If incest is prohibited, how did the human race populate from Adam?
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Peace Pazuzu,
What do you feel about 41?
41 - "O people, be aware of your Lord who has created you from one soul and He created from it its mate and sent forth from it many men and women; and be aware of God whom you ask about, and the relatives. God is watcher over you."
Well, I think it helps if we look at the context of the verses which come immediately after it ( 42 - 440 ). They contain social laws (dealing with orphans, marriage, money and equality between gender. Therefore, it's possible that the meaning of the phrase "created you from one soul and He created from it its mate" is telling us that the essence of the human soul is the same, wether it's a man or a woman. (All souls should be treated as equal, no racism, and no sexism). The context here is a social one, and has nothing to do with Genesis theory.
I don't know about you, but I think there's a big difference between this statement made in 41 - the equality of souls - and the claim that god shaped a man figure out of clay, then breathed life into it, and lo and behold! Adam was born. Then, from one of Adam's crooked ribbs, he made for him a companion. (Note that the ribb has to be crooked. Perhaps the inventor of this fairytale had a problem with women maybe?)
Peace, so you think human race was in heaven and ate from the tree?
If you are refering to the "Heaven of the Afterlife", then I'm afraid I will have to disagree with you. Adam (mankind) was created from this EARTH.
The word "Jannah", as OPF has shown, can mean "garden" or "forest". But it doesn't necessarily have to be intrepreted literally.
Remember God tells us that the Quran contains "MUTASHABIH" (allegorical) verses. Allegorical verses are metaphoric in nature. Hence "Jannah" can be a metaphor describing a state of contentment , or bliss. The first humans were originally living in this state. They had everything they needed, and were content. But then they ate from the "Tree". Again, the tree could very well be a symbol of greed. Remember that Satan was tempting mankind with something he never had immortality (How can this be the heaven of the afterlife then?). When Adam (mankind) ate from that tree, he was cast out of this state of bliss. Greed eventually leads to division, and division to conflict. Isn't this where we are today?Doesn't it make more sense to approach the story of Adam as a metaphor?
Peace..
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Peace. God's system never changes. Incest is prohibited. Brothers can't marry sisters. How then did we multiply?
Peace Tarikh,
As mankind has evolved so have the divine laws with it. Every prophet brought a set of laws adapted to the then current evolution of mankind. Also necessity takes precedence over law. For instance pork is allowed when there's nothing else to eat and Incest would have been permissible for as long as it was required for the procreation of man.
yes -
Peace Tarikh,
As mankind has evolved so have the divine laws with it. Every prophet brought a set of laws adapted to the then current evolution of mankind. Also necessity takes precedence over law. For instance pork is allowed when there's nothing else to eat and Incest would have been permissible for as long as it was required for the procreation of man.
yesAppropriate answer.
siki
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Well, I think it helps if we look at the context of the verses which come immediately after it ( 42 - 440 ). They contain social laws (dealing with orphans, marriage, money and equality between gender. Therefore, it's possible that the meaning of the phrase "created you from one soul and He created from it its mate" is telling us that the essence of the human soul is the same, wether it's a man or a woman. (All souls should be treated as equal, no racism, and no sexism). The context here is a social one, and has nothing to do with Genesis theory.
I don't know about you, but I think there's a big difference between this statement made in 41 - the equality of souls - and the claim that god shaped a man figure out of clay, then breathed life into it, and lo and behold! Adam was born. Then, from one of Adam's crooked ribbs, he made for him a companion. (Note that the ribb has to be crooked. Perhaps the inventor of this fairytale had a problem with women maybe?)
If you are refering to the "Heaven of the Afterlife", then I'm afraid I will have to disagree with you. Adam (mankind) was created from this EARTH.
The word "Jannah", as OPF has shown, can mean "garden" or "forest". But it doesn't necessarily have to be intrepreted literally.
Remember God tells us that the Quran contains "MUTASHABIH" (allegorical) verses. Allegorical verses are metaphoric in nature. Hence "Jannah" can be a metaphor describing a state of contentment , or bliss. The first humans were originally living in this state. They had everything they needed, and were content. But then they ate from the "Tree". Again, the tree could very well be a symbol of greed. Remember that Satan was tempting mankind with something he never had immortality (How can this be the heaven of the afterlife then?). When Adam (mankind) ate from that tree, he was cast out of this state of bliss. Greed eventually leads to division, and division to conflict. Isn't this where we are today?Doesn't it make more sense to approach the story of Adam as a metaphor?
Peace..
Peace Pazuzu,
I am sorry if I sound too blunt about this, but for me, you are uncomfortably switching between allegorical and factual. Words in allegorical verses which do not make sense to you are allegories (Jannah, Tree) and other words as immortality are fact. I have always thought that verses are allegorical as a whole, not just particular words within them. So, if we feel that a verse is allegorical, we shouldn't try to interpret it, philosophically, metaphorically or otherwise, because those are the verses which cause the divide, conflict and disagreement, because of human need to interpret and know everything. 37 is a very important verse in that regard. We know that people disagreed only after the Sign came to them. So why don't we agree on not interpreting the allegorical verses?
Anyway, that is just my current opinion on the matter. A lot of the new concepts that I am reading about are a lot to digest and it is going to take some time for me to completely submit to the Truth, but I am getting there.
Thanks for imparting your understanding, though. It definitely is food for thought.
Salam
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If you are refering to the "Heaven of the Afterlife", then I'm afraid I will have to disagree with you. Adam (mankind) was created from this EARTH.
The word "Jannah", as OPF has shown, can mean "garden" or "forest". But it doesn't necessarily have to be intrepreted literally.
Remember God tells us that the Quran contains "MUTASHABIH" (allegorical) verses. Allegorical verses are metaphoric in nature. Hence "Jannah" can be a metaphor describing a state of contentment , or bliss. The first humans were originally living in this state. They had everything they needed, and were content. But then they ate from the "Tree". Again, the tree could very well be a symbol of greed. Remember that Satan was tempting mankind with something he never had immortality (How can this be the heaven of the afterlife then?). When Adam (mankind) ate from that tree, he was cast out of this state of bliss. Greed eventually leads to division, and division to conflict. Isn't this where we are today?Doesn't it make more sense to approach the story of Adam as a metaphor?
Peace..
It occurs to me, not that I say it was so, just an occurrence, that may be in here is a hint of evolution. Animals are not conscious of any need of intimacy for their sex life. Anywhere, in front of anything is good for them. Is one of the characteristics of humaness this need for intimacy for sexual relations, and from there the feeling of nakedness? Also the face to face may be part of that, whereas animal do not see face to face in that action.
More -and much wilder- speculation
Most monkeys or apes live in trees -this is the wild part- and eat from them. There could have been a certain species of tree with teratogenic properties, to which prehumans may have developed an addiction and which consumed overtime may have created changes resulting in the human body we know.This would have been the descent from the animal bliss, without moral qualms, without moral decisions, with every problem solved, because there simply isn't the concept of problem, because there is nothing to decide. That bliss is out, but bless(ing) is in and humankind is created, with its capacity to change the environment at will and to do good or harm at will, like being addicted and having good or bad dreams. If this change was done over time, the species might have been conscious in fact that it was changing, that it was getting further and further from all the other animals, and therefore conscious that this tree was leading them away from innocence into problems, but that they liked it.
Salaam
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It occurs to me, not that I say it was so, just an occurrence, that may be in here is a hint of evolution. Animals are not conscious of any need of intimacy for their sex life. Anywhere, in front of anything is good for them. Is one of the characteristics of humaness this need for intimacy for sexual relations, and from there the feeling of nakedness? Also the face to face may be part of that, whereas animal do not see face to face in that action.
More -and much wilder- speculation
Most monkeys or apes live in trees -this is the wild part- and eat from them. There could have been a certain species of tree with teratogenic properties, to which prehumans may have developed an addiction and which consumed overtime may have created changes resulting in the human body we know.This would have been the descent from the animal bliss, without moral qualms, without moral decisions, with every problem solved, because there simply isn't the concept of problem, because there is nothing to decide. That bliss is out, but bless(ing) is in and humankind is created, with its capacity to change the environment at will and to do good or harm at will, like being addicted and having good or bad dreams. If this change was done over time, the species might have been conscious in fact that it was changing, that it was getting further and further from all the other animals, and therefore conscious that this tree was leading them away from innocence into problems, but that they liked it.
Salaam
This is exactly the danger of interpretation of allegorical verses. From just one hint, it branches out into numerous theories and speculations. The wonder is this is happening right in front of our eyes.
Sister huruf, please don't take this the wrong way. You are entitled to your imagination and opinion and I am sorry if I have offended you in any way.
Peace
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Salaam,
The word Rabb means "One that developes from one stage to the other until it has reached its completion", sorry to say but this word screams evolution. Sadly, people uphold rather the Christian beliefs and force them on the QUran.
Please see this article on Quran and evolution
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,415,0,0,1,0&PHPSESSID=46095bd550baa0c4f6bab793e3d871a9
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When Mankind began to divide as a tree into branches and each were busy with getting only the fruit of their own branch.
1019
All mankind were but one community (and are meant to be so); then they differed. Had it not been for a Word that went forth from your Lord (the Law of free will), He would have judged their disputes immediately.
Thus the moment of the fall is when Mankind started to live in larger societies, forming cities. This is also confirmed by archeology, class-differences emerged when cities were formed and the workers-class and the ruler-class was created.
This was the downfall of Adam, as people were focussed on personal gain and not collective gain as was done before when living in smaller groups.
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Peace Arnold
Thats an interesting way of looking at it, thanks. Makes a lot of sense.
One question that I never got an answer (or dont think) is you believe that Jannat and Jahannam are on this world, correct? So when we die, is that it? Thats similar to the Jewish idea of how we live on in other peoples memories. I personally don't believe that, but just asking your view on that. When we die, what happens to us, literally.
Peace
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Peace all,
Then at which point in evolutionary tree is Adam or when humanity starts?
http//www.drzach.net/images/evolution101.jpg
Or is Adam the initial germ thingy which all life (animal and plant) sprang from?
If so, what's the difference; single person pair or from single germ?The animal kingdom (i.e. nature) has incest occurring all the time; look at a pair of rabbits.
Difference with humans is that we are told ? don?t do it!
This is one of those rules like don?t eat pig meat; not about health reasons entirely for one is not guilty if unawares or if forced and even the best veal is forbidden as food if offered as sacrifice to another god.
The same would apply if someone married their sister unawares.
We are only guilty of things that we are conscious of ? don?t do it!
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This is exactly the danger of interpretation of allegorical verses. From just one hint, it branches out into numerous theories and speculations. The wonder is this is happening right in front of our eyes.
Sister huruf, please don't take this the wrong way. You are entitled to your imagination and opinion and I am sorry if I have offended you in any way.
Peace
No ofence. I said myself that I was speculating. But on the other hand, the point is that I don't know that this aya is allegorical, or that it is factual. Till that is not settled , it is but natural that I should try to find out what it is, and see what fits and what not. May be it is not allegorical. Also many things factual can also be very good alegories. If it serves to communicate a meaning which is beyond its instant scope. In fact I would say that reality as we know it may well be an allegory of a higher order of reality. God speaks about dream in a way that we could say is an allegory of death.
Salaam
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Peace all,
Then at which point in evolutionary tree is Adam or when humanity starts?
http//www.drzach.net/images/evolution101.jpg
Or is Adam the initial germ thingy which all life (animal and plant) sprang from?
If so, what's the difference; single person pair or from single germ?The animal kingdom (i.e. nature) has incest occurring all the time; look at a pair of rabbits.
Difference with humans is that we are told dont do it!
"Adam" would start from the first sapient man/woman.
The animal kingdom has cannibalism occuring all the time, homosexuality occuring all the time, etc, etc.
Or is Adam the initial germ thingy which all life (animal and plant) sprang from?
If so, what's the difference; single person pair or from single germ?Does the quran ever tie "first life" (41) to "adam"? There's a difference.
The difference with humans, also, with incest is that there are natural safeguards to prvent it, just like natural safeguards against adultery, same with theft, and generally every other quranic law. The only thing is, these natural safeguards tend to be quite unsafe for humans.
Someone marrying their sister unawares... Are you serious?
For starters, we are in 2007 now, and that clock isn't turning back any time soon (;D) so you can forget about the days of no DNA testing.
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Salaam,
The word Rabb means "One that developes from one stage to the other until it has reached its completion", sorry to say but this word screams evolution. Sadly, people uphold rather the Christian beliefs and force them on the QUran.
Please see this article on Quran and evolution
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,415,0,0,1,0&PHPSESSID=46095bd550baa0c4f6bab793e3d871a9
Br. Arnold,
How about the fact that the theory of "evolution" has been smashed against the wall? And I am not talking about evolution as a biological change, where, a life starts of as a sperm and an egg and "evolves into a feeble old human being. Those "stages" are apparent and verfiable, not just for human being but other forms of life.
However, evolution in the Darwinian sense, has so many large "missing" links between stages that it is more of a wish for an easy answer to purpose of life than anything else. Think about it. If Darwinian evolution were true, then, you have your answer to why life exists in this universe... "By accident". No divine being. No grand scheme of things. Just a chance mixture of the right stuff and the right conditions and voila, presto! We have life and from that human beings. Strangely enough, the humans haven't been evolving much after reaching their current stage, I would have assumed that some would have adapted to living in the water or flying in the air or something. Why aren't they?
Br. Arnold, I have utmost respect for your opinions, but to say that creation is a christian concept is just too opinionated for me. We are asked to use our reasoning and research, right? Considering the current situation of the evolution theories, is it really wise to attribute them as having Quranic backing?
Again, this is just my opinion of the matter. But I would rather try to be safe than attribute something to God and his system, without having substantial proof.
Peace
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Peace Arnold
Thats an interesting way of looking at it, thanks. Makes a lot of sense.
One question that I never got an answer (or dont think) is you believe that Jannat and Jahannam are on this world, correct? So when we die, is that it? Thats similar to the Jewish idea of how we live on in other peoples memories. I personally don't believe that, but just asking your view on that. When we die, what happens to us, literally.
Peace
I believe Jannah and Jahannam are descriptions of states of Mankind that occur in this Life AND the Next Life.
Never did I claim it was only in this Life. Jannah means an Garden that has so much growth, the ground is not seen (JNN=covered/not seen, same root as Jinn). Jahannam is the name of the old garbage dump in Jerusalem, people were sacrificed and executed in the old days there. So it was used as a metaphor for a state of Mankind which cannot develop. Jahim does not only mean fire, it also means to stop something from progressing.
When we live according to System of Allah we can create a state of Mankind in which it can develop without stopping (no Jahim/barriers), this is Jannah, an ever growing garden. In this state the Human Nafs/Self can develop itself so it can conquer death and develop further after death and go into the next phase of the Universe, this is also again being in the state of Jannah. The Quran talks about 2 Jannah's, in this Life and the Next.
If Mankind does not live accroding to the Divine Laws of the Universe, it will keep going up and down and constantly be in a state of Jahannam, where it cannot develop (jahim/barrier), it is in a state of fire as its potentials are wasted and burned up. As a person keeps going against the Laws of the Universe, it cannot conquer death in a positive way and ends up in the Universal garbagedump, metaphorically called Jahannam.
Just as the Quran says in 1317, only that which benefits Mankind will keep existing, just as evolution throws out what is not useful or strong enough, in the same way the Universe will throw out those people which are not fit for further development.
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Then at which point in evolutionary tree is Adam or when humanity starts?
Adam in Arabic means Intelligent man, this is exactly the meaning of Homo Sapiens, Thinking Man...
The Quran says clearly we developed from lower species
6133 Your Lord is Absolute, the Lord of Mercy. He could replace you with whomever He Will, like He RAISED YOU FROM THE GENERATIONS OF OTHER FOLK.
7628 (Who gave them the mind and body to behave the way they choose?)We it is Who have created them, and strengthened their frame. And if We Will, We can replace them entirely with other nations.
7114 Knowing that He has created you in successive stages.
7117 And Allah has caused you to grow as a growth from the earth/as a (geneological) tree.
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Br. Arnold,
How about the fact that the theory of "evolution" has been smashed against the wall? And I am not talking about evolution as a biological change, where, a life starts of as a sperm and an egg and "evolves into a feeble old human being. Those "stages" are apparent and verfiable, not just for human being but other forms of life.
However, evolution in the Darwinian sense, has so many large "missing" links between stages that it is more of a wish for an easy answer to purpose of life than anything else. Think about it. If Darwinian evolution were true, then, you have your answer to why life exists in this universe... "By accident". No divine being. No grand scheme of things. Just a chance mixture of the right stuff and the right conditions and voila, presto! We have life and from that human beings. Strangely enough, the humans haven't been evolving much after reaching their current stage, I would have assumed that some would have adapted to living in the water or flying in the air or something. Why aren't they?
Br. Arnold, I have utmost respect for your opinions, but to say that creation is a christian concept is just too opinionated for me. We are asked to use our reasoning and research, right? Considering the current situation of the evolution theories, is it really wise to attribute them as having Quranic backing?
Again, this is just my opinion of the matter. But I would rather try to be safe than attribute something to God and his system, without having substantial proof.
Peace
Peace,
Evolution theory was developed by Muslims, Darwin only developed the theory a bit further. In the middle ages, it was normal for Muslims to believe in Evolution.
Allah has created the Laws that eventually would allow Life to emerge and eventually us. Thus evolution is not blind chance, it is an outcome of a developed enviroment. Precisely calculated.
I have studied Biochemistry, and evolution has more proof then whatever theory out there.
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Peace to all,
Great posts Arnold, you have again helped explain some very difficult topics, I for one believe in both creation and evolution, why cant God do both, in fact I know there is a verse in the Quran that says God created and then he continues his creation, which matches both what we believe without proof (creation) and what we see and can prove (evolution) both are from God, and we are asked to believe in the seen and the unseen in the Quran so this fits nicely I think.
Kurt
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Peace Kurt,
God created the Universe as a precise mechanism, through cause and effect and the boundaries of the mechanism, intelliegnt had to emerge in this universe. This is His Law.
A God that has to interfer constantly in the creation is not a smart god to me, but one that creates a precise mechanism in which a definite outcome of life would emerge is one smart indeed.