Freeminds article on polygyny
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Peace SwedenMajidah,
It's a common escape for many people when asked to produce evidence of what they claim, to divert the attention to something else or as you have done choose to not discuss anymore. That is perfectly fine with my, my peace is still in tact regardless of the dialogue posts back and forth between you and I.
I don't play games with Al Quran, and I assume you consider all people who don't agree to your view of the world as closeminded. So I can't even take it as an insult from you, or whatever you intended it to be.
I don't know what you consider religious, but sounds like you consider most people who believe in Allah and Al Quran as being divine scripture from Him as idiots. So if that is the case, Im happy to be in your idiot category! yay
Last but not least, glad I live in my safe box, angel pr and not your world! tempt
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Peace,
I rather don't want to discuss things with you because I trust my intution that you are not good spirit and therefore I will not harm my good spirit by wasting my valuable time with you.
Maybe someone else have the gut to play a game with you.
I am too keen to take care of my well being than to argue with closeminded so called religious people voodoo
My father have right, hehe more religious more idiots, they cannot think outside the box it seems like.
Maria
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So IMQ has multiple wives? Would you like to share a little of your polygamous experience brother? I have never known anyone who has multiple wives so Im just wondering.
rotfl
Nothing better then a personal experience...
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As Salaamu Alaika jankren,
No I would not! I prefer to keep my personal private life just that, PRIVATE! O0 But I would love it if others would post regarding the points in the article and my posts against it, from a Quranic point of view. Personal experiences don't validate or invalidate what Allah has given us in Al Quran as guidance.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
So IMQ has multiple wives? Would you like to share a little of your polygamous experience brother? I have never known anyone who has multiple wives so Im just wondering.
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Salaam IQO, all
I think it is very logical sometimes to look into what you call "private life", when we want to see the actions away from words. I would like, for example, to ask if you would decide to marry again, and ignore your kids' opinion (if you have any. I am not even coming near the wife ;D), or maybe you would say Me? Never! I would not harm my kids in anyway!!
I think belief is about actions, not words only.
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As Salaamu Alaika Samia,
Maybe you didn't get my first answer correctly, I DON'T TALK ABOUT MY PRIVATE LIFE IN PUBLIC!
That being said, personal experiences don't validate or invalidate the principles laid down by Allah in Al Quran. That is why life is a test. To see if you can implement the principles. Those who only seek instant gratification will not be able to implement the guidance in their lives, because they are interested only in results, and not life's lessons or guidance from Al Quran. If you want personal examples to follow, maybe you can look at the "hadeeth" to see what some think happened in the personal life of Prophet Muhammad. I personally don't care to use that as my criteria for guidance from Allah.
The day that I use my kid's, my wife's, my mother's, or anyone other person's "opinions" as guidance; will be the day that I have strayed away from the guidance of Al Quran. I take "shuraa" with all of my family or those I deem necessary when I want to make a decision, and then afterwards I put my trust in Allah and His word from the Messenger contained in Al Quran. Quranic "shuraa" is not a democratic voting process by which the majority vote makes the decision. The leader takes "consultation" as is necessary and makes the appropiate decision based on the values and principles laid out in Al Quran and then puts their trust in Allah.
Again, does anyone have any Quranic points of view to add to the discussion or is this just becoming a witch hunt about my personal life?
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Salaam IQO, all
I think it is very logical sometimes to look into what you call "private life", when we want to see the actions away from words. I would like, for example, to ask if you would decide to marry again, and ignore your kids' opinion (if you have any. I am not even coming near the wife ;D), or maybe you would say Me? Never! I would not harm my kids in anyway!!
I think belief is about actions, not words only.
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Salaam IQO
I am sorry if my post was understood to be too much into private matters. That was not the intention.
Rest assured that obody is interseted in, or encourages, preying into your personal life.Of course we know that quraan tells us not to take others' opinions as guidance, but that's a different issue. The quraan also tells us not to harm others. God will not give anybody a "right" that will harm an innocent person. That's the point.
To see if you can implement the principles. Those who only seek instant gratification will not be able to implement the guidance in their lives, because they are interested only in results, and not life's lessons or guidance from Al Quran.
Then you might be able to tell me how this quote applies to a to-be-polygamous, and what life lessons/guidans from the quraan that we may learn from being polygamous.
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As Salaamu Alaika Samia,
Salaam IQO
I am sorry if my post was understood to be too much into private matters. That was not the intention.
Rest assured that obody is interseted in, or encourages, preying into your personal life.Alhamdulilaah. The understanding is corrected.
Of course we know that quraan tells us not to take others' opinions as guidance, but that's a different issue. The quraan also tells us not to harm others. God will not give anybody a "right" that will harm an innocent person. That's the point.
Harming others sometimes is a matter of opinion or point of view. Some may think that if I pray where they can see me, that I am harming them or their children because I am promoting something that they don't agree with. Pyschological harm. From this basic point, you can see that many points can be derived or concluded where other people can "claim" that someone is "harming" them; their rights as innocent people over the rights of those whom they consider to be oppressors of their rights. When in fact, a specific right given to someone by Allah always takes precedent over someone else's feelings about that right. Just because someone feels harmed by another's rights, doesn't make it that way under Allah's guidance. People have all sorts of feelings that are not justified. Hope that gets the point across.
Then you might be able to tell me how this quote applies to a to-be-polygamous, and what life lessons/guidans from the quraan that we may learn from being polygamous.
I personally think that anything that Allah specifically mentions, commands or gives as guidance to the believers, contains immenses blessings and mercy for those who understand and practice it. While many my not see the benefits, blessings and mercy of salaat, zakaat, etc.; yet they still exist. Many don't understand the blessings, mercy and benefits from being told to fight in self defence in Al Quran, yet the all of those things exist from that command. Polygyny as well contains blessings, mercy and benefits for those who understand it, although the majority in today's society may not comprehend or appreciate these things. (Of course today's society can see the beautiful "other" models of family life that are working so well for society ).
Polgyny can teach human beings many more valuable lessons than monogamy can, if practiced properly according to Al Quran. Of those, tolerance, compassion, cooperation, more responsibility and fulfillment of roles as prescribed by Allah, sharing and caring, how to work well with others, how to work better as a single unit, etc. etc. etc. Of course, many will claim that "jealousy" is a natural emotion and it is impossible to get pass this one emotion above all others, so therefore it is unfair to women. But this excuse is neither valid nor acceptable for someone truly in a state of submission and trusting faith in Allah.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Salaam all,
I am new here. This subject is always hot on all the forums I go to. keeps popping up one way or other. Just want to start from here. For those who have gone pass Surah An Nisa can some one kindly translate this verse for me in English.
24 32
That's surah An Noor verse 32... you'll know which when you read it!! As I always remind keep in mind the very first verse of the surah rather the whole Quran.
thank you
another free mind
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Here you go AshM... and welcome
Yusuf Ali
Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female if they are in poverty, God will give them means out of His grace for God encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things.
Shakir
And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.
Pickthall
And marry such of you as are solitary and the pious of your slaves and maid- servants. If they be poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware.
Sorry for the long delay in your request... I hope this is what you were searching for.
peace
dotty
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Remember, our knowledge base as a whole is constantly evolving and growing, and this is only done with contributions from all the members. Someone may view his/her own thoughts as moot or not good enough to post or whatever, but sometimes all it takes is one word or phrase to trigger a new avenue of insight.
This is long overdue Tay. I like the way you think!
peace
dotty
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Salaam,
I know this is a very old post. But you see, there are people who label themselves 'Quran-only' but are actually jerks and make no difference from devoted Sunnis.
ImamQuranonly and siki are examples of them.
I have read some of siki's posts on other threads that proved that he tried too hard to prove that having sex with maids and slaves are lawful.
Anyway I am disappointed by people who posted in this thread who opposed this kind of male chauvinistic view on polygamy but almost didn't refute anything of the male chauvinistic views.
Let me show you this.
This post is copied from a thread started by the post writer.
First quote
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597268.msg181548#msg181548
First
The Quran , in the original Arabic text, does NOT use the word "female" . There is no "female" anywhere in the text of verse 4127.Here is the text in Arabic
The word . (Nisa'a). This word means "WOMEN", not "females". For your info, the Arabic word for "female" is . "Untha".
The opposite of "untha" is "zhakar"
Hence
"untah" = female
"zhakar" = male.While
"nisa'a" = women
"rijal" = menNow you will ask of course So what? What is the diference between "untha" and "nisa'a"? Are they not synonymous?
NO, they are NOT synonymous. Anyone who claims they are synonymous is
1- Ignorant in Arabic.
2- Unaware of the Quran's precision
3- Corrupting the message.Even in English, FEMALE and WOMAN are not necessarily the same. To rephrase that Every woman is a female. But not every female is a woman.
A female could be a dog, sheep, horse, plant, or a three-year old child.
A woman is a grown adult human, passed the age of orphanageIf you can't see this difference, and stubbornly insist on ignoring it, then stop reading further. God is precise in using His words. Your scholars are apparently incapable of grasping this accuracy.
When Mr. Shakir and Mr. Pickthal used the word "females" in their translation of verse 4127, they ended up corrupting the text. (Wether intentionally or unintentionally, only God can tell, and I' not in a position to judge).
They should have used the word "WOMEN".
Second
A WOMAN, ( ة is a grown-up adult. There is no such thing as an ORPHAN WOMAN.
Have you ever heard of an ORPHAN MAN...?
When Pickthal translated the verse as such { Say Allah makes known to you His decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning female orphans whom you do not give what is appointed for them while you desire to marry them}
He not only corrupted the text (which mentions WOMEN not females), but also condoned pedophilia.
How in God's name do you marry an orphan?! Open your eyes man, for God's sake!!! An orphan is a child!
How can you be so blind?In Arabic, an orphan = a child who has lost his father.
The Quran is talking about marrying the WOMEN WHO ARE THE MOTHERS OF THE ORPHANS!!!! not the orphans themselves!!.
The phrase (The orphans OF women meaning the orphans belonging to the women) does NOT mean (orphan women). There's no such thing as an "orphan women" to begin with (woman = grown up past the age of orphanage).
The correct translation of 4127 is
{And they seek a ruling regarding the women, say ?God will give you a ruling regarding them and what is being recited to you in the Scripture regarding the orphans of women whom you wish to marry, but have not given them (the women) what was decreed for them; as well as the weak from the children That you stand for the orphans in equality.? Whatever good you do, then God is aware of it.}.
It is giving a license to men to marry the mothers of orphans (meaning marry the widows, in order to properly take care of their orphan children). God is exempting these men from paying the dowry.
Regards,
Yuliana -
Salaam,
I know this is a very old post. But you see, there are people who label themselves 'Quran-only' but are actually jerks and make no difference from devoted Sunnis.
ImamQuranonly and siki are examples of them.
I have read some of siki's posts on other threads that proved that he tried too hard to prove that having sex with maids and slaves are lawful.
Anyway I am disappointed by peoole who opposed this view on polygamy but almost didn't refute anything.
Let me show you this.
This post is taken from another thread.
Second quote
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597268.msg181629#msg181629
yatama sole, unmatched, single, lonely, jaded, one without parents; Root word atamm means more complete, more perfect, perfectly prepared, totally ready; Root word Tamm meaning consummate, of full value, self contained, needing no completion; Root word Tamma means to or become complete, completed, finished, done, to be performed, be accomplished, to come to an end;
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. page 117-118 (tamma)The context of the ayah is 'Marriage' to Women......who are independent, prepared and ready for marriage
Wain khiftum alla tuqsitoo fee alyatama fa VERBAL SENTENCE >>> inkihoo ADVERBAL MODIFIERS >>> MA TABA lakum minna <<< GENITIVE >>> alnnisai ADJECTIVES >>> mathna wathulatha warubaAAa <<< fain khiftum alla taAAdiloo fa ADJECTIVE Subject (Al Nisa) >>>> wahidatan <<< aw ma malakat aymanukum thalika adna alla taAAooloo
Secondly the ayah is indicating to Men....NOT to violate the blessing of marriage by marrying 2,3 & 4 Times NOT wives
It is Ma = NOT Taba = good/lawful Lakum =TO/For YOU to be given the Minna = favor/gift/blessing/benefit of Al Nisai = (get married to) Women Mathna = 2, Thulatha = 3, and Rubaa = 4 TIMES
Then the ayah continues......
Fain = Therefore Khiftum = If you fear Alla = that you will fall short of your duty and obligation in marriage taAAdiloo = to act justly Fa = conjunctive particle ADJECTIVE of Subject (An-Nisa) wahidatan = Then Marry ONE TIME indefinitely (NOT 2, 3 and 4 TIMES)
Lastly....
Aw (denotes time & transition) = wait UNTIL Malakat = you can take a wife Aymanukum = You are faithful, You feel trustworthy & You are secure
Regards,
Yuliana -
As Salaamu Alaika Samia,
Maybe you didn't get my first answer correctly, I DON'T TALK ABOUT MY PRIVATE LIFE IN PUBLIC!
That being said, personal experiences don't validate or invalidate the principles laid down by Allah in Al Quran. That is why life is a test. To see if you can implement the principles. Those who only seek instant gratification will not be able to implement the guidance in their lives, because they are interested only in results, and not life's lessons or guidance from Al Quran. If you want personal examples to follow, maybe you can look at the "hadeeth" to see what some think happened in the personal life of Prophet Muhammad. I personally don't care to use that as my criteria for guidance from Allah.
The day that I use my kid's, my wife's, my mother's, or anyone other person's "opinions" as guidance; will be the day that I have strayed away from the guidance of Al Quran. I take "shuraa" with all of my family or those I deem necessary when I want to make a decision, and then afterwards I put my trust in Allah and His word from the Messenger contained in Al Quran. Quranic "shuraa" is not a democratic voting process by which the majority vote makes the decision. The leader takes "consultation" as is necessary and makes the appropiate decision based on the values and principles laid out in Al Quran and then puts their trust in Allah.
Again, does anyone have any Quranic points of view to add to the discussion or is this just becoming a witch hunt about my personal life?
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
I admire this attitude!
If only would many of the so called "experts", even here, adhere to that un-personal, detached view of examining God's words... -
ImamQuranonly is very passionate about his views but I agree that 43 allows polygyny under no conditions except for a four wife limit, financial feasability, and fair treatment.
I'm not very knowledgable about Arabic but the The Monotheist Group and Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation that I have both infer it.
The Monotheist Group
"And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then you may marry those who are agreeable to you of the women two,and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one, or to whom you are commited to by oath. this is best that you do not face financial hardship."Abdullah Yusuf Ali
"If you fear that you shall not be able to deal juslty with the orphans,marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."
Please ignore the words the parenthese.Why the lack of specificty? In 423 later in the chapter there is a specific list of women a man is prohibited from marrying " your mothers, and your daughters, and your sister, and your fathers sisters....." but open ended when marrying multiple wives. I would imagine the translation would say "their mothers" or something similar but describes women as a collective. That's assuming the intended definition of orphan is children without a father.
But it makes sense when you think about the roles men and women have in marriage. 434 and 2187 are good examples.
The Monotheist Group
" The men are to support the women by what God has bestowed on them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. ....""It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. ...."
A man's role is that of a provider. So if a situation arose where most men could only care fore one wife but others could support more then why not? Another thing to remember is that we are all human we're designed to be attracted to each other and marriage is what God has given us to stay away from temptations and indulge in our sexuality in a pure way.
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Dear GodsPath,
Are you out of your mind? Polygyny under no conditions? You only made bold the phrase 'women' and totally ignored the word orphans.
You make no difference than the retarded Sunnis.
I'm actually not intolerant but I can't tolerate with extremist views.Seriously God allows men to marry up 4 four wives as long as he got the money and be 'just'?
You better read sarah_bd_gemini's posts that I quoted on here.
Furthermore, marriage isn't only explained on chapter 4.
Also, in the Qur'an, God talks to people in general, not one person only.
Regards,
Yuliana -
This is a late reply but I think it's necessary.
Your response was insulting and inflammatory. I assumed this forum was a place for civil and logical debate.I hoped that you could have given a better argument than comparing me to Sunni's and calling me an extremist.
And yes as far as my understanding goes and based on the text itself polygyny is permitted under the conditions I stated earlier.
Obviously marriage is mentioned in other parts of the Quran.
Also, in the Qur'an, God talks to people in general, not one person only.
What do you mean by that? Where is it explicitly stated?
Concerning anna/sarah_bd_gemini's friends interpretation and translation there seems to be some irregularities.
Translation/ Interpretation of 4127
{And they seek a ruling regarding the women, say ?God will give you a ruling regarding them and what is being recited to you in the Scripture regarding the orphans of women whom you wish to marry, but have not given them (the women) what was decreed for them; as well as the weak from the children That you stand for the orphans in equality.? Whatever good you do, then God is aware of it.}.
It is giving a license to men to marry the mothers of orphans (meaning marry the widows, in order to properly take care of their orphan children). God is exempting these men from paying the dowry.
The ayah clearly states that God is instructing Muhammad to say that God will give instructions about these women, there is nothing about exempting them from paying their dowry. She's jumping to conclusions.
Another problem is her interpretation of 43
yatama sole, unmatched, single, lonely, jaded, one without parents; Root word atamm means more complete, more perfect, perfectly prepared, totally ready; Root word Tamm meaning consummate, of full value, self contained, needing no completion; Root word Tamma means to or become complete, completed, finished, done, to be performed, be accomplished, to come to an end;
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. page 117-118 (tamma)The context of the ayah is 'Marriage' to Women......who are independent, prepared and ready for marriage
She uses every other definition for yatama except for orphan even though it is used several times in the Quran to describe children without parents. She picks and chooses definitions to suit her purpose instead of trying to be true to the text.
Yatama is the gender non specific plural for orphans.
Yateem is the masculine form for orphans.
Yateema is the feminine form for orphans.Her and her friends translations/interpretations aren't really based on any kind of intellectual honesty.
When I study the Quran I try my best to seek the truth of what God is trying to instruct me to do my own beliefs or agendas don't come into play. Reason is my only tool when understanding the Quran.You seem to be pushing this feminist agenda. The initial intentions behind the Women's Movement we're positive but over the years the movement has become a platform to create enmity and division between men and women where all men are characterized as oppressors, abusers, potential rapists, less intelligent, and obsolete. All the while promoting a culture of female supremacy instead of real equality. I'm not saying women can't run businesses or be president but if she wants to be a wife and mother what comes first?
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Pushing a FEMINIST AGENDA? So what are you? Should I call you a sexist because you call a person who wants equality and justice between men and women a person with feminist agenda?
You also insulted me by using the word feminist agenda.
Do you understand Arabic PRONOUNS? Yes, in the Qur'an, GOD always uses PLURAL second pronouns.Did I ever say that women must dominate men? So why the heck did you use the word feminist agenda against me?
Didn't you say that polygyny was permitted WITHOUT CONDITIONS?
Your last paragraph shows that you made false assumption about me.
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I am sick of the "word" ffeminist being used as an insult or disqulification. What if not a misogynist agenda has the muslim establishment and other establishments being pushing through centuries? Whoudl decent people, male or female not stand up against usurpation and perversion of God given laws of love and equality between the sexes. Yes I am feminist because women are still being pushed out of society and into pshychological and material prisons by misogynists who seem to delight in opressing mothers an daughters, sisters and wives as if they way second or third class human beings. Those who oppose that opression are called faminists, so being a feminist is a noble deed.
There are travestis of feminism, but those who would like to sweep noble feminism under the carpet resorting to qualifying it as a defect and not a virtue, are themselves pushing sa WOMEN HATING agenda, as if they were nto born of a mother. Those misogynist are not fit to talk about any feminism at all, those women haters, women exploiters women despisers.
Salaam