Face cover: God's only flaw?
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Peace Waka, all,
From the same link that you provided
........
2. Khumur is the plural of "khimaar" and "khimirr", both of which also mean "ANY COVERING of a thing" or "ANYTHING by which a thing is veiled, or covered" according to Lane's Lexicon (Book 1, page 809, also see under the root Kh-M-R in Project Root List, LL Volume 2, page 445)Then you said
Bro. Tanveer, are you sure Lane says "khimaar" can mean "ANY COVERING of a thing" or "ANYTHING by which a thing is veiled, or covered". In Lane this description follows "khimirr".......
And then Tanveer responded
Peace bro Wakas,
It gives definitions of "khimaar" and then says as also "khimirr"; does that not make them synonymous ?
Anyway, the word used in the Qur'aan is "khumur" which is also the plural of "khimirr", and can thus mean "any coverings".
And then another important post which was
Salaam all
This is what I understood from this link
What is clear from this paragraph is that the word "khimaar" does not show!!
khumur; khumr and akhmira are all plurals of the word khimir, which is another word for naSeef. NaSeef is pertaining to women, whereas khimir pertains to both men and women.naSeef is a khimir, but khimir is not a naSeef.
Of which another responder responded later by saying
Dear Samia
The question is not who is cover his head .
The question is what is "Khimaar" and for what it is used for.
You said that Khimaar is not for females.
I gave you the references from all Arabic dictionaries.Instead of being harsh refute with references as I have put .
You did not put even a single reference
The exact Lisan ul Arab text which I have put before.= And Khimar is for the woman
= And that is Naseef
= And "Al-khimar is said to be anything with which a woman covers her head .If you have some reference bring out .I will appreciate.You have been discussing this topic ,that is good.But I need proper references .
The bottom line still remains that Allah said "bikhumurihinna". If you take your definition, then it is saying "to draw over your chest areas with YOUR covers", which is very ambigious for a specific word "khimar", that clearly at that time was also used to mean "headscarf"; whether it be for men or women. In the ayat in reference, it is clearly being used for women because that is the audience being spoken to as is evidenced in many ways, not just the "hinna".
To assume that Allah meant any "cover", when the people at that time clearly understood the word to mean "a headcover" for either men or women, is to NOT take the best meaning of Al Quran. It is ignoring the obvious to win an argument based off of a perconceived desired outcome.
Whether "khumur" is the plural of "khimaar or khimir" makes absolutely no difference since the audience addressed is women. Not only did Tanveer only mention the incomplete definition from Lane, but you all are acting as if Lane is the only authority to be considered on the definition and primary use of this word; which clearly from the other link you gave which I posted again; ALMOST ALL, IF NOT ALL ARABIC DICTIONARIES AND LEXICONS TAKE "KHUMUR" TO MEAN "HEADSCARVES".
Samia also quoted
Back to your post. You ask if there is another word whose plural is khumur, and without thinking, you quote another old post of mine (thank you very much, because in it is the answer for your question). Have your eyes wide open and read. beware, don't mix "khimaar" with "khimir".
"khumur; khumr and akhmira are all plurals of the word khimir, which is another word for naSeef. NaSeef is pertaining to women, whereas khimir pertains to both men and women.
naSeef is a khimir, but khimir is not a naSeef."
These in no way prove that "khimaar" or "khimir" are used as a general cover instead of specifically a headscarf. They prove just the opposite by the fact that it is clear from the definition above that it can be used as a headscarf for both men and woman.
So how does it being the plural or not of both words...in any way prove that it is not a headscarf?
peace IQO, all,
The thread link I referenced contained the point I wanted to highlight, quoted below
If "khumur" can be the plural of "khimir" AND "khimaar" then one cannot use 2431 as head cover with certainty, it can only be a possibility.
Again, the evidence is overwhelming by use and all sources available that whether khumur is the plural of "khimaar" or "khimir"...it is still referring to a "headscarf". So how is any other conclusion reasonable?
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Salaams dragonflies,
I completely understand how you and others may have come to this exact conclusion, it the headscarf is used to actually cover the chest area and not just as decoration as it sometimes is. Nevertheless, I think once the understanding is accepted that "khumur" means "headscarves", then the proper way to spread it over the chest area would have to include also keeping it on the head in order for the item not to lose it's definition; which is where I think people get lost on the issue. Therefore they try to make "khumur" mean "any covering", which negates the purpose for the ayat being specific about which cover to use.
As Salaamu Alaikum, angel
Pakistani women who wear traditional clothes but don't wear headscarf often have a scarf draped around their chest area. They could justify this from some interpretations of Quran. It can be interpreted mean to bring your headscarf around your chest - but how does it mean suggest to cover the face (the title of the post), to get to that needs a lot of reading between the lines (or in the case of the Saudi approved english interpretaion of Quran - just put your opinion in the brackets so everyone who reads it thinks your interpretion is actually Quran)
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Salaams dragonflies,
I completely understand how you and others may have come to this exact conclusion, it the headscarf is used to actually cover the chest area and not just as decoration as it sometimes is. Nevertheless, I think once the understanding is accepted that "khumur" means "headscarves", then the proper way to spread it over the chest area would have to include also keeping it on the head in order for the item not to lose it's definition; which is where I think people get lost on the issue. Therefore they try to make "khumur" mean "any covering", which negates the purpose for the ayat being specific about which cover to use.
As Salaamu Alaikum, angel
Wa alykum salam,
I wear headscarf - however if someone feels it means just covering the chest area or general idea of modesty (I've heard the rational that at that time some women would have gone bare-breasted and it is just a command not to go around naked) I'm not going to judge them.
I'm trying to bring back on topic and ask specifically about the Face Cover/niqab. Saudi/Salafi scholars justify niqab using this verse - any rational behind that interpretation?
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Wa alykum salam,
I wear headscarf - however if someone feels it means just covering the chest area or general idea of modesty (I've heard the rational that at that time some women would have gone bare-breasted and it is just a command not to go around naked) I'm not going to judge them.
I'm trying to bring back on topic and ask specifically about the Face Cover/niqab. Saudi/Salafi scholars justify niqab using this verse - any rational behind that interpretation?
Salaams dragonflies,
In the ayat in question, Allah says "except what must appear". If that does not include the face, I have no idea on earth what it could mean. The face, not just the eyes, is what gives us identification among many other things. So to me, Allah has made "niqaab" haraam, by ordering it to not be covered, IMHO. Allah knows best and He is the judge, not me or any other human being.
As Salaamu Alaikum, jedi
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peace IQO,
It is ironic you re-quote me parts of the thread when it is you who needs to re-read them properly.
which clearly from the other link you gave which I posted again; ALMOST ALL, IF NOT ALL ARABIC DICTIONARIES AND LEXICONS TAKE "KHUMUR" TO MEAN "HEADSCARVES".
Where does it say that?
These in no way prove that "khimaar" or "khimir" are used as a general cover instead of specifically a headscarf.
You mean other than the fact Classical Arabic dictionaries mention "khimir" can be a general covering?
So how does it being the plural or not of both words...in any way prove that it is not a headscarf?
Who said anything about it being proven it is not a headscarf?
And lastly, let's keep our discussion based on facts and not baseless claims
It is ignoring the obvious to win an argument based off of a perconceived desired outcome.
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Salaams Wakas, all
peace IQO,
It is ironic you re-quote me parts of the thread when it is you who needs to re-read them properly.
Where does it say that?
Remember the link you provide which sums up what I said in posts in this forum even before I was aware of this link
The following 10 dictionaries agree that KHIMAAR means a piece of cloth with which a woman covers her head
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Lisaan-al-Arab by Ibn-e-Manzoor
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Taaj-el-uroos
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Lataif-ul-Lughat
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Lughat-ul-Quran by Parvez
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Dictionary of the holy Quran by Omar
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A dictionary and glossary of the Quran by John Penrice
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Almufradat by Raghib
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Hans Wehrs dictionary of Modern written Arabic
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Lane?s Lexicon
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Al-Qamoos-ul muheet (while describing the meanings of ghifara)
Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of KHIMAAR says that ?everything that is used to cover or conceal a thing is its khimaar?. However, the same Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of ghifara says, ghifara is something worn on the head by women before wearing khimaar on the head so that ghifara protects the khimaar worn on the head from hair oil etc.
According to the above, there is overwhelming evidence that KHIMAAR was a piece of cloth that Arab women used to wear at the time of revelation of the Quran.
You mean other than the fact Classical Arabic dictionaries mention "khimir" can be a general covering?
Other than the partial quote from Lanes, please state the "classical arabic dictionaries" that mention "khimir" as a general covering, and don't mention it's primary use and meaning as a "headscarf".
Who said anything about it being proven it is not a headscarf?
The point is that many of you are trying to say that it can mean any "cover" and therefore "headscarf" is NOT the meaning. This is very erroroneous and takes the word out of CONTEXT within the ayat mentioned from Al Quran.
And lastly, let's keep our discussion based on facts and not baseless claims
Other than quoting the actual arabic from Al Quran...EVERYTHING IS a claim and opinion, of which you have expressed many of your own throughout this forum. Your attempt to be neutral only shows that you dont understand CONTEXT within Al Quran and want to try to stick to "fact based possible definitions" only, which in itself is a baseless claim since the definitions themselves come from outside of Al Quran.
If you don't expect opinions and claims when discussing items in a forum, I would suggest you to not post. Your desire is unrealistic at best.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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IQO,
I will repeat once more for you and highlight it
which clearly from the other link you gave which I posted again; ALMOST ALL, IF NOT ALL ARABIC DICTIONARIES AND LEXICONS TAKE "KHUMUR" TO MEAN "HEADSCARVES".
Where does it say that?
Other than the partial quote from Lanes, please state the "classical arabic dictionaries" that mention "khimir" as a general covering, and don't mention it's primary use and meaning as a "headscarf".
I know Lane does. I have not checked others. Perhaps others can clarify this point.
The point is that many of you are trying to say that it can mean any "cover" and therefore "headscarf" is NOT the meaning.
In future, if you meant others and not me, then please clarify this.
Other than quoting the actual arabic from Al Quran...EVERYTHING IS a claim and opinion
So if I say Lane's Lexicon says XYZ, and it does say XYZ, is this also a claim and opinion? If so, you clearly do not understand the words you use.
If you don't expect opinions and claims when discussing items in a forum, I would suggest you to not post. Your desire is unrealistic at best.
I was referring to your statement "It is ignoring the obvious to win an argument based off of a perconceived desired outcome.". You do not know if I have preconceived notions or not, or what I do and do not desire... only God knows. So, let's stick to an evidence-based discussion and leave the other judgements to God, surely He is the best Judge.
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Salaams Wakas, all
All of what you say is meaningless and jiborish. Let's get to the point...
What do almost all arabic, classical arabic or any arabic dictionaries and lexicons say that "khimaar" means?
What do almost all arabic, classical arabic or any arabic dictionaries and lexicons say that "khimiir" means?
If you find this out, maybe you will stop pretending that "khumur" being the plural of one or both of them has any significance to the ayat in question.
The bottom line is that "khumur" is understood as "headscarves" whether used by men or women...and it has nothing to do with sunnism or any ism because they most commonly refer to the term that covers the woman's head as "hijab".
This is an opinion "It is really sad and disturbing that so many try to dilute Al Quran based on the weakess possible meaning of words to make a new deen that is as far away from what they experienced in sunnism as possible. They seem more intent on being completely opposite to anything in sunnism than they are about the actual TRUTH!"
When Allah tells you to take the best meaning from Al Quran...clearly the best and most obvious meaning of "khumur" is "headscarves". That is a fact sir.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
IQO,
I will repeat once more for you and highlight it
Where does it say that?
I know Lane does. I have not checked others. Perhaps others can clarify this point.
In future, if you meant others and not me, then please clarify this.
So if I say Lane's Lexicon says XYZ, and it does say XYZ, is this also a claim and opinion? If so, you clearly do not understand the words you use.
I was referring to your statement "It is ignoring the obvious to win an argument based off of a perconceived desired outcome.". You do not know if I have preconceived notions or not, or what I do and do not desire... only God knows. So, let's stick to an evidence-based discussion and leave the other judgements to God, surely He is the best Judge.
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The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!
That's not true.
Lisaanul 3arab is hesitant about it. It mentions a hadith where the word khimaar is used...for men. This means the hadith literature doe not have this word used specifically for women. It also mentions " a woman of nice scent".
Al- Sihaah's only contribution is a woman good in "khimra", without explaining what it means.
Maqaayeesil Lugha Same as above, except that it explains it as has a nice "khimaar". Either it is contrary to Lisaanulearab, or it is not, and for ML "khimaar" means scent .
Al Muheet Its only entry is that khimaar mean "naseef" (which also goes under many explanations mainly that it's something like a sarong, which its name indicates naseef like nisf means half).Besides, the word used is "khumur", not khimaar. Khumur is also the plural of another word which does not mean head scarf.
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Does the Qur'an say to use a particular piece of clothing? Does it say to cover the bosom? Does it say to cover the bosom in a particular way? Does it say in this particular expresion to cover anything beside the bosom? Does it say to create a new piece of clothing for believers in order to cover the bosom? Does it say to use a common piece of clothing which can be used in different ways and that therefore required no mending or transformation in order to cover the bosom with it and therefore avoided the expense on new clothing? Does it say that it matters that if the bossom is covered with any other piece of clothing it is no good? Is it legitimate to understand that all muminat in the whole world must wear khumur (whatever this word designates) and not anything else in order to cover their bossom. If a particular piece of clothing is really determinant in this aya, what shape had the khumur in question? ?Were they like a hat, like a casquete, like the old church veils of catholic women, like a turban? Were they may be like mexican rebozos, or like classic shawls that can be used to wrap onself around at will against cold or for dressing up, for protection against the elements, etc.? How big were they? were they in different sizes or one size? Is there any mention of this piece of clothing contemporaneous of the revelation of the Qur'an apart from the Qur'an?
Salaam
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Dear IQO I think you missed this post by
Waqas
Also, from my experience of the forum, there seems to be a prevalent myth that the head cover is not in AQ. That is not entirely accurate. It would be more correct to say that there is no 100% clear commandment that women must wear the head cover, but a reasonable case can be made for it using AQ
He has exactly mentioned what is the prevailing thought at this forum of majority.
I agree with his post except the stating that "there is no 100% clear commandment" then it must not be QURAN.IQO
The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!Even if it is then what? are you sure Allah means this use of Khimar?
We have to go into the history and the culture, and try to understand why was this ordered and then by Ijtihaad decide weather it is necessary now?
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That's not true.
Sure it's true. I didn't say that like any other word it can't have more than one meaning...but the clear consensus is that is primarily is understand as a headscarf. You can doubt that all you want, but the clear evidence as already been presented. And you know it has.
Lisaanul 3arab is hesitant about it. It mentions a hadith where the word khimaar is used...for men. This means the hadith literature doe not have this word used specifically for women. It also mentions " a woman of nice scent".
First, I never said "WOMAN'S" headscarf....I said "headscarf". Whether it is used for men or women in Lisaanul 3arab is irrevelant because it is clearly used for the women being spoken to in the ayat in question from Al Quran. Other meanings that don't fit the context of 2431 are irrevelant unless you can show how it can fit the context.
Al- Sihaah's only contribution is a woman good in "khimra", without explaining what it means.
Then it has no significance. I'm not gonna look it up there to see if you left off anything, but unless you have something to provide that says he DOESN'T ever consider it a headscarf, it's irrelevant.
Maqaayeesil Lugha Same as above, except that it explains it as has a nice "khimaar". Either it is contrary to Lisaanulearab, or it is not, and for ML "khimaar" means scent .
You can't just say that ML is contrary to Lisannulearab, explain your logic if there is some. I don't see it contrary at all. A khimaar can be a headscarf for men or women, but only women were mentioned to continue to use it to cover their chest area with by Allah. There is no refuting that, no matter what you think "khimaar" is.
So are you saying that 2431 is saying to draw over their chest area with their nice scent? )
Al Muheet Its only entry is that khimaar mean "naseef" (which also goes under many explanations mainly that it's something like a sarong, which its name indicates naseef like nisf means half).
You already explained your understanding of naseef, but what is your point her in regards to the context of khimaar's use in 2431? How are you using this statement as anything to refute that khimaar is a headscarf?
Besides, the word used is "khumur", not khimaar. Khumur is also the plural of another word which does not mean head scarf.
As you said, "khumur" is the plural of "khimaar".
Since we are being evasive.....what is this other word that you say khumur is the plural of...AND MORE IMPORTANTLY....WHAT DOES THIS WORD MEAN SINCE YOU SAY IT DOESN'T MEAN HEADSCARF?
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Salaams Wakas,
You asked one basic question. "Where does it say that "khumur" means "headscarves".
Don't confuse me not giving a response to each line you wrote as not being able to answer the ONLY one question that you asked during that post. It just wasn't necessary since the answer is so obvious...but to help you
Khimaar means headscarf. Khumur is the plural of khimaar, which by the definition of PLURAL means that it means "headscarves". This is not rocket science.
If you want to claim that Khumur is also the plural of another word, whatever the case...you CAN NOT say that it is not the plural of khimaar, which means headscarf; therefore headscarves.
So as I said before, the rest of what you said was meaningless jiborish.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
IQO,
Do not confuse being unable to answer my questions as that must mean they are meaningless/jiborish.
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Salaams Wakas,
You asked one basic question. "Where does it say that "khumur" means "headscarves".
Don't confuse me not giving a response to each line you wrote as not being able to answer the ONLY one question that you asked during that post. It just wasn't necessary since the answer is so obvious...but to help you
Khimaar means headscarf. Khumur is the plural of khimaar, which by the definition of PLURAL means that it means "headscarves". This is not rocket science.
If you want to claim that Khumur is also the plural of another word, whatever the case...you CAN NOT say that it is not the plural of khimaar, which means headscarf; therefore headscarves.
Peace.
Okay..if there are two different meanings for a word, which one makes more sense in its usage? If we have one meaning headscarf and one meaning any covering, if we take IQO and we say we will use the headscarf definition and the word is the plural, how is it logical for women to take their headscarves plural and cover their chest? why would a woman wear more than one headscarf at a time? Is that really logical?
YTV
So as I said before, the rest of what you said was meaningless jiborish.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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As Salaamu Alaika Raj-ah,
Dear IQO I think you missed this post by
Waqas
He has exactly mentioned what is the prevailing thought at this forum of majority.
I agree with his post except the stating that "there is no 100% clear commandment" then it must not be QURAN.You are right, there is a clear COMMANDMENT in Al Quran regarding the use of "khumur" for believing women. (other women are not addressed there). "Bikhumurihinna" clearly means "with their khumur". So the issue becomes what is khumur and how to do the commandment with it. But the commandment itself can not be questioned. Why is Allah so specific in this commandment for believing women only? (not believing or non believing men, or non believing women)
IQO
The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!Even if it is then what? are you sure Allah means this use of Khimar?
What other possible use of "khumur" could fit the meaning? Allah says to take the best meaning from Al Quran, He knows that all words have many meanings and that is why we have definitions in dictionaries. It is perfectly reasonable to believe that Allah is going to use the most common use and understanding of the word to the people being addressed to benefit them in understanding.
It is those who choose to render this very SPECIFIC commandment from Allah to believing women, MEANINGLESS, that try to make the word "khumur" mean something very general...so that in essence, there is no real command in 2431 except to not walk around with your breast out; which is ridiculous. I think it makes those who want separate themselves as far away from sunnism as possible more comfortable..and women who don't like to cover, it makes them feel that they are still obeying Allah, even if they just wear a bra. Why else would people go to such great lengths to try to say that "khumur" is not headscarves when it clearly DOES mean that primarily, even if you can find other weaker meanings for the word?
We have to go into the history and the culture, and try to understand why was this ordered and then by Ijtihaad decide weather it is necessary now?
I personally don't have to go to history and culture to try to understand why this was ordered. As a person of faith in Allah, I only have to know that He ordered it and accept that it is to be obeyed, willingly by those who say they have trusting faith in Him.
So there can be NO DECIDING whether or not it is relevant now because Allah's commandments in Al Quran are for all time as far as I am concerned as a believer. I meantion in a previous post what can be misunderstood about the command, and I gave my response as to why I understand it the way that I do. I will repost it here for you for ease of reading it
The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!
So there can be no doubt that Allah says to women to cover their chest area with their headscarves. The only question can be is if that means that they should (1) continue to cover their heads with their headscarf and also use it to cover their chest area by spreading it over such...(2) or do they no longer use the headscarf to cover the head, but use it to cover their chest area instead.
For me personally, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion; but for me personally, I can only see number 1 as making sense because if the khimar no longer also covers the head, then it can not be a khimar and should have been given another name. Or it would have made more sense to just use a verb to say cover your chest, and not to say cover your chest "with your headscarf". By adding in "with your headscarf", using reason and logic this means that the headscarf also becomes obligatory to have in order to fulfill the command as told, IMHO.
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Salaams YTV,
Headscarves is plural in the ayat because women is also plural. If headscarf was not plural, how would one scarf be used by ALL the believing women? ???
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Peace.
Okay..if there are two different meanings for a word, which one makes more sense in its usage? If we have one meaning headscarf and one meaning any covering, if we take IQO and we say we will use the headscarf definition and the word is the plural, how is it logical for women to take their headscarves plural and cover their chest? why would a woman wear more than one headscarf at a time? Is that really logical?
YTV
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Salaam IQO
You are completely missing the point. Just as a reminder, my comment was about you talking of a consensus. There is no consesus. For xample (of you missing the point) look at this comment of yours
So are you saying that 2431 is saying to draw over their chest area with their nice scent?
nope
I am saying that if a dictionary enters "khimaar" only in this context, then you can hardly speak of consensus. And it is not one or two, but three dictionaries.
I'm not gonna look it up there to see if you left off anything
Why should you? You have already looked up ALL classical dictionaries and found there was a consensus. You can tell without any extra effort from you what I've left off.
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Salaams Samia,
You know what said and that is why you answered the way you did. The overall consensus by almost ALL arabic dictionaries and lexicons is that "khimaar" means "headscarf". That's it primary meaning; whether or not any other meanings can be consider. And I am not talking about all words derived from the root of KH-M-R.
I didn't miss your point, you are diverting attention from the important facts and issues. The dictionaries you mentioned, I didn't see that they gave a different definition of khimaar that didn't or couldn't include it as a headscarf.
So how come you put so much other emphasis on this word that "khumur" can be the plural of, but you won't give it and it's definition, not to mention how it would fit into the context of 2431? hmm
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Salaam IQO
You are completely missing the point. Just as a reminder, my comment was about you talking of a consensus. There is no consesus. For xample (of you missing the point) look at this comment of yours
nope
I am saying that if a dictionary enters "khimaar" only in this context, then you can hardly speak of consensus. And it is not one or two, but three dictionaries.
Why should you? You have already looked up ALL classical dictionaries and found there was a consensus. You can tell without any extra effort from you what I've left off.
