Support the mistress as well as the wife
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Salam,
I am using example of two incidents when these famous men were publically known to be married yet they got the mistress ...for what ever reason money etc .. both women, mistress and wife seem to stick with such an adulterer because he is rich and famous etc that goes to say a lot about three of them.
The stats for marriages that involve subtance addiction show that women stick with the partners who are the additic much more than men do... I think this points back to the idea of "male draconian interpretation" in life general..
peace
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Salam,
Are you implying that men are more horny.. ?Farida, do you think women cheat less than men? I remember seeing a report in this past year that said married women tend to cheat more than married men... ofcourse these so called 'studies' can be made with any bent.. but wondering your views... plus what makes a liberated women?
peace.. peace
Women are less so. The point is, men don't worry what they're going into, but women do worry about the opposite.
In any case, unfettered polygyny is just as bad as lack of. What about wartime?
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I believe for you the key words for you are that "I don't feel right about it.. " not more than anything more need to be said or forced on you regarding the subject...
but at what point will one go to force thier way of life onto others?
at the same time what I see in my relationship my grandmother holds with her husband and other wife.. I can understand where they do (and have been for a long time) feel right about it and how it works for them... They all get the attention and support they need.. and they share a life together based on those needs and wants... of course the two wifes do not live in the same house but will meet with eachother on occasion..
Br. Mehdi,
I see where you are coming from when you talk about forcing someone's lifestyle on another, and if polygyny works for someone (though, I can't, for the life of me, imagine how), then there should be no compulsion on them. I can't help but agree with you on that point.
Are you saying a married woman who is married to a man get married to another woman.. basicly are you talking about gay marriage or a woman who has multiple husbands? Please let me know... or if even if you think there is a difference...
I meant a married woman getting married to another man. But you make a good point... her getting married to another woman would be like... a bonus for her husband... more happiness, sharing and caring.
OPF may mean one thing... and there also maybe others who thing another... no matter what.. there is no question that it does happen.. legal or otherwise.. the state of Utah in the US would be a good case study... the Quran puts safeguards on it... meaning... it sets criteria to follow... I see this in my grandmothers case... some may disagree about what they are doing... but wouldn't be able to disagree weather it's working or not...
Might I ask specifically what those safeguards are?
Peace
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I am afraid modern war may kill very evenly. Bomb cities, bomb villages. More or less dead of both sexes might even.
I talked about statistics, because things today are very complex and very mixed, one can hardly isolate a factor as a single cause of something.
How is the woman who gets the attention of a man going to know whether the man, who may be married but she doesn't yet know, or even if she knows, is not her real possibility of getting a partner? She doesn't know how many more eligible men are left, of what kind they are. I suppose that marriage or contacts agencies are the places where you can get an idea of that, but I don't know that all that many people use them. Somehow it doesn't appeal much.
Again, I think that is what Farida is meaning, being bad is so easy for men, that only those really interested in being good are able to resist the easy way to "get what they can". They don't risk loosing much, whereas women do, so if they don't have real moral principles or will, therefore there is no reason for them not to engage in whatever pleases them at any given moment and there is no reason for them either to hold on to real engagements and be faithful. That is also probably the case of married women who may cheat on their husbands. But this may be outside the scope of the thread.
Salaam
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Salaam
For now I'm only using the example of two modern women Mrs Clinton and Mrs Archer who are both educated and liberated women. What stopped them from doing what their husbands did? Why are women different from men ???
I tell you in giving you receive, because if you give the same right to the other woman and she insist on her right to be taken as a wife , than clearly she is not cheaply avalible for fun only and that is when its less likely that many men would cheat as taking more wives means more responsibilty and likely more children which is not easy.
Polygony has been allowed in traditional Muslim countries but very few had taken two wives ..its only when they struck oil in the middle east that you see them exploiting this.
There are some cults who tried a culture of sharing husband and wife but this fad has not taken off. People still like to stick with the old couple-concept. ....As OPF said Qur'an only puts safegurdsBest regards
Sis. farida,
Mrs. Clinton and Mrs. Archer. Funny that sister huruf mentioned that "an adulterer is meant for an adultress and vice versa". Come to think of it, why would they stand by cheating husbands? Can it be that they were also guilty of some level indiscretion which the world was not aware about? Or maybe because it is a better form of revenge because the wives would alway hold that against them and can actually blackmail them over it? Maybe they had some other ulterior motives. Who knows?
Peace
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Peace
If you can not deal justly with them than only one (not exact quote) AND dealing justly is not easy its TOUGH
SalaamIt's 43.
"And if you feared that you not be just/equitable to the orphans, so marry what (was) allowed/permitted for you from the women two twos/twos, and threes, and fours, so if you feared that you will not be just/equitable, so (marry) one or what your rights owned/possessed, that will be more suitable to prevent you from injustice."
On top of fearing injustice, orphans are involved for this verse to be applicable. Can you imagine how rare that particular situation is? And Ms. Symonds doesn't even come close to qualifying for marriage to a married man.
Peace
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Salam,
ofcourse these so called 'studies' can be made with any bent.. but wondering your views... plus what makes a liberated women?
peace.. peace
Salaam again
At least two of my replies got lost in transaction so I will try againAre you implying that men are more horny.. ?
No man are not content.
I remember seeing a report in this past year that said married women tend to cheat more than married men...
Women when happily married and content do not cheat on their husband where as men do ..don?t worry about studies just check ?seeking love? websites and you will find quite a few men admitting that they are happily married, yet want a bit of fun on the side? they are taking advantage of the availability of women
Women do cheat when they are cheated on and s.c. liberated women are now trying to outdo men by going to male striptease etc but still their number is less over all.
The sad reality is that women are generally romantic and seek love and are happy with a one to one relationship, even if they can have lots of men; one example was Princess Diana
Regrds -
It's 43.
"And if you feared that you not be just/equitable to the orphans, so marry what (was) allowed/permitted for you from the women two twos/twos, and threes, and fours, so if you feared that you will not be just/equitable, so (marry) one or what your rights owned/possessed, that will be more suitable to prevent you from injustice."
On top of fearing injustice, orphans are involved for this verse to be applicable. Can you imagine how rare that particular situation is? And Ms. Symonds doesn't even come close to qualifying for marriage to a married man.
Peace
Salaam
Thank you for 43 reference, its late here however I must replyCan you imagine how rare that particular situation is?
Yes I can
Large numbers of men are killed in Iraq war leaving many women in need of protection and the above verse is mainly to support those vulnerable women, as well as to hinder women like Ms Symonds from selling themselvs cheaply.Best regards
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Sis. farida,
Mrs. Clinton and Mrs. Archer. Funny that sister huruf mentioned that "an adulterer is meant for an adultress and vice versa". Come to think of it, why would they stand by cheating husbands? Can it be that they were also guilty of some level indiscretion which the world was not aware about? Or maybe because it is a better form of revenge because the wives would alway hold that against them and can actually blackmail them over it? Maybe they had some other ulterior motives. Who knows?
Peace
Allahu Aalim!
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Salam all,
Br. Sharp001,
I meant a married woman getting married to another man. But you make a good point... her getting married to another woman would be like... a bonus for her husband... more happiness, sharing and caring.
I guess it could actually benefit all involved.. at least that's how my grandmother's situation is.. I'm very sure that it's not a easy thing to deal with though.. what makes it difficult is the level of understanding and especially the amount of truthfulness that the individuals involved have with themselfs (personal, internal) first and foremost and then of coure the mutual conditions with all involved... This isn't much different than monogmy! In the sense of 43 we know that there are many men who can't even deal justly with a single wife and vice versa..!
On top of fearing injustice, orphans are involved for this verse to be applicable. Can you imagine how rare that particular situation is? And Ms. Symonds doesn't even come close to qualifying for marriage to a married man.
not sure if this fits into what you're saying.. but would this be the same as women who have children from dead beat men who abandon them? Please let me know...
Mrs. Clinton and Mrs. Archer. Funny that sister huruf mentioned that "an adulterer is meant for an adultress and vice versa". Come to think of it, why would they stand by cheating husbands? Can it be that they were also guilty of some level indiscretion which the world was not aware about? Or maybe because it is a better form of revenge because the wives would alway hold that against them and can actually blackmail them over it? Maybe they had some other ulterior motives. Who knows?
That's definitly something to ponder.. I wonder how she would be doing in her race for president.. had she divorced him...?!
Sis Farida,
If you can not deal justly with them than only one (not exact quote) AND dealing justly is not easy its TOUGH
It can be just as tough to deal with just a single spouse. The divorce rates speak for that, I think. There are certain apects that need to align for any good marriage to work.. if they don't no matter monogmous or poly... they will simply not work or be misreable..
No man are not content.
How much do you believe physiology might fit into all of this?
Women when happily married and content do not cheat on their husband where as men do ..dont worry about studies just check seeking love websites and you will find quite a few men admitting that they are happily married, yet want a bit of fun on the side they are taking advantage of the availability of women
Yes.. I know.. those studies are made alot of times just for their shock value. I'll take your word for it.. something are better left alone..
Women do cheat when they are cheated on and s.c. liberated women are now trying to outdo men by going to male striptease etc but still their number is less over all.
not sure if I'd call that liberated for either man or woman.. ???
The sad reality is that women are generally romantic and seek love and are happy with a one to one relationship, even if they can have lots of men; one example was Princess Diana
I believe many men do too and even though vice versa in having lots of the other etc.. Love is not lust... Love is not always recipicated either... so it could be love for one and lust for the other.. either side of fence... it happens..
peace.. peace
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this woman is not a victim, she is a willing participant... she milked men for what she could, and when things weren't going her way she blew the whistle
anyone who thinks that one gender cheats any more or any less than the other is simply fooling themself
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this woman is not a victim, she is a willing participant... she milked men for what she could, and when things weren't going her way she blew the whistle
anyone who thinks that one gender cheats any more or any less than the other is simply fooling themself
exactly dear P
that's why i yucked up there Farida (first part of aaron's statement) and no i am not defending the guys...
second statement; sure, except if they all cheat homosexually...
peacelk
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Salam all,
Br. Sharp001,I guess it could actually benefit all involved.. at least that's how my grandmother's situation is.. I'm very sure that it's not a easy thing to deal with though.. what makes it difficult is the level of understanding and especially the amount of truthfulness that the individuals involved have with themselfs (personal, internal) first and foremost and then of coure the mutual conditions with all involved... This isn't much different than monogmy! In the sense of 43 we know that there are many men who can't even deal justly with a single wife and vice versa..!
not sure if this fits into what you're saying.. but would this be the same as women who have children from dead beat men who abandon them? Please let me know...
Peace Br. Mehdi,
About the first paragraph, I am sorry if I was misleading but I was just being sarcastic when I implied that a married woman should marry another man. I was just trying to make a point that the cycle won't end at polygyny. It will keep snow-balling upto the point where people would not be considering whether it is unjust to any of the people involved in a polygamous relationship, especially the children.
For the second paragraph, what I was trying to imply is the condition for polygyny in 43 is so very difficult to adhere to that it becomes virtually impractical in today's world. I mean think about it. You are only allowed multiple marriages if you fear injustice to the orphans. Can anyone tell me what possible forms of injustice could there be to orphans, which would prompt another marriage?
Salaam
Thank you for 43 reference, its late here however I must replyYes I can. Large numbers of men are killed in Iraq war leaving many women in need of protection and the above verse is mainly to support those vulnerable women, as well as to hinder women like Ms Symonds from selling themselvs cheaply.
Best regards
Sis. farida,
I think I lost the connection there. If many woman are left in need of protection because of war, does it necessarily mean that one should marry them to offer the needed protection. What happened to the taking them under your protection as a sister? The only need I can possibly think marriage can fulfil are sexual. Every other need can be fulfilled under a brother/sister relationship.
As for Ms. Symonds, it was really unfortunate that she was exposed to the society that she was in. But the thing is she gave into it. 2268 comes into mind.
2268 - "The Evil one threatens you with poverty and bids you to conduct unseemly. Allah promiseth you His forgiveness and bounties. And Allah careth for all and He knoweth all things." (Yusuf Ali)
In the end, she turned out to be nothing but a gold digger, hiding behind a preceived notion of "seeking true love".
Peace
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I think I lost the connection there. If many woman are left in need of protection because of war, does it necessarily mean that one should marry them to offer the needed protection. What happened to the taking them under your protection as a sister? The only need I can possibly think marriage can fulfil are sexual. Every other need can be fulfilled under a brother/sister relationship.
As for Ms. Symonds, it was really unfortunate that she was exposed to the society that she was in. But the thing is she gave into it. 2268 comes into mind.
2268 - "The Evil one threatens you with poverty and bids you to conduct unseemly. Allah promiseth you His forgiveness and bounties. And Allah careth for all and He knoweth all things." (Yusuf Ali)
In the end, she turned out to be nothing but a gold digger, hiding behind a preceived notion of "seeking true love".
Peace
Do you genuinely believe a "brother/sister-like relationship" would work between unrelated heterosexual male & females? Seriously? What makes you think that, because it really doesn't look like the case in reality. Quranic commandments reinforce quranic commandments and lead away from bad, not towards. In any case, polygyny is permitted quranically and if you don't like it, you know what you have to do.
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Do you genuinely believe a "brother/sister-like relationship" would work between unrelated heterosexual male & females? Seriously? What makes you think that, because it really doesn't look like the case in reality. Quranic commandments reinforce quranic commandments and lead away from bad, not towards. In any case, polygyny is permitted quranically and if you don't like it, you know what you have to do.
Br. OPF,
I can see that you are furiously in favour of polygyny, which I respect. But I will say that I did indicate in my post to which you have responded above, that the only need that can be fulfilled by polygyny is sexual, which you have just asserted above. I would again ask, is there any other need that polygyny can satisfy? It's a simple question and not intended to be a condescending one. I am just interested in know what the real world is meting out nowadays.
Peace
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Salam Br. Sharp001,
On the first paragraph.. got it!
Sorry if I missed something...For the second paragraph, what I was trying to imply is the condition for polygyny in 43 is so very difficult to adhere to that it becomes virtually impractical in today's world. I mean think about it. You are only allowed multiple marriages if you fear injustice to the orphans. Can anyone tell me what possible forms of injustice could there be to orphans, which would prompt another marriage?
This is why I asked about if you think men who have kids then abondon the women and children do you think this would fit into injustice?
that the only need that can be fulfilled by polygyny is sexual, which you have just asserted above. I would again ask, is there any other need that polygyny can satisfy? It's a simple question and not intended to be a condescending one. I am just interested in know what the real world is meting out nowadays.
Br. there is much more to marriage than sex. If sex is the only bond that holds a marriage together, I'd doubt that that marriage would last long. There is much more in the spiritual, mind, and soul of another person that contribuites to a good marriage and partnership that goes beyond mere sex. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with sex, but that there's much more than just sex. So to think that any marriage (not only poly).. is just for sex, imo, is an unrealistic view.
What needs does a marriage in general satisfy?
Peace.. peace
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this woman is not a victim, she is a willing participant... she milked men for what she could, and when things weren't going her way she blew the whistle
anyone who thinks that one gender cheats any more or any less than the other is simply fooling themself
Salaam everyone
Alhumdullilah another day!AaRon so its Poor Lord Archer ?he was milked??he was not a participant just poor man and this yuk woman blew the whistle on this brilliant writer who managed to sell his books from jail and is still doing very well in this monogamous society?
Make the most of monogamyBest regrds
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exactly dear
that's why i yucked up there Farida (first part of aaron's statement) and no i am not defending the guys...
second statement; sure, except if they all cheat homosexually...
peacelk
brickwallhere we go another truth seeker who thinks the world is only what the Uk and USA. It is much bigger and the two most populated countries China and India have no statistics showing more women cheating than man.
You are disgusted with the idea of women getting anything in return..No she should have quietly served this man in a society professing monogamy huh?
Is this your new world order?
Best regards