Face cover: God's only flaw?
-
I do believe in freedom of expression but I also think that women who believe that ninja outfit liberates them have serious issues. It is just the extreme opposite.
I like wearing the headscarf since I converted.. maybe I just enjoy dressing up. Dressing ninjah in the West is a big no no for me - it doesn't liberate you here it gets in the way - people don't bother you here in the street. Ironically I've found in muslim countries (even Egypt) its almost essential if you want to be left alone by the local men...
My ex husband decided that I should start believing in Niqab (not to wear it just believe I was sinning for not wearing it) his justification for niqab was the 'khimar' verse. He said when Allah says in Quran for women to draw their cloaks around their chests it means to draw them over the head to cover everything showing only the eyes (to see out of) and now with modern fabrics the eyes don't even have to be seen whatever crazy or what?... sheesh
-
I don't get it, is the picture showing the lady making the plea to Allah, or those that do wrong that she is asking not to be like? o hmm
Neither ? the picture is only an example of ancient Egyptian women?s dress style.
Do you perceive anything wrong with it?
Or should they have adopted the style of Arabian women a few thousand years later?
http//www.arab2.com/arab-traditional-dress/images/saudi-palestine.gif
Above was the style in the Middle East to protect against sand winds and women wore head coverings which they pulled the ends back behind the neck to expose dresses styled with plunging necklines and verses advised instead to pull the ends forward and cover their cleavage area and to wear outer clothes over thin house garments when going outside so they won?t be bothered by those behaving like today's construction workers.
A comment from one of the girls in my family about a fashion show she modeled in with her sister who designed the dresses?
?These so called true followers bomb mosques with women and children. Oh yes they are definitely going to heaven meanwhile if I wear a pretty summer dress, I?m going to HELL??
-
stooped to eliminate the very face of women which Allah INTENTFULLY designed to be left uncovered at all times, just like the male counterpart.
uncovered at all times?
that's a little much, seeing as if god had intended us to never cover our faces he would never have created the canadian winter P
-
Salaams,
Women should adopt the style of dress that Allah tells them to, if they have faith in following the guidance that Allah gives. If so, they would prefer what Allah gives over what they desire themselves. So they would follow it to the best of their understanding at any given time. In the Jewish and Christian scriptures as well as the muslim scriptures, there has always been something to describe the dress code of women to distinguish the believing women from the women population in general. I don't know why Allah likes to single out how women dress, I just recognize that He does. There are no ayaat in Al Quran, for whatever reason that Allah choose, that specify that mean should wear jilbab or khimar, or similiar. Allahu Alim.
Human beings, including believers fail to follow a lot of the guidance that Allah gives to us. Whatever one considers the dress code from Allah in Al Quran, no one can say that not adhering to it will cause one to go to Hellfire. One can only say that not adhering to it is disobedience, and Allah forgives a lot of disobedience. We are all disobedient in some way. So advising one of what Allah says to do is only so that someone will know, then it is up to them to obey or not; not for the one giving the message to condemn them to hellfire. Allah is the One who weighs on the Day of Judgement, and who determines what is forgiven or not forgiven.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Neither ? the picture is only an example of ancient Egyptian women?s dress style.
Do you perceive anything wrong with it?
Or should they have adopted the style of Arabian women a few thousand years later?
http//www.arab2.com/arab-traditional-dress/images/saudi-palestine.gif
Above was the style in the Middle East to protect against sand winds and women wore head coverings which they pulled the ends back behind the neck to expose dresses styled with plunging necklines and verses advised instead to pull the ends forward and cover their cleavage area and to wear outer clothes over thin house garments when going outside so they won?t be bothered by those behaving like today's construction workers.
A comment from one of the girls in my family about a fashion show she modeled in with her sister who designed the dresses?
?These so called true followers bomb mosques with women and children. Oh yes they are definitely going to heaven meanwhile if I wear a pretty summer dress, I?m going to HELL??
-
Some one said the following on another forum
Can some one proficient in the classical arabic language, comment on this please? Thoughts from Sr. Samia would be appreciated.
This is not a linguistic comment, although I never heard of a "jilbaab" that covers the head. The word, and the garment, are still widely used in the Arab world (save north Africa) , which brings me to the "jilbaab" that covers the head, and maybe the face, with a hood attached to it. They do not call it "jilbaab" but "kaftaan".
My non-linguistic comment is, if the jilbaab was some garment that covers the head, what would be the point of khumur spread over it?
As for classical dictionaries, only lisaanul3arab mentions jilbaab as garment, and it has many different descriptions for it...According to it, "some" say it covers the head, some say it is an "overall,, or a khimar or something else. Nothing specific and not helping at all.
-
Salam,
I find the Jilbab argument to be quite lame since the verse in question clearly speaks about covering the breasts - no head or eye or hair or any other invented nonsence.
The better argument I have seen is the one that invokes sura 33 which claims that the prophet
s wives being ordered to speak to men from behind a veil/hijaab is a role model for all women - of course, this argument misses the remaining verses which speak of the prophets wives as being "unlike" any other women and that different laws apply to them (such as being forbidden to remarry). -
Peace,
I can really see the big picture of this, that muslim women all the times have been striving to be like the wives of the Prophet. And likely they also choosed to speak from behind a veil.
Same goes for the christians, the x-tian women all want to be like Mariam (Mary) but no one can be like her.
Maria
-
Salaam,
This issue here isn't over jilbaab, which is in a different sura from the original question about khimar. The issue is about what does "bikhumurihinna" really mean. What is a khimar? How does a woman "spread it over her chest area"?
The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!
So there can be no doubt that Allah says to women to cover their chest area with their headscarves. The only question can be is if that means that they should (1) continue to cover their heads with their headscarf and also use it to cover their chest area by spreading it over such...(2) or do they no longer use the headscarf to cover the head, but use it to cover their chest area instead.
For me personally, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion; but for me personally, I can only see number 1 as making sense because if the khimar no longer also covers the head, then it can not be a khimar and should have been given another name. Or it would have made more sense to just use a verb to say cover your chest, and not to say cover your chest "with your headscarf". By adding in "with your headscarf", using reason and logic this means that the headscarf also becomes obligatory to have in order to fulfill the command as told, IMHO.
Those who refuse to accept "khimar" as headscarf have no dictionaries or lexicons to support their view that this is not what it means specifically. They can only point to the root of the word and say that it means to cover, when the verbal form of the word is not used in the ayat in question. All the other things that they say "khimar" can mean all have their own words that are more appropiate to mean those things. This is pointed out in posts on this forum that I participated in, as well as the link that Wakas has provided.
As Salaamu Alaikum, )
Salam,
I find the Jilbab argument to be quite lame since the verse in question clearly speaks about covering the breasts - no head or eye or hair or any other invented nonsence.
The better argument I have seen is the one that invokes sura 33 which claims that the prophet
s wives being ordered to speak to men from behind a veil/hijaab is a role model for all women - of course, this argument misses the remaining verses which speak of the prophets wives as being "unlike" any other women and that different laws apply to them (such as being forbidden to remarry). -
Peace,
Ok, I have no lexicon, but I have read many times that sister Samia has explained that khimar in the lexicon is used for many things. Khimar is some kind of cloth that can cover ex. a table, a window, a body, or something else. And Quran says that women shall cover their breast with a cloth(khimar).
So a woman can take a piece of cloth like a big scarves and hang over her shoulder, why wrap it around her head?
Maria
-
Salaams SwedenMajidah,
What part of my last post didn't you understand? Let me help you again by pointing out some of it
The issue is about what does "bikhumurihinna" really mean. What is a khimar? How does a woman "spread it over her chest area"?
The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!
So there can be no doubt that Allah says to women to cover their chest area with their headscarves. The only question can be is if that means that they should (1) continue to cover their heads with their headscarf and also use it to cover their chest area by spreading it over such...(2) or do they no longer use the headscarf to cover the head, but use it to cover their chest area instead.
For me personally, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion; but for me personally, I can only see number 1 as making sense because if the khimar no longer also covers the head, then it can not be a khimar and should have been given another name. Or it would have made more sense to just use a verb to say cover your chest, and not to say cover your chest "with your headscarf". By adding in "with your headscarf", using reason and logic this means that the headscarf also becomes obligatory to have in order to fulfill the command as told, IMHO.
Those who refuse to accept "khimar" as headscarf have no dictionaries or lexicons to support their view that this is not what it means specifically. They can only point to the root of the word and say that it means to cover, when the verbal form of the word is not used in the ayat in question. All the other things that they say "khimar" can mean all have their own words that are more appropiate to mean those things. This is pointed out in posts on this forum that I participated in, as well as the link that Wakas has provided.
But since you don't believe in Al Quran as guidance from Allah anyway, why do you choose to follow Samia over what is in Al Quran and supported? (I think I gave myself the answer already.)
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Peace,
Ok, I have no lexicon, but I have read many times that sister Samia has explained that khimar in the lexicon is used for many things. Khimar is some kind of cloth that can cover ex. a table, a window, a body, or something else. And Quran says that women shall cover their breast with a cloth(khimar).
So a woman can take a piece of cloth like a big scarves and hang over her shoulder, why wrap it around her head?
Maria
-
Salaams Wakas,
I read through the entire thread that you posted below, but I am curious as to what your conclusion was based on it since you gave it here. It seems most of the discussion was between Samia and Leoxyz. The other link you provided early in this thread said
The following 10 dictionaries agree that KHIMAAR means a piece of cloth with which a woman covers her head
-
Lisaan-al-Arab by Ibn-e-Manzoor
-
Taaj-el-uroos
-
Lataif-ul-Lughat
-
Lughat-ul-Quran by Parvez
-
Dictionary of the holy Quran by Omar
-
A dictionary and glossary of the Quran by John Penrice
-
Almufradat by Raghib
-
Hans Wehrs dictionary of Modern written Arabic
-
Lane?s Lexicon
-
Al-Qamoos-ul muheet (while describing the meanings of ghifara)
Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of KHIMAAR says that ?everything that is used to cover or conceal a thing is its khimaar?. However, the same Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of ghifara says, ghifara is something worn on the head by women before wearing khimaar on the head so that ghifara protects the khimaar worn on the head from hair oil etc.
According to the above, there is overwhelming evidence that KHIMAAR was a piece of cloth that Arab women used to wear at the time of revelation of the Quran.
So Im just curious from the two links that you included as to what your understanding of "khimaar" can be or is not.
peace all,
Sister Samia and I discussed the use of "khumur" in 2431 here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14616.msg136095#msg136095Thanks a lot.
As Salaamu Alaikum, )
-
-
peace IQO, all,
The thread link I referenced contained the point I wanted to highlight, quoted below
So "khumur" is used in 2431 and since this can be the plural of "khimir" (which can mean any covering) then in terms of Classical Arabic and grammar, it is perfectly acceptable to translate it as a general covering/veil and NOT a headcover.
If "khumur" can be the plural of "khimir" AND "khimaar" then one cannot use 2431 as head cover with certainty, it can only be a possibility.
-
This issue here isn't over jilbaab, which is in a different sura from the original question about khimar. The issue is about what does "bikhumurihinna" really mean. What is a khimar? How does a woman "spread it over her chest area"?
Pakistani women who wear traditional clothes but don't wear headscarf often have a scarf draped around their chest area. They could justify this from some interpretations of Quran. It can be interpreted mean to bring your headscarf around your chest - but how does it mean suggest to cover the face (the title of the post), to get to that needs a lot of reading between the lines (or in the case of the Saudi approved english interpretaion of Quran - just put your opinion in the brackets so everyone who reads it thinks your interpretion is actually Quran)
-
Peace Waka, all,
From the same link that you provided
........
2. Khumur is the plural of "khimaar" and "khimirr", both of which also mean "ANY COVERING of a thing" or "ANYTHING by which a thing is veiled, or covered" according to Lane's Lexicon (Book 1, page 809, also see under the root Kh-M-R in Project Root List, LL Volume 2, page 445)Then you said
Bro. Tanveer, are you sure Lane says "khimaar" can mean "ANY COVERING of a thing" or "ANYTHING by which a thing is veiled, or covered". In Lane this description follows "khimirr".......
And then Tanveer responded
Peace bro Wakas,
It gives definitions of "khimaar" and then says as also "khimirr"; does that not make them synonymous ?
Anyway, the word used in the Qur'aan is "khumur" which is also the plural of "khimirr", and can thus mean "any coverings".
And then another important post which was
Salaam all
This is what I understood from this link
What is clear from this paragraph is that the word "khimaar" does not show!!
khumur; khumr and akhmira are all plurals of the word khimir, which is another word for naSeef. NaSeef is pertaining to women, whereas khimir pertains to both men and women.naSeef is a khimir, but khimir is not a naSeef.
Of which another responder responded later by saying
Dear Samia
The question is not who is cover his head .
The question is what is "Khimaar" and for what it is used for.
You said that Khimaar is not for females.
I gave you the references from all Arabic dictionaries.Instead of being harsh refute with references as I have put .
You did not put even a single reference
The exact Lisan ul Arab text which I have put before.= And Khimar is for the woman
= And that is Naseef
= And "Al-khimar is said to be anything with which a woman covers her head .If you have some reference bring out .I will appreciate.You have been discussing this topic ,that is good.But I need proper references .
The bottom line still remains that Allah said "bikhumurihinna". If you take your definition, then it is saying "to draw over your chest areas with YOUR covers", which is very ambigious for a specific word "khimar", that clearly at that time was also used to mean "headscarf"; whether it be for men or women. In the ayat in reference, it is clearly being used for women because that is the audience being spoken to as is evidenced in many ways, not just the "hinna".
To assume that Allah meant any "cover", when the people at that time clearly understood the word to mean "a headcover" for either men or women, is to NOT take the best meaning of Al Quran. It is ignoring the obvious to win an argument based off of a perconceived desired outcome.
Whether "khumur" is the plural of "khimaar or khimir" makes absolutely no difference since the audience addressed is women. Not only did Tanveer only mention the incomplete definition from Lane, but you all are acting as if Lane is the only authority to be considered on the definition and primary use of this word; which clearly from the other link you gave which I posted again; ALMOST ALL, IF NOT ALL ARABIC DICTIONARIES AND LEXICONS TAKE "KHUMUR" TO MEAN "HEADSCARVES".
Samia also quoted
Back to your post. You ask if there is another word whose plural is khumur, and without thinking, you quote another old post of mine (thank you very much, because in it is the answer for your question). Have your eyes wide open and read. beware, don't mix "khimaar" with "khimir".
"khumur; khumr and akhmira are all plurals of the word khimir, which is another word for naSeef. NaSeef is pertaining to women, whereas khimir pertains to both men and women.
naSeef is a khimir, but khimir is not a naSeef."
These in no way prove that "khimaar" or "khimir" are used as a general cover instead of specifically a headscarf. They prove just the opposite by the fact that it is clear from the definition above that it can be used as a headscarf for both men and woman.
So how does it being the plural or not of both words...in any way prove that it is not a headscarf?
peace IQO, all,
The thread link I referenced contained the point I wanted to highlight, quoted below
If "khumur" can be the plural of "khimir" AND "khimaar" then one cannot use 2431 as head cover with certainty, it can only be a possibility.
Again, the evidence is overwhelming by use and all sources available that whether khumur is the plural of "khimaar" or "khimir"...it is still referring to a "headscarf". So how is any other conclusion reasonable?
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
-
Salaams dragonflies,
I completely understand how you and others may have come to this exact conclusion, it the headscarf is used to actually cover the chest area and not just as decoration as it sometimes is. Nevertheless, I think once the understanding is accepted that "khumur" means "headscarves", then the proper way to spread it over the chest area would have to include also keeping it on the head in order for the item not to lose it's definition; which is where I think people get lost on the issue. Therefore they try to make "khumur" mean "any covering", which negates the purpose for the ayat being specific about which cover to use.
As Salaamu Alaikum, angel
Pakistani women who wear traditional clothes but don't wear headscarf often have a scarf draped around their chest area. They could justify this from some interpretations of Quran. It can be interpreted mean to bring your headscarf around your chest - but how does it mean suggest to cover the face (the title of the post), to get to that needs a lot of reading between the lines (or in the case of the Saudi approved english interpretaion of Quran - just put your opinion in the brackets so everyone who reads it thinks your interpretion is actually Quran)
-
Salaams dragonflies,
I completely understand how you and others may have come to this exact conclusion, it the headscarf is used to actually cover the chest area and not just as decoration as it sometimes is. Nevertheless, I think once the understanding is accepted that "khumur" means "headscarves", then the proper way to spread it over the chest area would have to include also keeping it on the head in order for the item not to lose it's definition; which is where I think people get lost on the issue. Therefore they try to make "khumur" mean "any covering", which negates the purpose for the ayat being specific about which cover to use.
As Salaamu Alaikum, angel
Wa alykum salam,
I wear headscarf - however if someone feels it means just covering the chest area or general idea of modesty (I've heard the rational that at that time some women would have gone bare-breasted and it is just a command not to go around naked) I'm not going to judge them.
I'm trying to bring back on topic and ask specifically about the Face Cover/niqab. Saudi/Salafi scholars justify niqab using this verse - any rational behind that interpretation?
-
Wa alykum salam,
I wear headscarf - however if someone feels it means just covering the chest area or general idea of modesty (I've heard the rational that at that time some women would have gone bare-breasted and it is just a command not to go around naked) I'm not going to judge them.
I'm trying to bring back on topic and ask specifically about the Face Cover/niqab. Saudi/Salafi scholars justify niqab using this verse - any rational behind that interpretation?
Salaams dragonflies,
In the ayat in question, Allah says "except what must appear". If that does not include the face, I have no idea on earth what it could mean. The face, not just the eyes, is what gives us identification among many other things. So to me, Allah has made "niqaab" haraam, by ordering it to not be covered, IMHO. Allah knows best and He is the judge, not me or any other human being.
As Salaamu Alaikum, jedi
-
peace IQO,
It is ironic you re-quote me parts of the thread when it is you who needs to re-read them properly.
which clearly from the other link you gave which I posted again; ALMOST ALL, IF NOT ALL ARABIC DICTIONARIES AND LEXICONS TAKE "KHUMUR" TO MEAN "HEADSCARVES".
Where does it say that?
These in no way prove that "khimaar" or "khimir" are used as a general cover instead of specifically a headscarf.
You mean other than the fact Classical Arabic dictionaries mention "khimir" can be a general covering?
So how does it being the plural or not of both words...in any way prove that it is not a headscarf?
Who said anything about it being proven it is not a headscarf?
And lastly, let's keep our discussion based on facts and not baseless claims
It is ignoring the obvious to win an argument based off of a perconceived desired outcome.
