Quran inheritance mistake

Samia

Onur is correct.

411-12 along with 476 is read as a continues paragraph which have to be logically tied toghether without contradiction!

Also, you keep posting without addressing any examples above?

Inheritance distributions are mathematics and cannot be ambiguous with shares not adding up or not enough.

I know it's mathematics, but first of all we should understand the parameters before setting a formula. And it does not matter whether you read them individually or as acontinous peragraph there are some points that should not be ignored.
If the kelala has children, brothers, parents and wife, why is a kelala defined? And what makes it different from a standard person?

Undebatable, really? According to what, grammar based off tradition that says Kalala was never understood and conjectured having neither ascendants nor descendants which caused most of the contradictions as in the simple case posted?

Ex wife, brother (if kalala has spouse per 412)

1 - 1/4 wife - 1/6 brother = 7/12 unallocated?

I gave my definition of kelala. I do not know your definition when you give them all relatives. This simple case only gets into contradictions when one does not pay very good attention to the different contexts. You suggest (reading the verses as continuation) but you quickly drop this idea
Why should the wife get 1/4? This is not mentioned in case of kelala, but in continuation of 411. The deceased is not a kella, so, and in continuation with 411, there are parents. Kelala starts after that in case there are siblings and spouse

Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance) to the male, a portion equal to that of two females if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise.
412

In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to any one). Thus is it ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Most Forbearing.

In this "simple case", brother gets 1/6 and the rest goes to the spouse, whose share is not defined in this case and who is the only eligible heir left.
There are different formulae for each case, depending on who the heirs are. Unless you define the situation, you cannot put a universal formula for the inheritance.

Samia

I forgot to mention that I am not taking any credit in this explanation. It's sha7rour's explanation (and BTW he is a professor in engineering, so very much mathematician) from his book (New approach to the principles of "islamic law&quot. I checked all his formulae and could not find any contradictions so far. He also explains the different opinions of scholars and critically confirms/refutes them.

unknownuser

I know it's mathematics, but first of all we should understand the parameters before setting a formula. And it does not matter whether you read them individually or as acontinous peragraph there are some points that should not be ignored.
If the kelala has children, brothers, parents and wife, why is a kelala defined? And what makes it different from a standard person?

Kalala no father, no spouse.
4176 says if Kalala (no father, no spouse) has no child.

Simple.

I gave my definition of kelala. I do not know your definition when you give them all relatives. This simple case only gets into contradictions when one does not pay very good attention to the different contexts
.

there are no contradictions, please post a contradiction example case if you believe so.

You suggest (reading the verses as continuation) but you quickly drop this idea
Why should the wife get 1/4? This is not mentioned in case of kelala, but in continuation of 411. The deceased is not a kella, so, and in continuation with 411, there are parents. Kelala starts after that in case there are siblings and spouse

Not sure what you are asking; please post an example case and I'll solve line by line explanation.

412
And for you half what your spouses/wives left, if is not for them a child, so if was for them a child, so for you the quarter from what they left from after a bequest/will they bequeath with it or a debt
And for them the quarter from what you left, if was not for you a child, so
if was for you a child, so for them the eight from what you left from after a bequest/will you bequeath with it or a debt
And if was a man to be inherited kalalatan or a woman, and for him a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the sixth, so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the third

If you believe Kalala has no parents, please solve sister, mother

I forgot to mention that I am not taking any credit in this explanation. It's sha7rour's explanation (and BTW he is a professor in engineering, so very much mathematician) from his book (New approach to the principles of "islamic law&quot. I checked all his formulae and could not find any contradictions so far. He also explains the different opinions of scholars and critically confirms/refutes them.

Good you are not taking credit for his contradictions as shown in all the pie charts above.

Good for him that he is a professor and mathematician; not good that he has little logic.

Peace

huruf

Samia, salaam all

I do not seem to get over the point I want to and one last post I sent seems to have lost in the underworld. I will try again.

Samia, regarding Shahrour's understanding of the distribution between the children as stated in 4.11 and when compared with the distribution provided for for brethren un 4.176, what I would want is a comparison of both formulations, because there are some similarities which might be taken to indicate that it is the same formula, and that therefore the 1=2 females en both are the same and that therefore could invalidate the understanding of 4.11 as per Sharour's. I already posted a coment on this a few posts back, but would like to have this ayas examined as throughly as possible. I quote from my previous message

"In 4.11 it says it is speaking fi awladikum, thus grouping the first grade descendants, whereas it is not so formulated when dealing with the brethren. It speaks first about when there is a sister, then two sisters, and then goes onto the disribution if there both sisters and brothers. That is not done in 4.11. Also en 4.11 it says if more than two of the children are females, then they get two thirds of the succession. Whereas in 4.176 if there are two sisters, they get two thirds."

I Would be gratefully to have as detailed an analisis of these dispositions because I think we migh get some more light and precisions on the matter.

Salaam

unknownuser

Peace huruf,

Samia, salaam all

I do not seem to get over the point I want to and one last post I sent seems to have lost in the underworld. I will try again.

Samia, regarding Shahrour's understanding of the distribution between the children as stated in 4.11 and when compared with the distribution provided for for brethren un 4.176, what I would want is a comparison of both formulations, because there are some similarities which might be taken to indicate that it is the same formula, and that therefore the 1=2 females en both are the same and that therefore could invalidate the understanding of 4.11 as per Sharour's. I already posted a coment on this a few posts back, but would like to have this ayas examined as throughly as possible. I quote from my previous message

"In 4.11 it says it is speaking fi awladikum, thus grouping the first grade descendants, whereas it is not so formulated when dealing with the brethren. It speaks first about when there is a sister, then two sisters, and then goes onto the disribution if there both sisters and brothers. That is not done in 4.11. Also en 4.11 it says if more than two of the children are females, then they get two thirds of the succession. Whereas in 4.176 if there are two sisters, they get two thirds."

I Would be gratefully to have as detailed an analisis of these dispositions because I think we migh get some more light and precisions on the matter.

Salaam

the key difference is in 4176 the sisters are alone except for possibility of mother (no brothers) else there would be a contradiction.

cannot state if there are 2 sisters they get 2/3;
then in next sentence male gets equal the 2 sisters or 2/3

2/3 + 2/3 = 1 plus 1/3 too much

4176 They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in alkalalati, if (a) human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child, and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left, and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females, God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.

Samia

Kalala no father, no spouse.
4176 says if Kalala (no father, no spouse) has no child.

Simple.
.

Thiese words between paranthese Are they there in the verse or they are your understanding? Let's see verse 4176

They ask thee for a legal decision. Say Allah directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs. If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them) if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female. Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things.
(Translation by A. Y. Ali)

Samia

salaam huruf

Can you please be more precise, because Shahrour discusses many points in one problem, and I do not know which explanation to translate to you.

arista

Salam Samia,

Thanks, I get it...

Trying to solve sister, mother mother get 1/6 and sister get 5/6 ?

Samia

Salam Samia,

Thanks, I get it...

Trying to solve sister, mother mother get 1/6 and sister get 5/6 ?

Yes

huruf

Thiese words between paranthese Are they there in the verse or they are your understanding? Let's see verse 4176

They ask thee for a legal decision. Say Allah directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs. If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them) if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female. Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things.
(Translation by A. Y. Ali)

If kalala is those who do not leave descendants or ascendants why is it stated that "if a woman, who ledt no child". If it is a kalala she left no child aboviously, why is it stated?

huruf

Well, I may be wrong in assuming it, but the fact that the formula "to the male the part of two females" appears exactly alike in 4.11 and 4. 176 might serve to uphold that that is a general formulation that rules in both cases, and which even though in 4.11 it is not stated that if there are sons and daughters, the same as in 4.176 it is stated if there are brothers and sisters, it is assumed that in both cases, the the male twice the two females is a general rule when there are mixed sexes. So I ould like to know how Sharour deals with that, and any other point of view which may throw light on the matter.

SALAAM

Samia

If kalala is those who do not leave descendants or ascendants why is it stated that "if a woman, who ledt no child". If it is a kalala she left no child aboviously, why is it stated?

The literal translation is hey ask you about the kelala say God tells you if a man dies and does not have descendents, and he has a sister she will get half of what he left - and he will inherit all that she left if (when she dies) she has no descendents- and if they were two (sisters of the kelala) they get the two thirds and if they wre siblings men and women the male gets twice the share of the two females.

This woman is the sister of the kelala, and she does not have to be kelala.

Samia

Well, I may be wrong in assuming it, but the fact that the formula "to the male the part of two females" appears exactly alike in 4.11 and 4. 176 might serve to uphold that that is a general formulation that rules in both cases, and which even though in 4.11 it is not stated that if there are sons and daughters, the same as in 4.176 it is stated if there are brothers and sisters, it is assumed that in both cases, the the male twice the two females is a general rule when there are mixed sexes. So I ould like to know how Sharour deals with that, and any other point of view which may throw light on the matter.

SALAAM

Shahrour confirms in this case that the formula for siblings (whether they are children or siblings of the deceased) maintain this formula, and that it is not applicable in other cases, i.e it is not a universal formula for a mixed gender heirs if they are not siblings.

unknownuser

Salaam,

Thiese words between paranthese Are they there in the verse or they are your understanding? Let's see verse 4176

They ask thee for a legal decision. Say Allah directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs. If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them) if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female. Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things.
(Translation by A. Y. Ali)

Use literal translation (less ambiguity) and if a meaning is uncertain leave alone; it can be derived logically

4176 They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in alkalalati, if (a) human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child, and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left, and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females, God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.

Trying to solve sister, mother mother get 1/6 and sister get 5/6 ?

Not correct -- what verses did you use? If you used below

411
so if ikhwatun/brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6

Now use same methodology to solve

Ex either spouse, mother?
Ex either spouse, mother, sister?
Ex either spouse, mother, 2 sisters
Ex either spouse, mother, 2 sisters, brother?

Ex either spouse, parents?
Ex either spouse, parents, sister?
Ex either spouse, parents, 2 sisters
Ex either spouse, parents, 2 sisters, brother?

Ex 2 sisters, brother?

The above have to be consistent.

Shahrour confirms in this case that the formula for siblings (whether they are children or siblings of the deceased) maintain this formula, and that it is not applicable in other cases, i.e it is not a universal formula for a mixed gender heirs if they are not siblings.

Which formula, case example please?

411 distributions are not the same as in 4176 which states

...and for him a sister (i.e. only 1 sister), so for her 1/2
...and if they were two (i.e. only sisters present), so to them the 2/3
...and if they were brethren men and women (i.e. mixed any combination), so to the male equal fortune the two females

Cannot state case if 2 females 2/3 then give different instructions for the case of two females -- that's a contradiction!

Peace

Samia

Salaam,

Use literal translation (less ambiguity) and if a meaning is uncertain leave alone; it can be derived logically

Salaam Eid
I already posted my literal translation when I needed it (

The literal translation is hey ask you about the kelala say God tells you if a man dies and does not have descendents, and he has a sister she will get half of what he left - and he will inherit all that she left if (when she dies) she has no descendents- and if they were two (sisters of the kelala) they get the two thirds and if they wre siblings men and women the male gets twice the share of the two females.

. The Arabic version in this post was what mattered because I was asking you if some words you added were actually in the verse.

411
so if ikhwatun/brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6

Now use same methodology to solve

Ex either spouse, mother?
Ex either spouse, mother, sister?
Ex either spouse, mother, 2 sisters
Ex either spouse, mother, 2 sisters, brother?

Ex either spouse, parents?
Ex either spouse, parents, sister?
Ex either spouse, parents, 2 sisters
Ex either spouse, parents, 2 sisters, brother?

Ex 2 sisters, brother?

The above have to be consistent.

Which formula, case example please?

411 distributions are not the same as in 4176 which states

It's verse 11. I do not have to go through all the 8 assumptions you are giving as examples, because the question is that the deceased left a mother and a sister.
Of course the distributions are not the same with verse 4176, because these are two different settings
411 deceased is not kelala (has a mother)
4176 deceased is a kelala does not have a mother.

So far I do not know how you understand a kelala, although I asked you before. Maybe that's why you are complicating the issue.

In a nutshell
The heirs as mentioned in the qur'aan are

Children. These are the highest level of heirs they always inherit, and only parents and spouse of deceased may share with them. Siblings of deceased are curtailed by them.
Parents of deceased they also always inherit, but can share with spouses, children and siblings of the deceased.
Spouses of deceased same as parents
Siblings their only chance to inherit is when the deceased does not have children.
The kelala is someone who does not have children nor parents. Shares for their siblings are explained in case they have spouse or not.
If any of the above heirs exist alone, they take all the inheritance, since no other relatives are mentioned as eligible.
Therefore, if children are/is of same sex and are alone, they take all they inheritance, divided eaually.

If you disagree with any of the above points, please ask me for evidence.
Only then can one speak of a formula.

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

411 deceased is not kelala (has a mother)
4176 deceased is a kelala does not have a mother.

So far I do not know how you understand a kelala, although I asked you before. Maybe that's why you are complicating the issue.

In a nutshell
The heirs as mentioned in the qur'aan are

Children. These are the highest level of heirs they always inherit, and only parents and spouse of deceased may share with them. Siblings of deceased are curtailed by them.
Parents of deceased they also always inherit, but can share with spouses, children and siblings of the deceased.
Spouses of deceased same as parents
Siblings their only chance to inherit is when the deceased does not have children.
The kelala is someone who does not have children nor parents. Shares for their siblings are explained in case they have spouse or not.
If any of the above heirs exist alone, they take all the inheritance, since no other relatives are mentioned as eligible.
Therefore, if children are/is of same sex and are alone, they take all they inheritance, divided eaually.

If you disagree with any of the above points, please ask me for evidence.
Only then can one speak of a formula.

OK we'll do two examples to make it simple

Ex wife, mother, 2 sisters, brother
Ex husband, father, mother, sister, brother

Therefore the deceased in either case is NOT Kalala according to Samia/Shahrour;
thus these verses are NOT applicable because they are ONLY applicable when the deceased IS a Kalala

412...and if was a man to be inherited kalalatan or a woman, and for him a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the sixth, so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the third

4176 They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in alkalalati, if (a) human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child, and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left, and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females, God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.

Now please solve the two cases using

411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child, {not applicable}
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3, {not applicable }
so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6

Ex wife, mother, 2 sisters, brother
1/4 wife, 1/6 mother -- what do we give 2 sisters and brother?

Ex husband, mother, father, sister, brother
1/2 husband, 1/6 mother -- what do we give the father, sister, and brother?

Where are the instructions? Also have to ensure there is no shortage or surplus.

Peace

Samia

Ex wife, mother, 2 sisters, brother
1/4 wife, 1/6 mother -- what do we give 2 sisters and brother?

Ex husband, mother, father, sister, brother
1/2 husband, 1/6 mother -- what do we give the father, sister, and brother?

Where are the instructions? Also have to ensure there is no shortage or surplus.

Peace

Thanks for pointing out what I missed!
8 Siblings only inherit with the presence of either the parents or the spouse, but not both (i,e parents and spouse).
411

if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth.

We do not have a case where parents and spouse are present but no children. Verses 411 and 12 only discuss the share of the parents (11) and the spouse (12) in absence and presence of children, presuming spouses or parents still exist. If it's the share of the parent that is discussed in the absence of children, the rest of the inhertance automatically goes to the spouse; and if it's the share of the spouse that's mentioned, the rst of the inheritance goes automatically to the parent. Presence of both parents and spouse curtails the siblings, just like the presence of children alone curtails them.

From verse 411 up o this part of verse 412 (
In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts), the deceased is presumed to have parents and spouse, and the share of either of them is decided depending on the presence or absence of children, whereas the share of the others is not, so the rest of the heritage goes to the one whose share is not fixed.
The remainder of verse 412, together with verse 4176, discusses the case of the kelala. You do not finde in them any mention of presence or absence of parents or of children, but only spouse and/ or siblings.

According to this, in these cases you mention, where both the parents and the spouse are there, siblings inherit nothing.

unknownuser

Thanks for pointing out what I missed!
8 Siblings only inherit with the presence of either the parents or the spouse, but not both (i,e parents and spouse).
411

if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth.

According to this, in these cases you mention, where both the parents and the spouse are there, siblings inherit nothing.

OK you are almost there seeing that Kalala is also spouseless...

...according to Qur'an because when there is a spouse siblings get NOTHING!

Let's take out the spouse so we ONLY have parents and siblings.

Therefore, deceased in either case is NOT Kalala according to Samia/Shahrour;
thus these verses are NOT applicable because they are ONLY applicable when the deceased IS a Kalala

412...and if was a man to be inherited kalalatan or a woman, and for him a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the sixth, so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the third

4176 They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in alkalalati, if (a) human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child, and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left, and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females, God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.

Now please solve using

411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child, {not applicable}
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3, {not applicable }
so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6

Ex mother, 2 sisters, brother
1/6 mother -- what do we give 2 sisters and brother?

Ex mother, father, sister, brother
1/6 mother -- what do we give the father, sister, and brother?

Where are instructions for distributing shares to 3 unknown variables and amongst different mix of siblings?

Peace

Samia

OK you are almost there seeing that Kalala is also spouseless...

How do you enfer from this that kalala is spousless? What I said is very clear. Siblings inherit only when at most either the spouse or a parent is there. If both are present, they inherit nothing. They will therefore always inherit a kalala because a kalala has at most just a spouse (no parents and no children).

Ex mother, 2 sisters, brother
1/6 mother -- what do we give 2 sisters and brother?

Ex mother, father, sister, brother
1/6 mother -- what do we give the father, sister, and brother?

Ex 1 Since we have the share of the parent/s fixed, the rest of the inharetnce goes automatically to the rest of the heirs; in this case we apply to the male the share of the two females;
Ex1 Both parents are present. No children each parent gets 1/6; and the rest goes to the sister and brother, equally shared.

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

How do you enfer from this that kalala is spousless? What I said is very clear. Siblings inherit only when at most either the spouse or a parent is there. If both are present, they inherit nothing. They will therefore always inherit a kalala because a kalala has at most just a spouse (no parents and no children).

Only have a little time -- see below...

Ex 1 Since we have the share of the parent/s fixed, the rest of the inharetnce goes automatically to the rest of the heirs; in this case we apply to the male the share of the two females;

Ex1 Both parents are present. No children each parent gets 1/6; and the rest goes to the sister and brother, equally shared.

Read Qur'an -- both parents shares are fixed ONLY when there are children. No child father share variable.

411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child, {not applicable}
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3, {if only parents, not applicable}
so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6

Please redo...

Ex mother, 2 sisters, brother
1/6 mother -- what do we give 2 sisters and brother?

Ex mother, father, sister, brother
1/6 mother -- what do we give the father, sister, and brother?

Where are instructions for distributing shares to 3 unknown variables and amongst different mix of siblings?

Also, you stated dividing siblings share for case of Kalala (the male the share of the two females, etc).

When God says Kalala, why do you apply it to a deceased who according to you is NOT Kalala?