Face cover: God's only flaw?
-
Salaams Wakas,
You are boring me with your ridiculous assertions. You are playing with words in a way that suggests you don't know what you are talking about. Trying to make irrevelant points to give yourself relevance. Your logic is flawed and devoid of any contextual understanding from Al Quran. I can't help you with that, make "salaat" to Allah and ask for His help on guiding you with that. And stop taking my statements out of context trying to make a non-proven irrelevant point for yourself...it's really a waste of time and adds nothing to the understanding of what is being discussed. Read my last post to Samia and enjoy what you promote.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
IQO then backtracks and changes what he said to
It is YOU who says "khumur" means "headscarves" NOT "almost all, if not all Arabic dictionaries".
Is it still a "claim" if it is clearly stated in a Classical Arabic dictionary? Perhaps you should have took my advice and looked up the meanings of the words you use.
2 points proven. Not bad for a non-rocket scientist who speaks meaningless jiborish ;D
-
Salaam IQO
From the ten dictionaries you cited, only three could be considered classical Arabic dictionaries Lisaanul 3arab, Al Muheet and Tajul 3aroos (Lane's is a translation of Tajul 3aroos, that's why I did not count it though it is classical). Hans Wehr is what it calls itself Dictionary of Modern written Arabic. Others copy from, mostly, Tajul 3aroos (if it does say khimaar is headscarf. I am taking your word), since other dictionaries do not go into details as what khimaar is definitely.
Here are two classical dictionaries, out of the three, which you cited as proving that khimaar is head scaf. It seems that those who mentioned a plural for it had (khumur) as a third choice; the first being "akhmira"
Al Muheet
.
Translation
Khimar is naseef; like the khimirr; and anything that covers something is its khimaar. Plural akhmira; khumr and khumurLisaanul 3arab .
.Khimar for the woman is the naseef, and it is said khimaar is what the woman covers her head with.Plural akhmira, khumr and khumur. takhammarat and ikhtamarat bilkhimaar wore the khimaar; khammarat ra'sahaa blkhimaar covered her head with it.(so just wering a khimaar does not mean she covered her head, unless explicitly mentioned, as underlined. Therefor, khimaar is just a cover, as is already explained in these dictionaries).
As for the third, Tajul 3aroos, I did not check it. I'll leave it for those who are following this thread to check Lane's under Kha Meem Raa
Peace Sister Samia,
Again I appreciate you putting this information up. This information was useful to me. I do not know why someone would call you a leader, but I think you are calm level headed person who uses facts and doesn't display alot of emotion, but uses logic and reason with supporting evidence , and this is why I enjoy to hear your side as well, not because I think you are our leader(how ridiculous..if anyone knows what we beelive in here the idea of having a leader is absurd), for God's sake you know how some men feel about women leaders obvious from yesterday's assassination.
I also wanted to post a snipet from an article that I read, and get some feedback on this, since it is relevant to this issue
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments ... that they should draw their KHIMAR over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands.." Y. Ali's translation, with the word khimar put back in place.
"Khimar" is an Arabic word that means, cover, any cover, a curtain is a Khimar, a dress is a Khimar, a table cloth that covers the top of a table is a Khimar, a blanket can be used as a Khimar..etc. The word KHAMRA used for intoxicant in Arabic has the same root with Khimar, because both covers, the Khimar covers (a window, a body, a table . etc.) while KHAMRA covers the state of mind. Most of the translators, obviously influenced by Hadith (fabrications) translate the word as VEIL and thus mislead most people to believe that this verse is advocating the covering of the head.
In 2431 God is asking the women to use their cover (khimar)( being a dress, a coat, a shawl, a shirt, a blouse, a tie, a scarf . . . etc.) to cover their bosoms, not their heads or their hairs. If God so willed to order the women to cover their heads or their hair, nothing would have prevented Him from doing so. GOD does not run out of words. GOD does not forget.
God did not order the women to cover their heads or their hair. He was not waiting for a Scholar to put the words for Him.
The Arabic word for CHEST, GAYB is in the verse (2431), but the Arabic words for HEAD, (RAAS) or HAIR, (SHAAR) are NOT in the verse. The commandment in the verse is clear - COVER YOUR CHEST OR BOSOMS, but also the fabrication of the scholars and most of the translators is clear by claiming- cover your head or hair.
The last part of the verse (2431) translates as, "They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies." The details of the body can be revealed or not revealed by the dress you wear, not by your head cover.
Notice also the expression in 2431, "They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary." This expression may sound vague to many because they have not understood the mercy of God.
The word KHAMRA used for intoxicant in Arabic has the same root with Khimar, because both covers. How does this root make a difference? Also, I believe somewhere there is another article that talks about the things that should be covered are the private parts and he definition of private parts in arabic showed that it was things that had openings and closings then went on to show how it said except those that protrude should not be covered which alter went on to show that the things that protrude are on the head, does anyone recall ever reading that article I cant seem to recall where I read it. But anyways it was highly insightful and full of good information. Showing that the things that had openings like the buttocks, vaginal area, under the arms etc should be covered but not those that protrude such as the nose eyes ears head etc.....
Can someone recall this article? or has the information I am referring to?
Appreciate it!
YTV
-
i know what consensus means, it appears you still have difficulty with the concept
those which do not put forth any meaning cannot be included as part of a consensus
Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of KHIMAAR says that ?everything that is used to cover or conceal a thing is its khimaar?. However, the same Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of ghifara says, ghifara is something worn on the head by women before wearing khimaar on the head so that ghifara protects the khimaar worn on the head from hair oil etc.
why does it say "wearing khimaar on the head" if the accepted meaning of khimaar is a head cover? wouldn't they have just said "wearing khimaar"?
nobody is my leader, least of all the likes of you, no matter how many forum nicks you put it in )
-
Peace.
What is all qamoos?
IS that a person or a book?
YTV
-
Salaam IQO
I hope that when you start your message to me with "peace" you mean it, and don't haste to accuse me of being "deceitful" or "cunning" before you read my reply to you.
First, I guess you didn't want to answer my last question about "khimirr" since you realised that it also is considered a headscarf...understandable.
My post was not intended to answer your question. It was, since the first post, to refute your claim about a consensus on the meaning of khimaar.
Moreover, I haven't seen this question of yours."anything that covers something is it's khimaar", still doesn't negate that "khimar is naseef". It primary meaning is still "headscarf",
Of course I am not negating that it means naseef. On the contrary, I emphasized this here and on another thread. It seems that you don't know what a naseef is. How you deduce from this that "its primary meaning is headscarf" is beyond logic.
I guess you feel like 2431 is saying "draw over your chest area with YOUR anything that covers"....and surely for you in arabic that makes better sense since you don't like to wear a headscarf.
That's really pathetic!! "Any thing that covers something is its khimaar" would not need a genius to deduce that, khimaar of a table table cloth; khimaar of a bed bedsheet; khimaar of person their clothes...How about "Draw your clothes to cover your chests"?
What is "wore the khimaar"? Wore the cover? What cover? How about "headscarf"? Yes, I thought so. But I guess to you it means "covered with the cover". what's before it has no significance to you.
See above and activate your imagination.
Maybe you can understand "ikhtamarat alkhimaar"? What's the meaning of ikhtamara? "Wear the dress/clothes; get dressed" rings a bell?Next, you add in your meaning in parenthesis to the definition to mislead those reading it as if it was there. That's very cunning if you ask me, even if you did put it in parenthesis.
If I put it in paranthesis, and even you were able to understand that it is not part of the dictionary and were not mislead, no one else would be mislead. They are smarter than that. They know what it means to put something between parenthesis. If you don't, I am not surprised.
Even the transliteration that you gave is wrong, unless you miscopied it. Where is the blkhimaar in that definition in arabic? It makes a difference if it is there or not, clearly. Either way, lets see what it means.
It if it supposed to be there, then it doesn't say "covered her head with it", you perfectly well know that that translation should be "covered her head with KHIMAAR", not IT. Why would you try to mislead people to make your point when you know better?
Lisaanul 3arab .
.Khimar for the woman is the naseef, and it is said khimaar is what the woman covers her head with.Plural akhmira, khumr and khumur. takhammarat and ikhtamarat bilkhimaar wore the khimaar; khammarat ra'sahaa blkhimaar covered her head with it.(so just wering a khimaar does not mean she covered her head, unless explicitly mentioned, as underlined. Therefor, khimaar is just a cover, as is already explained in these dictionaries).
I really don't understand why this much-a-do-about nothing. The underlined sentence is "takhammarat bilkhimaar wa-khtamarat", and this is my translation for it. Do you expect the dictionary to write (takhammarat bilkhimaar wa-khtamarat alkhimaar)? The point is the variable verb patterns. As for your claim that it should be (covered her head with the khimaar and not with it), still I do not see what the point is, yet, you have it in bold
khammarat bihi ra'saha (word for word) she covered with it her head.So, what's there in Leoxyz post that makes you feeling victorious? What's in his post that I did not mention or that I concealed?
So this is a waste of my time
I agree with this. A poor posting.
-
Ace of Hearts
A well-written article. Thanks. Who are you? If you wish you may introduced yourself via email.
Peace,
Edip -
Salaam all
My general impression about women dress as cited in dictionaries is that it seems that women covered nothing but their heads. Even when words whose meanings very clearly denote a specific part of the body (naseef half = waist) or 3ajeera (behind), and are explained as such, the authors of some dictionaries felt they had to mention that it is to be a cover for the head.
For example Naseef is explained in all dictionaries as meaning (nisf half) and they would go further to say that it is something like "a sarong", which is quite logical, but then some of them feel obliged to add that it is said to be a head cover. In the Sudan, the verb "nasafat" means she moved her body from the waist down while dancing (and it is only this part of the body that is moved).Even the word "jilbaab" which is still in use as similar to a cloak, some would say (for a woman it is a headscarf). Yet, and I repeat, YET no dictionary had the courage to quote verse 2431 as a proof of their claim regarding khumur They know they are twisting the meaning, and hence jumping from word to another until we have ALL words for clothes having a potential meaning of headscarf.
So what exactly did women wear before Islam?
I was really surprised to find that dictionaries did know what women used to wear. I had to use my imagination from the fact that Sudanese culture (being an inland culture) holds the key for this question, like many other keys regarding some Arabic vocabulary, thought to be specific to the Sudan (from my MA thesis on the style of speech of Sudanese women). Just digging in this Sudanese culture/vocab and from what I know that...Women in the Sudan, up to the turn of the century (before the foreign influence) used to wear a skirt-like gear made of leather strings or slit leather from the hips down to he knees. And I am not talking about the African Sudanese, but about Arab Muslim women (including women within my mother/grandmother generation, who were at least half Arabs). On the night of their wedding ceremony, brides would get rid of this (rahT) and wear an overall. Until now we have the tradition of (cutting the rahT) to mean ("Sudanese" wedding ceremony),
..and searching for this seemingly exclusive Sudanese word, rahT, I found what Classical Arabic dictionaries, under the entry (rahaT) sayLisaanul 3arab
(..and the "rahT" is leather measuring between the navel and the knee, wore by the menstruating woman ( confused), and in pre islamic era, "men" used to circumbulate naked and women in rahTs (so the menustrating woemn is just an inaccurate addition - me)
Al Sihaah fil lugha
RihaaT (pl), singular rahT (a peace of )leather cut into strings
Al qamoosul Muheet
a (piece of) leather slit on the sides from down so one can walk while (wearing it) worn by kids and menustrating women. or a (piece of leather) slit in strings.
I personaly do not understand why menustrating women wear this slit leather. I think it is just a meaningless addition and it was what women used to wear. Women walking bare breasted was not an extra-ordinary costum. It was almost a universal habit.
Comments are welcome, please
-
The Quran is logical.
is there anything sexual about a woman's hair anyway? that it MUST be covered? hmm
-
Dictionaries are no subsitute for al-quran. In this case, Khamr's primary meaning in Al-Quran is that of an intoxicant i.e. something hidden. "Head-cover" makes 2431 sound absolutely ridiculous.
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent, and let them place their HEADcovers over their chests...
-
Salaam IQO
Salaams Samia
I hope that when you start your message to me with "peace" you mean it, and don't haste to accuse me of being "deceitful" or "cunning" before you read my reply to you.
I send offers of peace to anyone. I would even want peace with my enemies or anyone I would be at war with. Offering peace doesn't mean you don't speak the truth to go along with it. It is only offering peace.
My post was not intended to answer your question. It was, since the first post, to refute your claim about a consensus on the meaning of khimaar.
First, let's look at what "consensus" is
Main Entry con?sen?sus
Pronunciation \kn-sen(t)-ss
Function noun
Usage often attributive
Etymology Latin, from consentire
Date 1843
1 a general agreement unanimity <the consensus of their opinion, based on reports?from the border ? John Hersey> b the judgment arrived at by most of those concerned <the consensus was to go ahead>Clearly if you had read my posts on the issue thoroughly, you SHOULD have been able to ascertain that I was using consensus in this manner bolded above.
While I said "ALL", if you notice how I said I used the term, this means that it includes "most of those concerned".
Nevertheless, 3 that doen't mention it as a headscarf (if she is correct), but don't mention it as "NOT A HEADSCARF", definitely don't change the fact that the majority do consider "khimaar" a headscarf! If you want to say that the majority don't consider it a headscarf primarily, then you need to bring at least a minimum of 11 dictionaries that don't include this definition in it.
If you want to also pick on the word "consensus", then feel free to make your feeble arguments; the bottom line is that the MAJORITY of all arabic dictionaries and lexicons agree that "khimaar" is a headscarf.
Moreover, I haven't seen this question of yours.
So how come you put so much other emphasis on this word that "khumur" can be the plural of, but you won't give it and it's definition, not to mention how it would fit into the context of 2431? hmm
Of course I am not negating that it means naseef. On the contrary, I emphasized this here and on another thread. It seems that you don't know what a naseef is.
Lisaanul3arab says under "khimaar"
For men cover of the head; for women it is called "naSeef".
Looking up "naSeef"
It is said that it is the head cover, but the famous poet Annaabighal Thubiaani used it to mean something like a "sarong". Another linguist says it is an "overall", worn over all the woman's clothes.
It seems that lisaanul3arab does not have a clear cut meaning for "head cover for women", it just says "it is said that..". However, it is used in hadeeth literature as head cover for men (specifically mentioned in relation to the prophet) according to lisaanul3arabHow you deduce from this that "its primary meaning is headscarf" is beyond logic.
Lisaanul3arab says under "khimaar"
For men cover of the head; for women it is called "naSeef".
Looking up "naSeef"
It is said that it is the head cover,Quote from IQO
I guess you feel like 2431 is saying "draw over your chest area with YOUR anything that covers"....and surely for you in arabic that makes better sense since you don't like to wear a headscarf.That's really pathetic!! "Any thing that covers something is its khimaar" would not need a genius to deduce that, khimaar of a table table cloth; khimaar of a bed bedsheet; khimaar of person their clothes...How about "Draw your clothes to cover your chests"?
The bottom line still remains that Allah said "bikhumurihinna". If you take your definition, then it is saying "to draw over your chest areas with YOUR covers", which is very ambigious for a specific word "khimar", that clearly at that time was also used to mean "headscarf"; whether it be for men or women. In the ayat in reference, it is clearly being used for women because that is the audience being spoken to as is evidenced in many ways, not just the "hinna".
To assume that Allah meant any "cover", when the people at that time clearly understood the word to mean "a headcover" for either men or women, is to NOT take the best meaning of Al Quran. It is ignoring the obvious to win an argument based off of a perconceived desired outcome.
.... "Bikhumurihinna" clearly means "with their khumur". So the issue becomes what is khumur and how to do the commandment with it. But the commandment itself can not be questioned. Why is Allah so specific in this commandment for believing women only? (not believing or non believing men, or non believing women)
What other possible use of "khumur" could fit the meaning? Allah says to take the best meaning from Al Quran, He knows that all words have many meanings and that is why we have definitions in dictionaries. It is perfectly reasonable to believe that Allah is going to use the most common use and understanding of the word to the people being addressed to benefit them in understanding.
It is those who choose to render this very SPECIFIC commandment from Allah to believing women, MEANINGLESS, that try to make the word "khumur" mean something very general...so that in essence, there is no real command in 2431 except to not walk around with your breast out; which is ridiculous. I think it makes those who want separate themselves as far away from sunnism as possible more comfortable..and women who don't like to cover, it makes them feel that they are still obeying Allah, even if they just wear a bra. Why else would people go to such great lengths to try to say that "khumur" is not headscarves when it clearly DOES mean that primarily, even if you can find other weaker meanings for the word?
See above and activate your imagination.
Maybe you can understand "ikhtamarat alkhimaar"? What's the meaning of ikhtamara? "Wear the dress/clothes; get dressed" rings a bell?Those who refuse to accept "khimar" as headscarf have no dictionaries or lexicons to support their view that this is not what it means specifically. They can only point to the root of the word and say that it means to cover, when the verbal form of the word is not used in the ayat in question. All the other things that they say "khimar" can mean all have their own words that are more appropiate to mean those things. This is pointed out in posts on this forum that I participated in, as well as the link that Wakas has provided.
If I put it in paranthesis, and even you were able to understand that it is not part of the dictionary and were not mislead, no one else would be mislead. They are smarter than that. They know what it means to put something between parenthesis. If you don't, I am not surprised.
Enough people in here don't have the resources or understanding of arabic to be able to ascertain it as I did. That's no knock on them....that's pointing out that you surely already know this and are either over estimating the influence that that type of writing has, or you did it intentionally...hence my reference to cunningness and deceitfulness.
I really don't understand why this much-a-do-about nothing. The underlined sentence is "takhammarat bilkhimaar wa-khtamarat", and this is my translation for it. Do you expect the dictionary to write (takhammarat bilkhimaar wa-khtamarat alkhimaar)? The point is the variable verb patterns. As for your claim that it should be (covered her head with the khimaar and not with it), still I do not see what the point is, yet, you have it in bold
What is "wore the khimaar"? Wore the cover? What cover? How about "headscarf"? Yes, I thought so. But I guess to you it means "covered with the cover". wow what's before it has no significance to you.
khammarat bihi ra'saha (word for word) she covered with it her head.
Those who refuse to accept "khimar" as headscarf have no dictionaries or lexicons to support their view that this is not what it means specifically (primarily). They can only point to the root of the word and say that it means to cover, when the verbal form of the word is not used in the ayat in question. All the other things that they say "khimar" can mean all have their own words that are more appropiate to mean those things. This is pointed out in posts on this forum that I participated in, as well as the link that Wakas has provided.
The following 10 dictionaries agree that KHIMAAR means a piece of cloth with which a woman covers her head
-
Lisaan-al-Arab by Ibn-e-Manzoor
-
Taaj-el-uroos
-
Lataif-ul-Lughat
-
Lughat-ul-Quran by Parvez
-
Dictionary of the holy Quran by Omar
-
A dictionary and glossary of the Quran by John Penrice
-
Almufradat by Raghib
-
Hans Wehrs dictionary of Modern written Arabic
-
Lane?s Lexicon
-
Al-Qamoos-ul muheet (while describing the meanings of ghifara)
Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of KHIMAAR says that ?everything that is used to cover or conceal a thing is its khimaar?. However, the same Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of ghifara says, ghifara is something worn on the head by women before wearing khimaar on the head so that ghifara protects the khimaar worn on the head from hair oil etc.
According to the above, there is overwhelming evidence that KHIMAAR was a piece of cloth that Arab women used to wear at the time of revelation of the Quran.
So, what's there in Leoxyz post that makes you feeling victorious? What's in his post that I did not mention or that I concealed?
Who said anything about feeling victorious? There is no competition here between me and you or anybody else here as far as I am concerned. You can compete with yourself in delusion and ignoring the obvious if you like; that's your own personal choice.
I think if you read the post, you were proven erroroneous on part of your claim...that you never were able to correct even though the posting continued.
Again, continue and enjoy your beliefs and to promote them...surely Allah takes into account all things from all of us.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
-
-
Salaams House M.D.,
If using "headscarf" makes 2431 sound ridiculous to you, it is because you are missing KEY words in the ayat.
"bikhumurihinna" let the draw over their chest area WITH THEIR HEADSCARF.
peace
Dictionaries are no subsitute for al-quran. In this case, Khamr's primary meaning in Al-Quran is that of an intoxicant i.e. something hidden. "Head-cover" makes 2431 sound absolutely ridiculous.
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent, and let them place their HEADcovers over their chests...
-
Salaam IQO, all
I am glad you quoted all my entries and showed that, contrary to your accusation, I am not hiding any meaning mentioned in the dictionaries, even if I do not agree with it. The difference between you and me is that I read all the entry and mention other material that shows that headscarf is a forced meaning. All dictionaries tend to have the original meaning and then twist it towards "headscarf". For example, lisaanul3arab says it is a cover, and goes as far as saying "khammarat ra'saha bihi "bil khimaar" covered her head with khimaar why her head? Do you say I wear shoes on my feet, or I say I wear the bra on my chest? This is what you fail to grasp analytical study, to find out the truth of the matter. Another example is of "naseef", which, from its meaning, is "half" something. Some linguists say it is an overall (maybe overall the 3awra ;D , which is the lower half of the person. This is still prevailing in many countries and was till recently worn by women in the Sudan, a replacement of the rahT) and a poet uses it in the sense of a sarong; but magically it becomes "headscarf". Same goes to "3ajeera" and "jilbaab".
My question, why in all entries of khimaar, no dictionary cited the famous verse?
This is the same with "nasakha" when they cite the correct meaning (=copy/confirm) and then twist towards the forced meaning (to delete), citing an Arab saying (the sun nasakhat the shadow) and claim that it means the sun deletes the shadow, but do not cite the concerned verse! Perhaps they know it is false, and they do not want to take the responsibility of altering the God's words in both verses. Those who do not reflect, run happily with this example, unaware that the sun does not delete the shadow, but copies an object in the form of a shadow. Darkness deletes shadows. The same with "khimaar/whatever =headscarf". They run with a forced entry or two, ignoring the main signs that this is just a false, forced meaning.Have you ever tried to find out what women used to wear in pre islamic era? Read my previous post please.
I hope this encourages you to be more analytical in reading any Arabic old book (including dictionaries). Otherwise, please let's agree to disagree.
-
The Quran is logical.
is there anything sexual about a woman's hair anyway? that it MUST be covered? hmm
All the traditionalists will tell you that "OF COURSE? Women's hair arouses men enormously". and how could it be otherwise? Everything in women is sexual, just their face and palms can be uncovered. (And that, I fear, till they get women to cover all the rest, afterwards the struggle will start to cover also the face and the palms, because finally, can there be anything more sexual than a woman's lips. And after that, the mere thought that a woman could be with her whole sex walking in the street just like that will also be a real provocation...
Pandering to that kind of abuse is just like temptation, the moment an opening is offered to the suitor, the other openings will follow the moment the women accept to be coerced into dressing up to their face and palms to suit the whims of contorted minds, the rest will follow.
So, some men (or women, I don't care) like to play the musical instrument of women's clothing and unclothing. Some of these obsessional individuals like to dress it in religion and invent commandments Allah naver gave, but in fact it is a shameless, self-seeking, indecent voyerism into things that do not concern them, that do not affect them and to which they are not invited and on which they have no say. Dressing is to feel protected and beautified according to 26.3, and not for pandering to anybody's obssessions. If somebody needs to go into some clothes crusade, let them go after the fashion industry and ask it to design clothes that are comfortable and dignified, and let alone heads and arms that are none of their concern.
Salaam
-
Salaam Samia, all,
I don't think that all the dictionaries and lexicons are going to extra ordinary means to make khimaar mean headscarf as you claim. The example you gave has nothing to do with the khimaar entries except that you want it to be the same so that it fits your argument. The people you cite, a poet and some unknown linguist, are not reliable references to use, but which you build your ENTIRE CASE AROUND!
Lisaanul3arab first says that it is a headscarf, period. Everything else is secondary. Most entried mention the headscarf entry first, and then the others, unlike what you are claiming that they then try to twist the meaning to headscarf.
Also, analytically, there is nothing wrong to tell someone to put their shoes on their feet. Maybe their shoes are on the floor and they want them to put them on. Also, the three usual definitions of naseef were given. Maybe you didn't read NUMBER 2.
The fact the dictionaries don't cite this ayat from Al Quran doesn't mean anything, unless you can show that all these dictionaries site which ayat any word that is used Al Quran, are contained in. Otherwise it is proof of nothing.
Your contention of have I ever tried to find out what women wore in pre Islamic times is useless. Your evidence of what women in the Sudan wore has nothing to do with when Al Quran was revealed. Al Quran tells us what they SHOULD have been wearing if they had faith in the guidance sent by Allah.
You have encourage me to do nothing because your analytical thinking is steer only to suit your own desires, IMHO.
I agree though...lets agree to disagree...and why don't you treat yourself and go out and get a nice hair do to walk around and show off to everyone. ;D Make yourself feel good that you follow Al Quran according to your understanding! sun Again, it won't bother me one bit, I see it everyday in America and don't mind! O0
But please don't expect me to take you as someone to use for serious study of Al Quran; because you know how to manipulate arabic well to suit your needs, Im much too aware for that. yes
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
-
Where people got the idea that Allah asked women to cover themselves because otherwise it will drive men sexually crazy, is beyond my reasoning. People who think that Allah doesn't concern the teachings of Al Quran with how women dress, obviously aren't reading Al Quran thoroughly.
I could care less about what "traditionalists" believe or don't believe. But it is clear that Allah clearly concerns Himself with how women dress, with no less than four ayats directly talking about the subject matter. Those who ignore this, or claim that men and women are equal in their roles defined in Al Quran, have no answer for why Allah makes this distinction in Al Quran.
Still, no one in this forum that I have seen is trying to force anyone to wear or not wear something. I haven't seen any laws created in the forum that says if you are or aren't dressed a certain way, you can't post. errrrrrrrrrrr
Those who ignore the clear commandments of Allah and try to belittle them as not important, are only trying to distort the book with their own desires and opinions.
All the traditionalists will tell you that "OF COURSE? Women's hair arouses men enormously". and how could it be otherwise? Everything in women is sexual, just their face and palms can be uncovered. (And that, I fear, till they get women to cover all the rest, afterwards the struggle will start to cover also the face and the palms, because finally, can there be anything more sexual than a woman's lips. And after that, the mere thought that a woman could be with her whole sex walking in the street just like that will also be a real provocation...
Pandering to that kind of abuse is just like temptation, the moment an opening is offered to the suitor, the other openings will follow the moment the women accept to be coerced into dressing up to their face and palms to suit the whims of contorted minds, the rest will follow.
So, some men (or women, I don't care) like to play the musical instrument of women's clothing and unclothing. Some of these obsessional individuals like to dress it in religion and invent commandments Allah naver gave, but in fact it is a shameless, sel****ing, indecent voyerism into things that do not concern them, that do not affect them and to which they are not invited and on which they have no say. Dressing is to feel protected and beautified according to 26.3, and not for pandering to anybody's obssessions. If somebody needs to go into some clothes crusade, let them go after the fashion industry and ask it to design clothes that are comfortable and dignified, and let alone heads and arms that are none of their concern.
Salaam
-
I don't understand the logical foundations that people use to say there is a quranic order to actually cover the head.
2431 - And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms
The order is to wrap the head covering over the chest, not an order to wrap it over the head. If it asked you to wrap your towels around your heads, that would not be an order to be in a constant state of showering. So why is it interpreted the other way here?
Have a headscarf => Cover your chest with it
Dont have a headscarf => Do nothing. -
The Quran is logical.
is there anything sexual about a woman's hair anyway? that it MUST be covered? hmm
Salaam,
According to Jewish religion its was Eve?s hair that made Adam lose his senses and commit sin, it is their religion that considers a woman?s hair alluring. Orthodox Jews still shave the heads of their brides so that form the very first night man would not fall for her charm like Adam did.
Best regards
farida . -
Salaams House M.D.,
If using "headscarf" makes 2431 sound ridiculous to you, it is because you are missing KEY words in the ayat.
"bikhumurihinna" let the draw over their chest area WITH THEIR HEADSCARF.
peace
Peace bro,
I am not missing any key words.Women are told to put their KHUMUR on their JUYOOB. How do you cover your chest with a head cover, isn't a hat a 'head-cover'? Is it perfectly okay for someone to cover their chest with a baseball hat ? If The God told you to cover your table with a khimar, are we covering it with a 'head-cover'?!
HEADcover makes that verse illogical.
The word "khimar" means "cover". ANY cover. A piece of cloth covering a table is a "khimar". The word "khamr" ( intoxicant) is derived from it, because it "covers" the mind, and obstructs thinking.
The Quran is simply ordering the women to put a cloth/shawl/or whatever... over their "juyyoub".
The scholars will tell you that "juyyoub" means "bosom". This is not necessarily so. The word "juyyob" actually has a general meaning "opening or orifice". Therefore, the bosom is ONE OF the juyoubs, but not the only one. (When God told Moses to put his hand in his "jayb" and made it appear white...Where did Moses put his hand??
Could it be his armpit??? Hence the armpit is one of the "juyoubs" also.The mistake of scholars is that they take words/phrases in the Quran that have general meanings, and give them specific meanings.
The word "khamr" in the Quran can mean ANY kind of intoxicant. Not just alcoholic beverages, but also drugs , hasheesh,etc.. They all qualify as "hasheesh".
Simple as that, you don't cover a table with a head-cover. You do cover the table with a COVER.
peace David,
I did a little research on this previously, here are some notes
list of occurrence
From Lane
Kha-Miim-Ra = cover/conceal/veil, become changed/altered from a former state/condition, mixed/mingled/incorporated/blended, intoxication/wine/grapes, make-up, any intoxicating thing that clouds/obscures the intellect, come upon secretly/unexpectedly, crowding of people, odour of perfume, women's head cover, man's turban, something fermented/matured?
Lane gives examples of ?the dwelling was hidden by the trees? & ?he concealed his testimony?.
Its primary signification is 'to cover'.
As far as I can tell, to say 'khumur' in 2431 means 'head cover' is an extrapolation. If one takes its core meaning, it simply means 'cover/veil'.
...and let them draw/set/cast (walyadribna) their veils/covers (bikhumurihinna) over (AAala) their breasts/bosom (juyoobihinna)...
Kha-Miim-Ra is in the plural in this verse.
I hope this has helped.
Wakas
-
My guess is that two headscarves would be needed for the purpose of the "juyoob", one would leave one of them catch cold. A shawl, on the other hand would be nice for both.
Nobody has answered many questions that I put forward in another post. Since it seems that I don't risk getting answers to my very well thought out questions, I suppose there is no harm in putting forth another one, which may shed some light on headscarves
Did women wear bras at the time when the Truthful Qur'an was revealed or wore nothing which had the same function?
Salaam