life, and that He brings us together and gives us strength. i believe in the importance of compassion, humility, gratitude, and prayerfulness.
what troubles me are those verses in the Quran that refer to the specific military exploits of Mohammed. i do have to ask, why would God include these events in His book, if this book is supposed to be an eternal, trans-historical message of peace and unity? why would verses be included that would later be so interpreted to call for violence, if God knows best human nature and our tendency to be rigid and spiteful?
there is a lot of truth in the Quran. but as a Muslim, i must continually apologize for or explain away the very real violence within the faith in general, and even from a Quran-alone perspective that can be difficult, with ayat like 2191 and 95.
i also do not think that an understanding of God can be limited to one text or messenger. after all, there are Baha'is and Sikhs who work for peace and who adore the One God.
what do you think? perhaps i am not a Muslim. forgive me if this sounds silly, but there are, within the Jewish fold, people called Bnei Noah.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B'nei_Noah
could there be something like this for those who believe in God, and worship God alone, but who may not adhere to the Quran or follow Muhammed?
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanif
i mean... Muhammed apparently lead armies, had his enemies killed, such things. should we embrace this, should we have to continuously apologize for this or explain it away?
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Maria~
i would agree with you, Sister. God transcends out texts, our visons, and our ideas. i love the Quran very much, but there are those kinks in the hose, so to speak, that give pause.
i am not really sad to lose a label eitehr, should it go this way. surely God sustains all people.... if He did not, they would cease to exist. we have the choice to turn towards Him and to inter-weave that love of Him into our relationships and lives. that is the choice for all people of faith...
may God bless you and sustain you, and give you His peace, sister. thank you. yayDear Ayani,
I also love Quran and read as often I can because I feel so.
But I feel that you still see God as something that controls you and who you have to obey, am i right?
I have come to the conclusions that God only respond to our visions and it doesn't matter what visions we have, good or bad.God is not the one who either rewards you nor punish you for what you send out in form of visions or deeds.
If you do an evil cause I can be 100% sure that sooner or later that evilness will return to you in some way because Universe(God) respond what you send out, do you understand what I'm trying to explain to you?So the best way is to concentrate on yourself and create a happy life filled with harmony, you can do that if you start to send out that visions.
Religions are only for blind people they who cannot create their own life, they are afraid of many things and keep climb on to their traditions and rituals as something safe. They will never succede because they never wish that they are on the true path because they are so stubborn that they think they are already on the right path
My good luck lays in that I have always been a searcher for the truth, I have never stayed too long in a religious sect, group and/or understandings but moved on when I have discover something better. But of course there are not so many who knows that about me because I haven't screamed it out that I have changed direction. A slow process but in motion..............
I hope you find your way and the truth you feel satisfied with sister!
Hugs
Maria -
hey Sister~
it is good to keep shifting, seeking, and thinking. if we don't... we get stuck, and so do the people around us.
i was talking last night to an evangelical baptist in the subway- decked out with a poster of hell, all kinds of Jesus buttons, lots of pamphlets. we actually talked for a while on Christ, God, hell, salvation, and faith. he was a bright guy, and we had a good talk. i remained a hanif, he a christian with some Quranic verses on God's mercy and nature to think over. i don't have anything against religion, really. my mode of life is somewhat ritualized, in the way i pray and what i seek to avoid. i don't know if i'll really approach the point of total distance from ritual or religion.
i agree Maria, the Quran is a beautiful guide, and those seeking to discredit Islam will, as always, return to those few problematic verses again and again. the heart of Islam is submission to God, and that is what i would like to follow.
thank you, Maria. peace may God bless you and keep you, may He cause His light to shine on you and give you His peace. -
Peace "ayani" and all,
Well to answer your qs why would GOD put such stuff in the His scripture(s) which could at later stages easily be misinterpreted i guess the answer is simply because of THE INHERENT AMBIGUOUS NATURE OF ANY LANGUAGE. So anyone could just take anything out of context to serve his own purpose no matter what. Creationists even twisted quotes of evolution scientists in such a way to make it look those scientists themselves were in much doubt about their theory. So yes it can be done everywhere but whats important is to verify things through INDEPENDENT LINES OF INQUIRY. The Quran has withstood the test and came out to be a marvelously rational scripture which covers most important aspects. Even the fighting. Fighting in self defense is a MUST. It is coward to sit and let for example the sunni/shia sects continue to kill innocents and just tap them on their bodies. We need to gun those crooks downs who enage in such attrocities until they themselves give up and resort to peace. This is how the verses should be understood. It is entirely rational and logical. And then the Quran also states NEVER TO TRANSGRESS even while gunning down the enemy, meaning as soon as enemy shouts "stop, i give up. want peace, etc" immediately remove the gun from his head. Should he become violent again, kill him. Thats how its supposed to work. Many people today are starting to even be afraid of self defense whilst theyr fighting those who violently oppress them and torture them which is just unacceptable. I personally wouldnt mind if a rapist is given hell lot of pain, not eternally in the absolute sense, but sure a hell lot of. GOD Bless! -
Peace Johnny and all,
I have to disagree with you.
Violence creates more violence and it continues in a cycle until someone break this cycle and start a new one. That's how universe and the law of nature works.
The self defence can be practised in rare situations when actually your life is on danger, but otherwise it's alot better to tune in to collective good thoughts, peace and harmony thoughts.
If all practised this method of being in charge of your will and through that way create a good life situation for yourself then violence would be reduced to a minimum because actually not many want to uphold violence.
In other words, violence and wars exists because too many people on earth are focusing on this issue and therefore the cycle goes on and on. who will break this cycle?
Well if we create societies that focus of peace, health issues, happiness, then may the violence reduce.
Maria
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Peace Ayani,
I think sister (sorry for thinking you were a man if you are reading this) huruf said it well in another thread. It ultimately is a fight between good and evil. And there is nothing wrong with fighting and killing for a good cause.No, I on't think so. Only God is powerful, and He lets us have as much of that power as He wills when He wills. We have to accept that we are not allpowerful, in fact that we may be absolutely powerless, and that is not bad. Quite the opposite, that makes us realise as nothing else what we are, and hopefully that may make us compassionate to ourselves and others. We are not allpowerful no matter how many organisations we join, nor are any organisations all powerful. There are very good very positive people that live and die suffering. Were they wrong? They will be told in the akhira. As musmlims, believers in the Qur'an, we know that God will not be even an atom short in reward and that he is karim, latif, wadud, rahman rahim. Many faithful have died in battle, be it with arms or be it with their unknown efforts to be just and upright in easance or in difficulties. Were they not positive enough, if they kept fait? I am sure they were positive, absolutely positive. There is loss in this world, plenty of it, the point is that loss is not sin, in fact loss is better than sin. If we accept what you say, then we are saying that many pure and faithful people have been a bunch of idiots, because they didn't succeed. And those who at this very time suffer under unbearable situations do we say that there is something they are not doing right, and that if they only did this and that...? I find that that would be a tasteless joke. Fortunately our Lover doesn't make that kind of jokes. If we believe the Qur'an, those who suffer patiently and keep faith succeed big way, succeed forever. And we must not be coy in saying so. Those who did so and died are in the abode their Creator prepared for them, the abode of tender love, the abode of all beauty, the abode of sincerity. If we only believe in this world we are deluding ourselves. There is absolute justice in this world only if taken together with the other, if taken alone, there is some justice and much injustice in varying proportions. And, for this time I will allow myself a side step to the gospels and mention those words of the humble servant of God, Jesus the beloved, when he said my kigdom is not of this world. He was indeed a companion of the sincere and the humble. Indeed. Indeed we are given the possibility in this world of hoarding for the next, only it is so hard and difficult, that we cannot fake it. We must do it for real, suffer for real, humble ourselves for real, ask for compasion for real, and be grateful for real for all those things and for everything. The reward will also be real in sha Allah, al wadud, al 'afu, al aziz, al kareem, arrahman, arrahim, assamad.
Salaam
Peace
Al -
Peace sis "Majidah",
Peace Johnny and all,
I have to disagree with you.
Violence creates more violence and it continues in a cycle until someone break this cycle and start a new one. That's how universe and the law of nature works.
JK- if this were true then rational minded people wouldnt have armies no more to protect citizens and fight violent people. Violent hitler minded people only understand force and they must be struck. If this were not effective or proven wrong scientifically then the Quran would be falsified. This hasnt happened and would infact cause a paradoxical state in my mind if it does happen since i cannot rationalize how the Quran got the big bang and other such impossible to know facts right 1400 yrs ago but was wrong on mere legal issues like these.
The self defence can be practised in rare situations when actually your life is on danger, but otherwise it's alot better to tune in to collective good thoughts, peace and harmony thoughts.
JK- Well you see now you yourself have open the gate again by saying "IN RARE SITUATIONS WHEN YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER". Now it is left again upto the people to interpret what are those rare situations and which are not, isnt it?
If all practised this method of being in charge of your will and through that way create a good life situation for yourself then violence would be reduced to a minimum because actually not many want to uphold violence.
JK- This is very true and one should always try ones best to resort others to peace even whilst in a war. My point is that if someone wants to kill you or attack you and kill your children and is on the march theres no more talking. At tht point the necks of the enemy must be smited. Indeed very few would go this far, in being violent, today but the radical islamists are a good example.
In other words, violence and wars exists because too many people on earth are focusing on this issue and therefore the cycle goes on and on. who will break this cycle?
JK- Rational people never want war to be initiated. thats for sure. But if someone declares war on them they wont show cowardice and will march forward against the attackers.
Well if we create societies that focus of peace, health issues, happiness, then may the violence reduce.
Maria
JK- Yes ofcourse all rational minded people do that but attackers and barabarians are taken care off simultaneously by a group from amongst the rational mided whor trained in tht area and this is also mentioned in the Quran i.e. not all go to fight but certain people i.e. trained. GOD Bless!
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Peace "aalmakto",
Peace Ayani,
I think brother huruf said it well in another thread. It ultimately is a fight between good and evil. And there is nothing wrong with fighting and killing for a good cause.Peace
AlJK- Id say more speifically its a fight between those who act rationally and those who are irrational to the extent of becoming violent to enforce their irrational BS on others and you probably know who most of those guys are in todays world. GOD Bless!
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i'm still thinking on it... right now i do identify more with Islam spiritually than any other faith. there is a lot there that i love and feel close to. i use Quran alone as my guide, and read other spiritual texts as well. i pray five times a day, and believe that what the Quran says is overwhelmingly true and universally so.
i am, with God's help, a hanif. one who has, alhamdulillah, submitted. peace -
How about another avenue of approach
why would verses be included that would later be so interpreted to call for violence, if God knows best human nature and our tendency to be rigid and spiteful?
We have revealed unto you a Book that is all about you. Will you not, then, use your sense? (The Qur'an 2110)
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Peace,
why would God include these events in His book, if this book is supposed to be an eternal, trans-historical message of peace and unity? why would verses be included that would later be so interpreted to call for violence, if God knows best human nature and our tendency to be rigid and spiteful?
It is a test. If somebody is looking for violence and ignores the context of the verses, is that a person peaceful? Would you want to converse, be friends and hang out with these kinds of people? See 2253
Realize that quran points to both evil and good paths. See 28-10, surah 90
You don't have to apologize for sick hadeeth. They should be apologizing to you about extremist christians and the bible's sick verses. Last I checked there are over a million Iraqi dead; 2 million more forced to leave the country. The catholic hitler exterminated the jews, Israel is trying to wipe palestine off the face of the earth. The extermination of serbian muslims by christians in the 90s Remember the crusades? Any christian apologized to muslims for that? All 13 of them... Columbus preached the catholic religion and stole the land and the gold from the Native Americans and helped kill anywhere from 3 to 15 million etc....Until a few years ago I never even heard the word 'terrorist'.
Don't fall for propaganda and fear mongering. There is good and evil in every religion, race, culture, geographic region.
i mean... Muhammed apparently lead armies, had his enemies killed, such things. should we embrace this, should we have to continuously apologize for this or explain it away?
Key word, apparently. Shall we believe everything we see or read? 1736, 496
Bottom-line is this Bukhari was a plain-cut liar. He claimed over what 600,000 hadeeth? That would mean if he didn't sleep or eat, he would be writing down a hadeeth every 30 minutes.They didn't have cars back then.
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Peace,
also a snapshot of Muhammad according to al quran
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15889.msg154942#msg154942
Bro Wakas compiled this excellent list via the tools at www.studyquran.org
I would like to point out it is not my work, I simply compiled the list of available tools for StudyQuran.org, hence am familiar with them.
It still amazes me people are not aware of the quality of study that can be done and resources that are available to them. I see this on an almost daily basis on the forum.
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In 95 no one knows what the 4 months are; and why is it prescribed for. And when the months end do away with the perpetrators of violence from every place you can search for them. Where is violence here but the most assured way for peaceful cohabitation?
